Author Topic: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?  (Read 4501 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Andy-In_over_my_headTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • Country: us
Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« on: February 05, 2017, 10:01:32 pm »
I don't think I need to write much more... the Subject is the majority of the question...
Thanks!

Oh, and by "over time" I mean like years.... not mS and such..
"I'd rather be buried then ungrateful to be given life and food on the table. And in a world this shaky and unstable, we've got to be less hateful!"
 

Offline retrolefty

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1648
  • Country: us
  • measurement changes behavior
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2017, 10:07:21 pm »
I don't think I need to write much more... the Subject is the majority of the question...
Thanks!

Oh, and by "over time" I mean like years.... not mS and such..

 Decrease in time only if you remove turns on the inductor.  :-+

 

Offline Andy-In_over_my_headTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • Country: us
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2017, 10:16:57 pm »


 Decrease in time only if you remove turns on the inductor.  :-+
[/quote]
 :-DD
Thanks, I love a good (or bad) joke sometimes.... haha.
Some metals decay over time. I'm far from educated on that subject.
I feel I entered into Pandoras box when I tried to figured this out on my own.
"I'd rather be buried then ungrateful to be given life and food on the table. And in a world this shaky and unstable, we've got to be less hateful!"
 

Offline Benta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6088
  • Country: de
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2017, 10:19:01 pm »
The answer is yes, but it is extremely rare.
One mechanism is remanence (residual magnetization), where an inductor not designed for DC current is subjected to such.
This will shift its B-H curve, apparently reducing the inductance.
Degaussing can cure this, but the (circuit) root cause should be analyzed.

There are other possibilies, eg, core corrosion, but that would be immediately recognizable.

BTW, I suppose you mean milliseconds, abbreviated "ms", and not millisiemens, "mS"

« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 10:22:19 pm by Benta »
 
The following users thanked this post: Andy-In_over_my_head

Offline Andy-In_over_my_headTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • Country: us
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2017, 10:19:43 pm »
Please let me clarify one thing.... Or 2 things....

WITHOUT REMOVING TURNS OR OVERHEATING AND MELTING THE COAT OVER THE COPPER...
"I'd rather be buried then ungrateful to be given life and food on the table. And in a world this shaky and unstable, we've got to be less hateful!"
 

Offline Andy-In_over_my_headTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • Country: us
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2017, 10:23:16 pm »
The answer is yes, but it is extremely rare.
One mechanism is remanence (residual magnetization), where an inductor not designed for DC current is subjected to such.
This will shift its B-H curve, apparently reducing the inductance.
Degaussing can cure this, but the (circuit) root cause should be analyzed.

There are other possibilies, eg, core corrosion, but that would be immediately recognizable.

Is there a way to tell if the inductor has been designed for AC?
I have the luck of a bald man whos been given hair clippers for his birthday....
"I'd rather be buried then ungrateful to be given life and food on the table. And in a world this shaky and unstable, we've got to be less hateful!"
 

Offline retrolefty

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1648
  • Country: us
  • measurement changes behavior
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2017, 10:26:01 pm »
The answer is yes, but it is extremely rare.
One mechanism is remanence (residual magnetization), where an inductor not designed for DC current is subjected to such.
This will shift its B-H curve, apparently reducing the inductance.
Degaussing can cure this, but the (circuit) root cause should be analyzed.

There are other possibilies, eg, core corrosion, but that would be immediately recognizable.

Is there a way to tell if the inductor has been designed for AC?
I have the luck of a bald man whos been given hair clippers for his birthday....

 An inductor only works with AC. At DC an inductor is just a resistor of some nominal resistance.
 
The following users thanked this post: Andy-In_over_my_head

Offline Vtile

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1146
  • Country: fi
  • Ingineer
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2017, 10:30:09 pm »
The answer is yes, but it is extremely rare.
One mechanism is remanence (residual magnetization), where an inductor not designed for DC current is subjected to such.
This will shift its B-H curve, apparently reducing the inductance.
Degaussing can cure this, but the (circuit) root cause should be analyzed.

There are other possibilies, eg, core corrosion, but that would be immediately recognizable.

Is there a way to tell if the inductor has been designed for AC?
I have the luck of a bald man whos been given hair clippers for his birthday....

 An inductor only works with AC. At DC an inductor is just a resistor of some nominal resistance.
DC inductor can be also solenoid or some other type of electromagnet or a coil in meter movement.
 

Offline Benta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6088
  • Country: de
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2017, 10:30:24 pm »
Quote
Is there a way to tell if the inductor has been designed for AC?

Not really.
Inductors designed for DC will usually have an air gap in the core, but it's mostly hidden under the windings. Only a destructive inspection will give the answer... and there are also DC specified coils without gap.
Frankly, only a datasheet of the inductor will help here.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Magnetics.
 

Offline Benta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6088
  • Country: de
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2017, 10:34:43 pm »
Quote
An inductor only works with AC. At DC an inductor is just a resistor of some nominal resistance.

That was not the question. Stop muddying the waters, please.

Quote
DC inductor can be also solenoid or some other type of electromagnet or a coil in meter movement.

That was ALSO not the question.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 10:41:59 pm by Benta »
 

Offline Vtile

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1146
  • Country: fi
  • Ingineer
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2017, 10:39:24 pm »
Quote
DC inductor can be also solenoid or some other type of electromagnet or a coil in meter movement.

That was ALSO not the question.
You are correct.

I must add that I didn't calculate the chokes as a "DC inductor". Rise or fall of the edge =/= DC in my brains. :(
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 10:57:19 pm by Vtile »
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2017, 10:51:57 pm »
I've had parts of the core crumble and fall out, that will cause the value to decrease. It's not very common though unless equipment has been abused.
 

Offline Benta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6088
  • Country: de
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2017, 10:53:44 pm »
One other source of reduced inductance over time is operation at elevated temperature.
Some ferrites and iron cores don't like this.
Again, it's practically impossible to analyze by just inspecting the part.

 

Offline wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 17405
  • Country: lv
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2017, 11:01:25 pm »
An inductor only works with AC. At DC an inductor is just a resistor of some nominal resistance.
Inductor "works at DC", say in power rail to block AC ripple. but if High DC current flows, core becomes saturated and inductance drops drastically. So yes, indeed, inductor can be made for DC by avoiding core saturation at high DC current.
 

Offline Benta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6088
  • Country: de
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2017, 11:06:39 pm »
Also didn't read the question. Sigh...
 
The following users thanked this post: Vtile

Offline CatalinaWOW

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5385
  • Country: us
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2017, 11:24:03 pm »
I don't think I need to write much more... the Subject is the majority of the question...
Thanks!

Oh, and by "over time" I mean like years.... not mS and such..

 Decrease in time only if you remove turns on the inductor.  :-+

True, but not as silly as it sounds.  Insulation failure can lead to shorted turns which removes them.

 As a direct answer to the OPs question, no, not without something failing (technically that is true for resistors and capacitors also), but there are a couple of failure mechanisms that can occur.  Inductors that have no ferromagnetic core components have fewer failure mechanisms.  Coils which are low density (translates to thick insulation) have fewer failures.  Coils which mechanically restrain the coils from movement have fewer failure mechanisms.
 

Offline Andy-In_over_my_headTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • Country: us
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2017, 04:36:52 am »


 An inductor only works with AC. At DC an inductor is just a resistor of some nominal resistance.
[/quote]
Though not my question... I'm glad you said this cause I honestly didn't think of this until you wrote it....
Even though I'm only 4 months into this all with an infinite amount to learn (infinite because I'm not sure how much there is to learn yet)
I am still very aware of a whole lot more then... at least anyone in my family knows....
I don't know... I guess it just makes sense after I melt a couple breadboards....
But all the inductors I've played with all have to have alternating current (mosfet or 555 or whatever) to increase the voltage.... so I guess that makes sense...
Again, I'm sure there are countless obstacles I haven't encountered... but it's the small statements the bridge gaps for me...
So thanks...
"I'd rather be buried then ungrateful to be given life and food on the table. And in a world this shaky and unstable, we've got to be less hateful!"
 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7549
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2017, 04:57:46 am »
Yes, if the core is deteriorating physically or chemically, like rusting & chipping at this welding transformer.  >:D


Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2017, 07:15:18 am »
Holy crap, did he dredge that thing out of the ocean!?
 

Offline Cupcakus

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: us
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2017, 07:22:54 am »
Looks like it still works, I think that picture alone answers the original question.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 22131
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: Can an Inductors value decrease over time or for other reasons?
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2017, 01:29:10 pm »
In fact, unequivocally yes!

But not usually to a significant degree.

In the absence of any quirky weasel conditions, like corrosion or residual magnetization or fault conditions.

Ferromagnetic materials age over time.  The permeability drops approximately as log(time) since the material was last cooled below the Curie temperature.

This effect is more familiar in ferroelectric materials: type 2 dielectrics (ceramic capacitors with X7R, Y5P, Z5U, etc. codes).  There, aging is very pronounced because the "core" is "ungapped", i.e., the electric field is applied to the dielectric and nothing else.  This is why the energy storage capability is one of the worst, among all capacitor types.  They are optimized for low impedance under 0V bias conditions, and that's it.  (Precisely the same as ferrite beads, which are optimized for high impedance under 0A bias conditions!)

Inductors don't normally suffer from aging, because the core is almost always gapped, which reduces losses and improves stability (making the change in permeability less significant).  Under carefully controlled conditions (stable temperature and humidity), you might be able to measure this change on a real part.  It will be small, less than 1%.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf