Author Topic: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?  (Read 11875 times)

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Offline BlochTopic starter

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Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« on: June 21, 2015, 03:52:19 pm »
Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2015, 03:53:08 pm »
No, just use LGPL components. You can do that with the LGPL, but you have to include the license terms.
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Offline BlochTopic starter

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2015, 03:56:31 pm »
Ok that make sense.


But why not mention the components name in the file ?
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2015, 03:59:31 pm »
Because that's above and beyond the bare minimum they're legally required to do.
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Offline BlochTopic starter

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2015, 05:19:21 pm »
Thankyou
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 11:39:43 am »
I think not, because you can't distribute the source code. It's stuck in the Altium cloud...

But what's really the difference between pointing to some (Altium, Eagle, Diptrace etc) projects files on a Github server and Altium's project files on their server, if both solutions require you to have the program in order to open the file?

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You can rip the locally cached files, but it's a hack. The only official way to get a project is to sign up for their cloud service and add it to your account. So I'd say projects made in CM can't be GPL.

But those files are useless to you without having Circuit Maker. Just like Eagle files are useless to you without installing Eagle etc.
Unless you want to starting about conversion, which IMO is another conversation.
 

Offline sync

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2015, 11:47:06 am »
But what's really the difference between pointing to some (Altium, Eagle, Diptrace etc) projects files on a Github server and Altium's project files on their server, if both solutions require you to have the program in order to open the file?
You can download the projects files form Github now and use it in the future even if Altium don't exist anymore.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2015, 11:54:01 am »
You can download the projects files form Github now and use it in the future even if Altium don't exist anymore.

Ok, but playing devil's advocate - what if Github doesn't exist in the future?
What if you store the files on your own server (surely meeting GPL requirements) and it doesn't exist in the future?
What if you store the files on *insert any service here*  and it doesn't exist in the future?

What is the compelling reason that makes having the files on Altium's server any different?
If any argument is based on "risk", "history", "number of users" etc, then I suspect that argument is not a valid one.
 

Offline sync

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2015, 12:07:27 pm »
Ok, but playing devil's advocate - what if Github doesn't exist in the future?
Doesn't matter if you have downloaded the files before.

Quote
What if you store the files on your own server (surely meeting GPL requirements) and it doesn't exist in the future?
What if you store the files on *insert any service here*  and it doesn't exist in the future?
It's the same with all of your files/data. Yes, you can lose them. It's in your responsibility to prevent that.

Quote
What is the compelling reason that makes having the files on Altium's server any different?
If any argument is based on "risk", "history", "number of users" etc, then I suspect that argument is not a valid one.
Of cause it's about risk. And that is a very valid argument. Does Altium guaranteed that it's service (under the same conditions) is still available in 5, 10, 15, 20 years?
That is one difference between Altium files on Github and the CM cloud.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 12:11:21 pm »
Ok, but playing devil's advocate - what if Github doesn't exist in the future?
Doesn't matter if you have downloaded the files before.

Then to be fair, the same can be said for files on the Altium server, right?
Remember, these files are on your local drive when you download the project. If you chose not the make a copy copy of those files yourself, then that's your problem, right?

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Of cause it's about risk. And that is a very valid argument. Does Altium guaranteed that it's service (under the same conditions) is still available in 5, 10, 15, 20 years?

Err, does Github, or any other service?
If the only argument is about guarantees, then IMO that's not a valid argument.
I don't really know the GPL requirements, but show me were it says the files have to be stored in a place with guaranteed access in 5, 10, 15, 20 years.

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That is one difference between Altium files on Github and the CM cloud.

How exactly?
Forgive me for being dumb, but I don't really see it unless you want to talk semantics.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 12:15:07 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline sync

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 12:44:33 pm »
Then to be fair, the same can be said for files on the Altium server, right?
Remember, these files are on your local drive when you download the project. If you chose not the make a copy copy of those files yourself, then that's your problem, right?

In the CM case. Can you load these files into the application? If not they are useless.

Quote
Quote
Of cause it's about risk. And that is a very valid argument. Does Altium guaranteed that it's service (under the same conditions) is still available in 5, 10, 15, 20 years?

Err, does Github, or any other service?
If the only argument is about guarantees, then IMO that's not a valid argument.
I don't really know the GPL requirements, but show me were it says the files have to be stored in a place with guaranteed access in 5, 10, 15, 20 years.
It's not about the online server availability. With Github you can make your own copy of the files. THAT's the difference. And you can keep the files (and a copy of the application) for many years.

Regarding the GPL. When you distribute work containing GPL stuff you have to provide the source files (on request). With CM you can't that.
But I can't understand why hardware is GPL licensed. It's a software license and really not suitable for other stuff.
 

Offline Tabs

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2015, 12:57:26 pm »
Ok, but playing devil's advocate - what if Github doesn't exist in the future?
Doesn't matter if you have downloaded the files before.

Then to be fair, the same can be said for files on the Altium server, right?
Remember, these files are on your local drive when you download the project. If you chose not the make a copy copy of those files yourself, then that's your problem, right?

Quote
Of cause it's about risk. And that is a very valid argument. Does Altium guaranteed that it's service (under the same conditions) is still available in 5, 10, 15, 20 years?

Err, does Github, or any other service?
If the only argument is about guarantees, then IMO that's not a valid argument.
I don't really know the GPL requirements, but show me were it says the files have to be stored in a place with guaranteed access in 5, 10, 15, 20 years.

Quote
That is one difference between Altium files on Github and the CM cloud.

How exactly?
Forgive me for being dumb, but I don't really see it unless you want to talk semantics.

I think you're missing the point:

Any online storage service will allow you to download the files and make a local copy of them on your own computer.
CM gives you local copies of the files from the their cloud service because they (Altium) want to conserve bandwidth stress on their servers.
You can't choose to save locally offline. You get it as a by product of the protocol/use case CM implements.
This can change at any time.

Secondly, all cad tools (bar CM) will work locally in offline mode on your local files. CM requires you to have a connection to the internet and logged in to the CM ecosystem.
If eagle as a company disappeared over night, you could still access and work on your files and you can still produce new designs if you wished.
If CM stopped working you'd be stuffed.

You proved as much in your review of CM when you pulled the ethernet cable from the computer. CM wouldn't let you do anything.
In this case the dependence on the ethernet cable goes all the way through the internet to Altiums servers. It would be no different if Altium pulled the cable on their end.

The other tools (KiCAD, Eagle, CS, AD, DipTrace etc) are not locked down so aggressively and the communities that use those tools can survive without the company behind the tool.
Open source tools like KiCAD go one step further in that if all the KiCAD developers decided to stop for what ever reason, anyone can take their place (if they had the ability).

The likelihood of being stuffed by the likes of KiCAD in 10, 15, 20 years is very much minimised compared to CM which is driven by a company with commercial interests.
If CM wasn't contributing to Altium in the way they wanted it to, I wouldn't blame them for killing it off.
Of course, I would expect them to set it free (as in let people download their stuff & let CM work offline) rather then kill it. Killing it would be a publicity problem and the open source
community would never trust them again.
 

Offline ehughes

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2015, 01:36:51 pm »
Applying (L)GPL  to hardware is like applying divorce law to your traffic citation.   It simply doesn't work as it applies to work outside the scope of the law. No PCB design can be compliant with the (L)GPL.   Even with KiCAD.     The artifact of the design is not a piece of software.   

Once you move into the physical world you can't apply the GPL.   Why?  Because it is not possible to traverse the entire chain of the development tools and require them to all be open.  You have to place a boundary somewhere.   For hardware,  the only practical solution is to put the boundary at a copy of the artifacts of the design process.  I.E.   BOMs, PDF schematics, gerbers, etc.   That gives you enough for someone else to work on the design.

The real question is if CM can be used to build OSHW hardware.  The answer would that be certainly yes.  All you have to do is provide the schematics, Gerbers, BOMs, etc in pdf along with the proprietary design files..   That is enough to inspect, build or modify the design.  There is no requirement that modify has to be easy.  It would be nice, but not requisite to be open hardware.




 

Offline timofonic

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2015, 01:47:00 pm »
Ok, but playing devil's advocate - what if Github doesn't exist in the future?
Doesn't matter if you have downloaded the files before.

Then to be fair, the same can be said for files on the Altium server, right?
Remember, these files are on your local drive when you download the project. If you chose not the make a copy copy of those files yourself, then that's your problem, right?

Quote
Of cause it's about risk. And that is a very valid argument. Does Altium guaranteed that it's service (under the same conditions) is still available in 5, 10, 15, 20 years?

Err, does Github, or any other service?
If the only argument is about guarantees, then IMO that's not a valid argument.
I don't really know the GPL requirements, but show me were it says the files have to be stored in a place with guaranteed access in 5, 10, 15, 20 years.

Quote
That is one difference between Altium files on Github and the CM cloud.

How exactly?
Forgive me for being dumb, but I don't really see it unless you want to talk semantics.

I think you're missing the point:

Any online storage service will allow you to download the files and make a local copy of them on your own computer.
CM gives you local copies of the files from the their cloud service because they (Altium) want to conserve bandwidth stress on their servers.
You can't choose to save locally offline. You get it as a by product of the protocol/use case CM implements.
This can change at any time.

Secondly, all cad tools (bar CM) will work locally in offline mode on your local files. CM requires you to have a connection to the internet and logged in to the CM ecosystem.
If eagle as a company disappeared over night, you could still access and work on your files and you can still produce new designs if you wished.
If CM stopped working you'd be stuffed.

You proved as much in your review of CM when you pulled the ethernet cable from the computer. CM wouldn't let you do anything.
In this case the dependence on the ethernet cable goes all the way through the internet to Altiums servers. It would be no different if Altium pulled the cable on their end.

The other tools (KiCAD, Eagle, CS, AD, DipTrace etc) are not locked down so aggressively and the communities that use those tools can survive without the company behind the tool.
Open source tools like KiCAD go one step further in that if all the KiCAD developers decided to stop for what ever reason, anyone can take their place (if they had the ability).

The likelihood of being stuffed by the likes of KiCAD in 10, 15, 20 years is very much minimised compared to CM which is driven by a company with commercial interests.
If CM wasn't contributing to Altium in the way they wanted it to, I wouldn't blame them for killing it off.
Of course, I would expect them to set it free (as in let people download their stuff & let CM work offline) rather then kill it. Killing it would be a publicity problem and the open source
community would never trust them again.

They don't care a shit. Vendor lock-in and market traction does the job. Just do like Microsoft, free dose in universities...

They just want to expand their market and if not, GTFO. Just like any corporation, ethics are just short term PR.

EDA moguls are very dangerous, software giants do lots damage to industries.  Mentor,  Cadence,  Altium, Keysight, Zuken...  this oligopoly is causing poisoning to the art of electronics.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2015, 01:53:28 pm »
I think you're missing the point:
Any online storage service will allow you to download the files and make a local copy of them on your own computer.
CM gives you local copies of the files from the their cloud service because they (Altium) want to conserve bandwidth stress on their servers.
You can't choose to save locally offline. You get it as a by product of the protocol/use case CM implements.

I understand that, but technically people do get the files. So, i ask, ultimately as far as a license is concerned, that's the difference?

Quote
Secondly, all cad tools (bar CM) will work locally in offline mode on your local files. CM requires you to have a connection to the internet and logged in to the CM ecosystem.
If eagle as a company disappeared over night, you could still access and work on your files and you can still produce new designs if you wished.
If CM stopped working you'd be stuffed.

Correct, but what's that got to do with the validity of a meeting the license requirements?

Quote
The other tools (KiCAD, Eagle, CS, AD, DipTrace etc) are not locked down so aggressively and the communities that use those tools can survive without the company behind the tool.
Open source tools like KiCAD go one step further in that if all the KiCAD developers decided to stop for what ever reason, anyone can take their place (if they had the ability).

The likelihood of being stuffed by the likes of KiCAD in 10, 15, 20 years is very much minimised compared to CM which is driven by a company with commercial interests.

Correct. But once again,  but what's that got to do with the validity of a meeting the license requirements?
 
 

Offline sync

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2015, 01:59:18 pm »
Once you move into the physical world you can't apply the GPL.   Why?  Because it is not possible to traverse the entire chain of the development tools and require them to all be open.
That's not a GPL requirement. You can perfectly create GPL stuff with proprietary tools. But GPL is a software license. Not suitable for other stuff.
 

Offline andersm

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2015, 02:18:05 pm »
I understand that, but technically people do get the files. So, i ask, ultimately as far as a license is concerned, that's the difference?
The GPL (2.0) contains the following:
Quote
The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it.
So the question is if the locally cached files are distributable in a way that others can use, make modifications to and distribute with their own changes. (The clause is there to prevent companies from distributing the source engraved on stone tablets, translated to cuneiform and similar dickery.)

But as several people have pointed out, the GPL or LGPL are not good licenses for hardware.

Offline free_electron

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2015, 05:05:22 pm »
you can't apply GPL or LGPL to hardware.

simple case : it would require the schematics, masksets and the chemistry / fab technology of any integrated circuit you use to be available...  good luck on that one ... you would have to open the production processes for resistors. the chemistry of the electrolyte used in the capacitors...
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2015, 05:10:06 pm »
Not sure if anyone already linked this,


From their FAQ:
http://documentation.circuitmaker.com/display/CMAK/CircuitMaker+-+((FAQs))

Quote
Who owns my design work when it is in the CircuitMaker community?
You are the author, but the design projects created using CircuitMaker may include certain open source, or other software, originated from third parties that is subject to:

  • The GNU General Public License (GPL)
  • The GNU Library/Lesser General Public License (LGPL)
  • Different and/or additional copyright licenses, disclaimers, and notices.
By using CircuitMaker you acknowledge that any project you post will be subject to one or more open source software or hardware licenses. The exact terms of GPL, LGPL, and some other licenses are provided to you with your particular product. Please refer to the exact terms of the GPL and LGPL at http://www.fsf.org (Free Software Foundation) or http://www.opensource.org (Open Source Initiative) regarding your rights under said license.
 

Offline Tabs

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2015, 05:23:05 pm »
Quote
Correct, but what's that got to do with the validity of a meeting the license requirements?
Quote
Correct. But once again,  but what's that got to do with the validity of a meeting the license requirements?

I think Altiums control of CM and its use has absolutely everything to do with it (meeting the terms of the licence)

So, just a few points to lay the ground
  • I'm not an expert on law or open source licenses so if anything I say is incorrect, please correct me.
  • I've skimmed the licence documents to help me write this answer (not want to look like an idiot for talking about licences that I've not looked at).
    I haven't read every line, I just picked the passages that help me support my argument. I therefore, may be guilty of cherry picking text.
    It's not my intention to mislead anyone or to mis-represent the licence. If this does happens, please accept my apologies and correct me.
  • I will argue CMs business model is a new concept in as far as the way it locks down the CM ecosystem. In some cases, this may have leapfrogged
    some open source licences because the authors of those licenses didn't consider a model where the cad tool itself could disappear. In such a case,
    where the wording of the licence does not specifically state its incompatibility with the model, I will attempt to argue the intent behind the licence
    is violated by the CM model. This will be my interpretation of intent. I do this because where a legal framework is grey, the intent behind the framework
    has been used to determine guild/innocence.
  • I wish to make clear that what we are arguing about is the design documentation of the hardware, not the physical hardware.
    I will refer to open source documentation to explain this point.
  • An authors intention to place their work under an open licence, implies that they agree with the terms, definitions & responsibilities asserted by that licence.

I would also like to address the point that some licences are not meant for open source hardware. Examples are (L)GPL.
I think it depends on your definition of open source hardware and what you think you're protecting by placing such things under a licence.
The open source hardware association states in this site http://www.oshwa.org/faq/ any emphasis or bold text is my own addition for clarity.
Quote from: OSHWA
Quote
“Open source hardware is hardware whose design is made publicly available so that anyone can study, modify, distribute, make, and sell the design or hardware based on that design.
The hardware’s source, the design from which it is made, is available in the preferred format for making modifications to it.”
Note that open-source hardware refers specifically to sharing the digital design files for physical objects; while we support other forms of sharing, we think it’s important to be clear about the meaning of open-source hardware.
Quote
It is crucial, however, to make a distinction between the design files for the hardware and the hardware itself. The design files are likely protected by copyright, even if the hardware itself is not. 
Quote
Licensing is often used for copyrighted information, which includes the source-code to computer programs, the text of books, photographs, recordings of music, etc.
Quote
By placing an open-source license on a copyrighted work, you give people permission to make copies of it — a right they wouldn’t otherwise have.
In return, you can require them to, for example, license derivatives of your work under the same license (a condition known as “copyleft”).
This works well for source code, documentation, and other works for which copyright applies.
Quote
In general, there are two broad classes of open-source licenses: copyleft and permissive. Copyleft licenses (also referred to as “share-alike” or “viral”) are those which require derivative works to be released under the same license as the original;
common copyleft licenses include the GNU General Public License (GPL) and the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike license. Other copyleft licenses have been specifically designed for hardware;
they include the CERN Open Hardware License (OHL) and the TAPR Open Hardware License (OHL). Permissive licenses are those which allow for proprietary (closed) derivatives;
they include the FreeBSD license, the MIT license, and the Creative Commons Attribution license.

& for the GPL itself I pulled the following from http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html
Quote from: GNU/FSF
Quote
The GNU General Public License is a free, copyleft license for software and other kinds of works.

So (L)GPL and others like it are copyleft licences -> CopyLeft licences are perfect for anything copyrightable -> design files for open source hardware are copyrightable -> the design files are what is referred to as open source hardrware.
There you go, ipso-facto (L)GPL and others like it can be applied to open source hardware. Remember it applies to the design files and not the manufacturing process, the chemistry, masksets, the fab etc.
Some people, therefore, feel justified in interpreting the words "source code" or "program" in the GPL as references to design documentation.
If you don't like that definition then I refer you to ground rule (5) above and suggest you choose a different license with different view.

I would much rather use a copyleft license specifically worded for hardware.

Here are some key quotes:
Quote from: GNU/FSF
Quote
To protect your rights, we need to prevent others from denying you these rights or asking you to surrender the rights.
Therefore, you have certain responsibilities if you distribute copies of the software, or if you modify it: responsibilities to respect the freedom of others.

For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must pass on to the recipients the same freedoms that you received.
You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights.

Quote from: OSHWA
Quote
In some cases, you might decide not to publish the design files until sometime after the product has been released;
that’s fine (unless your product derives from another open-source hardware project whose license requires the open-sourcing of derivatives)
but the product isn’t open-source hardware until the files are available.
Instead, you might say something like “we plan to open-source this product in the future.”

& from CERN OHL http://www.ohwr.org/attachments/2388/cern_ohl_v_1_2.txt (CERN uses the OSHA definitions)
Quote from: CERN OHL
Quote
20   “Documentation” means schematic diagrams, designs, circuit or circuit
21   board layouts, mechanical drawings, flow charts and descriptive text,
22   and other explanatory material that is explicitly stated as being made
23   available under the conditions of this Licence. The Documentation may
24   be in any medium, including but not limited to computer files and
25   representations on paper, film, or any other media.
Quote
27   “Documentation Location” means a location where the Licensor has
28   placed Documentation, and which he believes will be publicly
29   accessible for at least three years from the first communication to
30   the public or distribution of Documentation.
Quote
105   d) make available the modified Documentation at the same level of
106   abstraction as that of the Documentation, in the preferred format for
107   making modifications to it (e.g. the native format of the CAD tool as
108   applicable), and in the event that format is proprietary, in a format
109   viewable with a tool licensed under an OSI-approved license if the
110   proprietary tool can create it; and

I could look at other licenses but my eyes are glazing over.
I'd bet they all have something similar.

I and others have argued CM is not compatible with open source licences and I have tried to make my position clear in another thread, but in hindsight,
I would say CM is a great tool, but its business model and restrictions make it impossible for the author of open sourced licensed works to guarantee the
availability or editability of his/her work in for any period (small or large) of time. In this way the restrictions and lockdown of the tool work to limit the
author and stop him/her meeting their obligations under their chosen license.

Granted, the licences do not specify a time limit on availability (I would therefore assume they want availability forever). All except the CERN license, which states 3 years.
Even OSHA implies that things cant be open source until the files are available. I would argue that this implies available & editable. With CM, your files may be available
but without CM being able to phone home they may as well be non-existent.
 

Offline Tabs

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2015, 05:37:16 pm »
Not sure if anyone already linked this,


From their FAQ:
http://documentation.circuitmaker.com/display/CMAK/CircuitMaker+-+((FAQs))

Quote
Who owns my design work when it is in the CircuitMaker community?
You are the author, but the design projects created using CircuitMaker may include certain open source, or other software, originated from third parties that is subject to:

  • The GNU General Public License (GPL)
  • The GNU Library/Lesser General Public License (LGPL)
  • Different and/or additional copyright licenses, disclaimers, and notices.
By using CircuitMaker you acknowledge that any project you post will be subject to one or more open source software or hardware licenses. The exact terms of GPL, LGPL, and some other licenses are provided to you with your particular product. Please refer to the exact terms of the GPL and LGPL at http://www.fsf.org (Free Software Foundation) or http://www.opensource.org (Open Source Initiative) regarding your rights under said license.

That's a bit misleading.

I could make an embedded computer board (like the iMX6 Rex) in CM. Of course it will run Linux which is a third party party open source software.
There's no new information in the first statement.

The second statement is even more confusing.
What are they saying. If I choose to share a project on CM, the project will be subjected to an open source software or hardware licence. Their wording
suggests they choose the licence. Do I at least get a say?

Thirdly, just pointing out that even Altium think the hardware CM projects can be subject to (L)GPL. They wouldn't be throwing those acronyms around
just to spread some (f)ud among less informed users? :-DD
 

Offline andersm

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2015, 06:12:33 pm »
So (L)GPL and others like it are copyleft licences -> CopyLeft licences are perfect for anything copyrightable -> design files for open source hardware are copyrightable -> the design files are what is referred to as open source hardrware.
There you go, ipso-facto (L)GPL and others like it can be applied to open source hardware. Remember it applies to the design files and not the manufacturing process, the chemistry, masksets, the fab etc.
That is not specified in the license, which is one of the problematic parts. For example, how is this supposed to be interpreted when the thing covered by the license is the user product itself?
Quote
A “User Product” is either (1) a “consumer product”, which means any tangible personal property which is normally used for personal, family, or household purposes, or (2) anything designed or sold for incorporation into a dwelling. In determining whether a product is a consumer product, doubtful cases shall be resolved in favor of coverage. For a particular product received by a particular user, “normally used” refers to a typical or common use of that class of product, regardless of the status of the particular user or of the way in which the particular user actually uses, or expects or is expected to use, the product. A product is a consumer product regardless of whether the product has substantial commercial, industrial or non-consumer uses, unless such uses represent the only significant mode of use of the product.

“Installation Information” for a User Product means any methods, procedures, authorization keys, or other information required to install and execute modified versions of a covered work in that User Product from a modified version of its Corresponding Source. The information must suffice to ensure that the continued functioning of the modified object code is in no case prevented or interfered with solely because modification has been made.

If you convey an object code work under this section in, or with, or specifically for use in, a User Product, and the conveying occurs as part of a transaction in which the right of possession and use of the User Product is transferred to the recipient in perpetuity or for a fixed term (regardless of how the transaction is characterized), the Corresponding Source conveyed under this section must be accompanied by the Installation Information. But this requirement does not apply if neither you nor any third party retains the ability to install modified object code on the User Product (for example, the work has been installed in ROM).
Similarly, if you're given a finished product covered by the LGPL, how is the "combined works" clause meant to be interpreted?

Quote
Granted, the licences do not specify a time limit on availability (I would therefore assume they want availability forever). All except the CERN license, which states 3 years.
That is lifted  from the GPL:
Quote
6. Conveying Non-Source Forms.

You may convey a covered work in object code form under the terms of sections 4 and 5, provided that you also convey the machine-readable Corresponding Source under the terms of this License, in one of these ways:
...
  • b) Convey the object code in, or embodied in, a physical product (including a physical distribution medium), accompanied by a written offer, valid for at least three years and valid for as long as you offer spare parts or customer support for that product model, to give anyone who possesses the object code either (1) a copy of the Corresponding Source for all the software in the product that is covered by this License, on a durable physical medium customarily used for software interchange, for a price no more than your reasonable cost of physically performing this conveying of source, or (2) access to copy the Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge.

Offline Tabs

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2015, 06:36:04 pm »
So (L)GPL and others like it are copyleft licences -> CopyLeft licences are perfect for anything copyrightable -> design files for open source hardware are copyrightable -> the design files are what is referred to as open source hardrware.
There you go, ipso-facto (L)GPL and others like it can be applied to open source hardware. Remember it applies to the design files and not the manufacturing process, the chemistry, masksets, the fab etc.
That is not specified in the license, which is one of the problematic parts. For example, how is this supposed to be interpreted when the thing covered by the license is the user product itself?
Quote
A “User Product” is either (1) a “consumer product”, which means any tangible personal property which is normally used for personal, family, or household purposes, or (2) anything designed or sold for incorporation into a dwelling. In determining whether a product is a consumer product, doubtful cases shall be resolved in favor of coverage. For a particular product received by a particular user, “normally used” refers to a typical or common use of that class of product, regardless of the status of the particular user or of the way in which the particular user actually uses, or expects or is expected to use, the product. A product is a consumer product regardless of whether the product has substantial commercial, industrial or non-consumer uses, unless such uses represent the only significant mode of use of the product.

“Installation Information” for a User Product means any methods, procedures, authorization keys, or other information required to install and execute modified versions of a covered work in that User Product from a modified version of its Corresponding Source. The information must suffice to ensure that the continued functioning of the modified object code is in no case prevented or interfered with solely because modification has been made.

If you convey an object code work under this section in, or with, or specifically for use in, a User Product, and the conveying occurs as part of a transaction in which the right of possession and use of the User Product is transferred to the recipient in perpetuity or for a fixed term (regardless of how the transaction is characterized), the Corresponding Source conveyed under this section must be accompanied by the Installation Information. But this requirement does not apply if neither you nor any third party retains the ability to install modified object code on the User Product (for example, the work has been installed in ROM).
Similarly, if you're given a finished product covered by the LGPL, how is the "combined works" clause meant to be interpreted?

Quote
Granted, the licences do not specify a time limit on availability (I would therefore assume they want availability forever). All except the CERN license, which states 3 years.
That is lifted  from the GPL:
Quote
6. Conveying Non-Source Forms.

You may convey a covered work in object code form under the terms of sections 4 and 5, provided that you also convey the machine-readable Corresponding Source under the terms of this License, in one of these ways:
...
  • b) Convey the object code in, or embodied in, a physical product (including a physical distribution medium), accompanied by a written offer, valid for at least three years and valid for as long as you offer spare parts or customer support for that product model, to give anyone who possesses the object code either (1) a copy of the Corresponding Source for all the software in the product that is covered by this License, on a durable physical medium customarily used for software interchange, for a price no more than your reasonable cost of physically performing this conveying of source, or (2) access to copy the Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge.

I guess thats where my expertise on the matter fall short.

If these are legitimate points of confusion then they need be discussed and resolved.

I restricted my reply to design documents and not the end physical product & advised the selection of a more appropriate licence for physical h/w.

Does any of what you said change the position CM is in with regards to allowing the user to meet their obligations to ensure availability of any design files they publish under these open source licenses?[/list]
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Is CircutMaker LGPL ?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2015, 08:53:55 am »

& for the GPL itself I pulled the following from http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html
Quote from: GNU/FSF
The GNU General Public License is a free, copyleft license for software and other kinds of works.

Unfortunately that FAQ is simplified and misleading, by "other works" they mean "other copyrightable works".

The other FAQ specific to hardware is unfortunately just as confusing and unhelpful:

Quote
Can I use the GPL to license hardware? (#GPLHardware)

    Any material that can be copyrighted can be licensed under the GPL. GPLv3 can also be used to license materials covered by other copyright-like laws, such as semiconductor masks. So, as an example, you can release a drawing of a physical object or circuit under the GPL.

    In many situations, copyright does not cover making physical hardware from a drawing. In these situations, your license for the drawing simply can't exert any control over making or selling physical hardware, regardless of the license you use. When copyright does cover making hardware, for instance with IC masks, the GPL handles that case in a useful way.

IOW, "no".

Generally, "utility works" are not covered by copyright. This would certainly cover Gerber files. Copyright might cover a schematic drawing, but copyright does not cover the circuit topology (only a patent can do that).

It is only due to lobbying by the very lucrative software industry seeking protection that software is even covered by copyright, with other special grants like IC masks, and yacht designs.

The tldr is that legally speaking, GPL, Creative Commons or any copyright derived license is effectively unable to protect a hardware design. This is a problem all OSHW organisations are struggling with, the law is insufficient to create legal binding open or "copyleft" licenses for hardware.

The only way GPL is useful for hardware is to consider it as a "social contract", or a guideline for best practice. An Open Source Hardware design should meet the four freedoms: freedom of use, study, manufacture and distribution, modification and sharing.
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 


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