now that my hopes for Altium hobbyist edition have been dashed, now what?

[slburris]

For a couple years I've watched the little videos on the Altium web site
and concluded that these guys have put a lot of thought into how a
CAD/EDA package should work.  I've always hoped they would release
a low cost version with just schematic capture/PCB and clean up the
whole low end of the market.

Well, I think that recent events pretty much rule out any focus for
Altium on that segment of the market, so what now?

Like most of us low enders, I've been using Eagle for several years
(the non-profit license, which is still limited, but less limited than the
free versions).  I could probably spend many paragraphs
on what I consider to be broken in Eagle (parts management, what's that?),
but I'd rather discuss what might be better.

I tend to run on a bunch of different platforms, so ideally I want
something that runs on Windows, OS/X, and Linux so whereever
I am, I can work on a project.  I do spend most of my design
time on Windows.  Oh, how about storing the design
files in some documented format?

I've looked at the gEDA suite and found it to be kind of a mess,
probably because it's a disparate tools bundled together. 

I'm currently trying really hard to like DesignSpark.  I'm finding that I'm
having to make an awful lot of new parts from scratch and that's really
dragging me down.  Yes, it has some capability to convert from
Eagle and I've tried that, but it's buggy and didn't do a very good
job on a complex project I tried to bring over.

It's been awhile since I looked at KiCAD, maybe its parts libraries
have improved to the point where I should try it again?  Looks like
it has ports to all three platforms.

I've tried AutoTRAX in the past as well.  It was so buggy at that point
that I felt it was unusable for me.

Someone have another favorite?  Should I continue down the
DesignSpark route or try KiCAD again?

Or am I going to find that barrier to switching is high enough
that I just go back to Eagle and grumble?

Scott

[Sal Ammoniac]

Someone have another favorite?  Should I continue down the
DesignSpark route or try KiCAD again?

Another one to look at is Diptrace. It's similar to Eagle in that there's free and non-commercial versions available. They license the various levels by number of pins, rather than board size, which makes much more sense to me.

www.diptrace.com

[armandas]

Even though I'm an OSS supporter, I don't think that knowing how to use KiCad will help me get a job, so I have't tried it. I'm currently, uh, evaluating Altium.

When I first started using EDA software for PCB design, I used a free version of EAGLE. It made me think (wrongly), that I, under no circumstances should have to make my own parts, ever. But then, someone at uni said that EAGLE is a piece of c*ap and I should try EasyPC (a "father" of DesignSpark) and gave me the CD. The problem was that, even though the software was much more advanced, it did not come with a lot of parts and I had to create my own in order to do my project. Now Altium has much more parts available, but I still like to make my own.

What I'm trying to say is that no matter what software you are using, you will (should?) still have to make your own parts. So if you find a package that suits you, use it and you'll soon have your own library.

[Simon]

it took me some getting into but I find KiCAD very promissing. I'll never find a job in the industry though don't need pro package skills on my CV. If anything I'd go self employed and do very low end stuff that larger comapnies can'rt be bothered with

[slburris]

Another one to look at is Diptrace. It's similar to Eagle in that there's free and non-commercial versions available. They license the various levels by number of pins, rather than board size, which makes much more sense to me.
www.diptrace.com

This rings a bell - I've tried Diptrace in the past but can't remember why
I didn't like it.  Maybe I need to give it another chance.  I hear about Eagle
all the time, but rarely hear anything about Diptrace.  Anyone used it for
significant designs?

I'd like to pick something that others are sharing parts for if possible.
I really hate building my own parts, especially with 100 pin VQFP and 208 TQFP
packages I'm working with.

In Eagle, I could make a reasonable part using the BSDL file from the manufacturer.
It would be nice to find something that could import BSDL or IBIS files as a starter point.

Why can't there be a standard for publishing parts symbols and pcb land patterns?  The
manufacturers would publish this for their parts, and the EDA software would import it
and we would all be happy.

Yes, I know Microchip and others are doing this Ultra Librarian stuff.  It sorta works,
although I've had some issues with using that in Eagle.  Not sure if that's an Eagle
problem or a UL problem.

Scott

[dfnr2]

I did my first non-homemade PCB on the free AutoTrax on a DOS emulator on SunOS in the mid-90's.  When I started consulting in 2001, couldn't afford the fancy packages, and gEDA was too fluctuant, limited, and not nearly as useful as now, with basically no libraries.  I found the free version of Eagle and it had huge libraries, was easy to use, and free for small boards, so that's what I used for a couple of prototypes until I made enough to spring for the Pro version of Eagle.  In 2009, I evaluated almost every other package out there, and found Altium to be an amazing value (the price had just dropped.)  Even though it was about the cheapest of the professional-grade packages, it was easier to use and had superior features that worked well.  I liked Pulsonix as well (big brother to Easy-PC and DesignSpark), but the price was more than Altium for less capability.

The main advantages of Altium over Eagle, for me, were
- the hierarchical structure, making it easier to move/reuse/duplicate subsections of schematics and routing;
- the broader model of parts, more than just basically just schematic and footprint, so that the supplier info is included in the part, and I no longer have to work almost as hard putting together the BOM as I do on the PCB;
- The built-in version control, allowing not only version management, but actual comparisons between versions.  Previously, I saved the files and used RCS. 
- Cross probing and cross selecting; selecting parts on the schematic and then placing those selected parts on the PCB
- more basic built-in functionality; not having to use a ULP for simple stuff like re-annotation.
- 3D modeling - in fact this was the driving force, since some designs had to fit in tight enclosures requiring close work with a mechanical engineer.  It's still work to make it happen, but worth it.
- I was interested in the FPGA features, but those were a bonus, not affecting the decision.
- tons of tutorials and examples
- Great user community

Regarding Eagle, some things that I thought were fine were:
- The User interface.  It's different, and I like Altium more, since sometimes you just want to grab a part and move it around.  However, I worked just fine with the Eagle interface after I got used to it.
- Eagle is multiplatform.  That was critical for me, as I ran Linux exclusively for many years.
- Eagle has great integration between the schematic and PCB editors
- Good ERC and DRC checking.
- lots of library parts and templates
- Great user community

I plan to continue using and maintaining my Altium license, but I maintain my Eagle license, and will probably upgrade to Eagle 6 as well.  With the new hierarchical structure, one of the major gripes will be gone.  For hobby use, the other issues are not as serious.

Regarding the library, I find that Eagle has great libraries for through-hole parts, and nobody has great libraries for surface mount.  I think everybody has slightly different preferences, and will have to make most parts once; then using the software gets easier and easier when you can pick previously created parts.  You can find IPC footprints for Eagle, and copy standard symbols, so part creation is really not too difficult.  It's about the same for any software, once you learn the tricks.

If I were a hobbyist on a budget, I'd look forward to the new Eagle 6, but I'd also keep one eye on the free programs, and check out DesignSpark and EasyPCB. 

Dave

[PeterG]

I did not know of Diptrace until now, and i got to say my first impressions are very good, it seems to be a lot more refined than Eagle. I feel Eagle has slipped behind the rest of the crowd in recent times, including the free alternatives.

Regards

[Hypernova]

I did not know of Diptrace until now, and i got to say my first impressions are very good, it seems to be a lot more refined than Eagle. I feel Eagle has slipped behind the rest of the crowd in recent times, including the free alternatives.

Regards

That's not saying much 

[PeterG]

Point taken 

Regards

[slburris]

Today I started looking at Diptrace, as Sal Ammoniac had suggested.

I watched their series of introductory videos, and found myself
saying "Hey, that's a lot more work to do that in Eagle", and
"Hey, I wish Eagle had that feature".  On the whole, this looks
more polished than I was used to.

So I downloaded it and have been trying it out for the past few hours.
I'm finding the parts libraries both comprehensive and baffling at the
same time.  I'm using a fairly obscure PIC part in my design, the
PIC18F97J60, and yep, it was in there.  But there's no 3.3v net port,
just 5v and 12volt.  I'd expect 3.3, 2.5, 1.8, and 1.2 to be pretty much
standard at this point.  No matter, I created one from the 5v net port.

Didn't have the LP2992 voltage regulator, but had many other National
parts.  No matter, created one with the parts editor.

I found I could export my collection of symbol from Eagle and import
them into a new library.  So far, that's worked pretty well.  A couple
of cosmetic oddities I can go fix, but it seemed to work better than when
I tried this in DesignSpark.

Still struggling with the learning curve, mostly trying to figure out how to
do things that I know how to do in Eagle.  Like, how do you specify a net
name with inverted logic, i.e. a name where a line is drawn above the
name (overlined?)?  That's been used in schematics for decades, isn't there
a way to do this in Diptrace?  Of course you couldn't do this in Eagle until
version 5, so maybe I expect too much.

Anyway, just my initial thoughts on this program.  So far I'm having a good
time with it!

Scott

[armandas]

Still struggling with the learning curve, mostly trying to figure out how to
do things that I know how to do in Eagle.  Like, how do you specify a net
name with inverted logic, i.e. a name where a line is drawn above the
name (overlined?)?  That's been used in schematics for decades, isn't there
a way to do this in Diptrace?

Just started watching the guide tour. They show how to do it while building a flip-flop, you just use ^ symbol.

[DaveW]

If you're liking Diptrace the yahoo group on it is really useful and there's been lots of times that complaints on there are rapidly fixed or suggestions are implemented in the next version
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/diptr/

[Ed.Kloonk]

Going from bread board to PCB.

You'd think by now there would be a simple PCB design solution for us non techies. I mean, it'd be awfully nice if I could fire up a open source circuit design to knock up a simple circuit to take your basic project from the breadboard to a PCB(1).

Then, feed that into a OSS pcb layout designer program. (2)

Send that to someone on the internet who could whip up just one board for a fair but nominal fee, paid via ebay, paypal etc (3)


Caveats:
1. The circuit designer does not have to include support for complex micro-controllers and other parts not available at Jaycar for example.

2. Again, just simple single side, thru-hole construction of ordinary parts. If it can't be used on a breadboard, don't include it by bogging down the pcb designer program with overhead of multi-layer pcb's with surface mounted parts. WTF?

3. Surly by now it should be possible to send a standard format file that describes the pcb layout to a manufacturer to make a one-off circuit board.

I have a paranoid suspicion the reason why nobody takes up this task is because hobbyists are exactly that: hobbyists. There's no money in that market and can you imagine the tech support trying to sorting out someone who doesn't understand electronics at a very deep level.

There must be a buck in that market somewhere...

[benkiki]

For my school project initially i use KiCAD, but later found out it still have a way to go for beginner like me to understand. Later switched to Altium Designer. Far better than anything else. I won't bother with any other software after this. By the way i was doing a single sided, through hole only board. A4 sized.

[alm]

Later switched to Altium Designer. Far better than anything else. I won't bother with any other software after this.

The issue is not the quality of the software, but the price. The $5k (or whatever it is) is kinda steep for most hobbyists, no matter how good it is.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Later switched to Altium Designer. Far better than anything else. I won't bother with any other software after this.

The issue is not the quality of the software, but the price. The $5k (or whatever it is) is kinda steep for most hobbyists, no matter how good it is.

HOW MUCH? Five grand!! Wow! I thought a couple of hundred tops.

[RayJones]

Yep 5K, but that was quite some time ago.

In the end it really is just a glorified vector graphics application. If you are only after simple designs the DRC function can be easily performed by that lump of neurons we all possess.

If you are really cheap you could even do things with MS paint - but that is sheer punishment value.

I actually did do something along those lines way back in the early 80's - you could only view a 3" x 3" area of the PCB. Resolution was 80 DPI - which matched the venerable dot matrix printers of the day, so the view port was actually 240 x 240 pixels. This was all on a 256 x 256 homebuilt graphics card within a 6809 based system. PC's were still in the price range of Altium's offerings those days!
I designed a few S100 sized cards (10" x 6") using this tool, but yes paper and pencil was also involved in the manual routing process, then the computer was used to make it neat.

A few years later I got to use Protel, and being a vector based approach was far superior.
Essential elements being start point, end point, line width.
The rest is just fluff really.
Ever used Bishop Graphics? That was the manual form with crepe tape, mylar and prebuilt component footprints, typically done at x2 scale.

Even if you are really tight, I'd only consider 2 signal layers as a minimum.

The problem is these days everybody wants the whiz bang 3D graphics, pan and zoom etc. That is really where the real work hides, getting the GUI to do the job properly without consuming all the cycles of a supercomputer.
For the fundamental requirement this is not needed.

So what good vector graphics tools already exist?
Visio is one that comes to mind.
Never tried it personally, but there are certainly schematic symbols, and could easily craft up PCB footprints.
It certainly does not cost 5K+

[EEVblog]

Later switched to Altium Designer. Far better than anything else. I won't bother with any other software after this.

The issue is not the quality of the software, but the price. The $5k (or whatever it is) is kinda steep for most hobbyists, no matter how good it is.

HOW MUCH? Five grand!! Wow! I thought a couple of hundred tops.

Yes, that's how much Altium costs. It was around $12K at one stage, so $5K is quite cheap by comparison.
The problem with Altium is that they push everyone into their "vision" of what they think electronics design should be, and as such the PCB module is effectively "optional extra". They refuse to offer a basic lower cost limited PCB/SCH solution.
They are delusional.

If you are a student then there is a $100 (/year?) full version available.

Dave.

[alm]

So what good vector graphics tools already exist?
Visio is one that comes to mind.
Never tried it personally, but there are certainly schematic symbols, and could easily craft up PCB footprints.
It certainly does not cost 5K+

Visio is owned by MS these days, and costs something like $200-$800, depending on the edition. But what's the point? Kicad is free, Eagle ranges from free to a few hundred dollars, and I'm sure there are various alternatives below $200. Both applications are far better suited for this work. Yes, you can use any basic vector package, but why if there are free or similarly priced EDA packages?

If you are a student then there is a $100 (/year?) full version available.

You pay around $100 each year (I've read €130 in the EU), and lose access to both the software and your data (except a read-only viewer) after you graduate unless you pay full price. Sounds like a good deal if you're trying to become a professional PCB designer, not so much otherwise. Plus having used Altium probably makes using something like Kicad or Eagle much more painful.

[EEVblog]

Kicad is free, Eagle ranges from free to a few hundred dollars

Actually, Eagle jumps from free to $1000 for most useful stuff things.
The $500 version of Eagle is still size limit restricted which is ridiculous.
This has been discussed on TheAmpHour before.

Dave.

[tnt]

Well:
* Most of the improvements end up in 'minor version' upgrade and so you get them for free for a long time (like 2/3 years)
* The limitation of the 500$ version will be enough for most hobbyist. I never exceeded those limitations ... (but granted I do mostly stuff with SMDs where one of the design goal is being small :p)
* If you're non-profit, this version is only 125$.

(Note I do have the pro version full version because I got it for work 2 years ago ...)

[EEVblog]

* The limitation of the 500$ version will be enough for most hobbyist. I never exceeded those limitations ... (but granted I do mostly stuff with SMDs where one of the design goal is being small :p)

Try doing say a very simple single sided PCB with a couple of leds on it, like a LED chaser, but it just happens you need it to be 161mm in length.
Your $500 package won't do you any good at all...

Dave.

[tnt]

Sure but you can be smart about it :p
It's often cheaper in prototype services to make like 5 exact same boards of (161 / 5) mm wide that interconnects between them than making a single one piece.

Or if you're extra sneaky, you can even write a script that scales down by 1/10 ... (including parts library and such) and then re-scale up the gerber :p

OTOH, I agree that the 500$ should not exist.
There should just be the 125$ non-profit and the 1000$ full, not point in between.

Because anyway what would I do with a 100$ version of Altium that doesn't run on my dual linux / osx machine ... At least eagle made the nice decision to use a cross platform gui.

[Scrts]

You pay around $100 each year (I've read €130 in the EU), and lose access to both the software and your data (except a read-only viewer) after you graduate unless you pay full price. Sounds like a good deal if you're trying to become a professional PCB designer, not so much otherwise. Plus having used Altium probably makes using something like Kicad or Eagle much more painful.

Hm, is that renewable each year? Or it is possible to buy the software e.g. 4 years forward? I can't find any information how to buy Altium software as a student.
The university has 10 floating licenses available, however a group consists 22-25 students, which means, that it is impossible to allow more than 20 students to work with software when sitting 2 persons at a computer. Whats then? They encourage students to steal. No money for additional licenses, but also it is not worth to teach students to work with such software like eagle/kicad/geda/etc. Why? Almost all bigger/better companies work with Altium and there is a demand of people working exactly with Altium.

The higher the price - the more people will use the software illegal.

[armandas]

You pay around $100 each year (I've read €130 in the EU), and lose access to both the software and your data (except a read-only viewer) after you graduate unless you pay full price. Sounds like a good deal if you're trying to become a professional PCB designer, not so much otherwise. Plus having used Altium probably makes using something like Kicad or Eagle much more painful.

Hm, is that renewable each year? Or it is possible to buy the software e.g. 4 years forward? I can't find any information how to buy Altium software as a student.
The university has 10 floating licenses available, however a group consists 22-25 students, which means, that it is impossible to allow more than 20 students to work with software when sitting 2 persons at a computer. Whats then? They encourage students to steal. No money for additional licenses, but also it is not worth to teach students to work with such software like eagle/kicad/geda/etc. Why? Almost all bigger/better companies work with Altium and there is a demand of people working exactly with Altium.

The higher the price - the more people will use the software illegal.

Here is the PDF I got sent from Altium representative in the UK. Yes, you basically "rent" the software for £95/year.