Author Topic: Please MS just go to hell...  (Read 41919 times)

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Offline Simon

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #200 on: July 18, 2021, 11:45:52 am »


As long as you use Linux as if it was a no-cost version of Windows, you will be unhappy.  :(

No I don't compare it to windows, I expect it to be a functional operating system that I can run programs on. I could not care less what the operating system is. And it's not just about the operating system but the various programs that I actually want to run else I would have little use for an OS.

For widespread adoption you need both an OS that the everyday user can use and for the wider software industry to support that OS so that finding programs and being able to run them is simple. Why else do we install GB of code on our computers? surely not to be told that we have to start using the command line and writing bits of our own code just to get through the working day.

So long as things remain as they are Windows will dominate and those with money may buy apple and then call themselves geeks.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #201 on: July 18, 2021, 12:07:20 pm »
The funny thing is the actual geeks do use Apple stuff…. https://usesthis.com/interviews/rob.pike/
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #202 on: July 18, 2021, 12:09:44 pm »
I'm sure they do, maybe why people class themselves as geeks just because they bought the same brand phone a geek did.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #203 on: July 18, 2021, 12:20:09 pm »
I think most apple purchasers buy their stuff because it conveys status.

I buy it because it actually works properly.
 
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Offline greasemonkey

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #204 on: July 18, 2021, 12:34:34 pm »
This is how I have been sending MS (I am running Windows 10 pro) to hell for the last 3-4 years:

1) My PC (and instruments) are behind a router (a cheap one running OpenWRT).
2) I configured the firewall on the router to completely reject any traffic from my PC.
3) The programs that need internet (e.g. browser, mail client) get internet through a proxy (actually a beaglebone black on the same network because the router is too slow to handle the traffic).

No updates, no viruses, no nagging. Also Windows and other programs cannot "call home" telling the galactic overlords what kind of (engineering) porn I am watching :-DD.

I know this solution is not for everyone but it sure works for me.  :-+
My moderately uninteresting blog: https://btbm.ch
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #205 on: July 18, 2021, 12:42:32 pm »
User: hey I know better.  I turned off all updates. Works for me!

Everyone in the IT industry:  :palm:  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

Remote attack vector in your case is pretty bad. Windows defender has a sandbox escalation vulnerability which just requires you to receive an email with bad code in it. You don’t even have to open the email. Machine owned.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2021, 12:44:08 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline greasemonkey

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #206 on: July 18, 2021, 12:47:40 pm »
User: hey I know better.  I turned off all updates. Works for me!

Everyone in the IT industry:  :palm:  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

I understand what you're saying and you are right. I am actually updating (I should have said no unscheduled updates). I just do it offline. Basically I turned off the internet.
My moderately uninteresting blog: https://btbm.ch
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #207 on: July 18, 2021, 12:48:47 pm »
For widespread adoption you need both an OS that the everyday user can use and for the wider software industry to support that OS so that finding programs and being able to run them is simple.
For widespread adoption, we have Windows and MacOS.

So long as things remain as they are Windows will dominate and those with money may buy apple and then call themselves geeks.
When you cater to the lowest common denominator with backwards compatibility, you end up with Windows.  Perhaps there are a few things you don't like about Windows and would like to change, but I assure you, a large fraction of the billion or so users don't want to change those.

The only thing you can change, is your own workflow.  You asserted you could not find a tool for editing PDF files even when you were willing to pay, and I described how I routinely do that sort of stuff.  For me, the annoying detail is the font matching, if the PDF used a font I don't have, because then I have to do shenanigans.  (If it is just a typo or such, I usually try and see if editing the PostScript version is possible.)

I am not telling you you are doing things wrong, just like I never told my coworker they were doing things wrong, because they too got work done; and if it works, it works.  Reality wins over opinions every day.  (Note that I described them as capable; even though the "open sores" quips really annoyed me, I still think of them as a friend, and would not hesitate giving them a glowing recommendation if the situation ever arose.)

What I am telling you, is that you will not be happy using Linux, unless you change your approach.  Whether you want to, is up to you, and should not affect anyones opinion of your technical skills, because technical skills are not involved here, just personal preferences.

I believe the core of the "happy Linux user" is in Unix philosophy and modularism.  When you encounter a problem, you always start by splitting it into sub-problems, until you find tools to deal with those sub-problems.  Don't like your desktop environment?  Switch to another; no need to change the distro, the DE is just a set of software like everything else.  Don't like one thing or another?  Change it, and submit a patch upstream, explaining what and why; but be prepared to engage a bit, in exchange.  Want a new tool?  Describe the problem, your idea for the tool, and how it would solve that kind of problems better than the existing solutions, and you can often attract a developer to help you implement it.  Doing it right is harder, because you'd need to think about stuff like internationalization and working across desktop environments, both of which require experience, and getting experienced developers to do stuff for you is much harder.

The rules by which the free/open source software works are completely different to the rules under which proprietary commercial software works.  Both are based on competition and resource exchange ("payment"), but even the hard currency differs –– money in one; time, effort, and experience in another.

The "cost" that I personally dislike the most, is the clique-ism: when projects form a core set of developers who only interact with each other and select others, and those others always deal with "outsiders".  I just don't want to play the kind of social games that are needed to effectively cut through that.

So, I do claim that there is nothing wrong in choosing to work within the Windows environment only, or only with proprietary software; it's a valid choice.
But claiming that it is the logical or necessary choice until the free/libre software environment becomes more similar to proprietary software, that is just short-sighted bullshit.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2021, 12:50:27 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #208 on: July 18, 2021, 12:56:14 pm »
User: hey I know better.  I turned off all updates. Works for me!

Everyone in the IT industry:  :palm:  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

I understand what you're saying and you are right. I am actually updating (I should have said no unscheduled updates). I just do it offline. Basically I turned off the internet.

Ok phew. You are excused then  :-DD
 
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Offline PKTKSTopic starter

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #209 on: July 18, 2021, 12:58:29 pm »
..  I usually try and see if editing the PostScript version is possible ..


The *only*  case I found impossible to do that is when the PS itself is bitmapped.

Otherwise all cases boil down to PS editing

Paul
 

Offline Raj

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #210 on: July 18, 2021, 01:17:34 pm »
Yea but there comes the point where its pointless having 64 cores just to open a PDF.... how much hardware and resources do we waste just to keep companies in business? 99% of machines just need 4 cores at most foe everyday office work. If an employer thinks that having a workforce equipped with machines that can open a document in 10ms instead or 100ms is going to make them more productive they need shooting!
I do know that few of those cores can be turned off, in bios. But, how much power (consumption and output) does it make to do so?
Yea, I sort of do that with my laptop, I make it wort 0.9GHz instead of 1.8 overclocking to 3.4GHz, the fan shuts up and battery lasts longer, but yes what apple have done takes care of that automatically.
so do I, Summers are brutal here with >39 deg. Celsius ambient.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #211 on: July 18, 2021, 01:31:03 pm »
..  I usually try and see if editing the PostScript version is possible ..
The *only*  case I found impossible to do that is when the PS itself is bitmapped.
Some PDF (and PS) files originating in Asia I've seen have mapped latin alphabet to some really odd code points.  Copy-pasting text from such PDF files yields garbage.  I guess you could reverse-engineer the code points from that, but my quick and dirty solution is to convert the page to paths instead.

Summers are brutal here with >39 deg. Celsius ambient.
I'm physically part arctic seal.  I sleep best at +17°C, work best under +25°C, and at +30°C and above am reduced to a smelly sweat-producing semisentient blob.
 

Offline DiTBho

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #212 on: July 18, 2021, 01:59:44 pm »
Sorry but general usability on latest gnome software is abysmal. Really awful. It’s a shit show.

There is always the old CDE project  :D
The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #213 on: July 18, 2021, 02:10:02 pm »
Sorry but general usability on latest gnome software is abysmal. Really awful. It’s a shit show.

There is always the old CDE project  :D

I was stuck in front of CDE/Motif equipped sun kit doing stuff in Cadence for a while. I’d take it over gnome 3!
 

Offline madires

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #214 on: July 18, 2021, 02:46:14 pm »
I was stuck in front of CDE/Motif equipped sun kit doing stuff in Cadence for a while. I’d take it over gnome 3!

There you go:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/motif/
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #215 on: July 18, 2021, 02:54:44 pm »
Niiiiice. Look at that visual consistency and discoverability. Almost as good as NT was!  :clap:

Edit: incidentally fuck XFCE. I decided to try that out a few months ago and they hadn’t managed to ship a single theme with borders wide enough to use as drag handles  :palm:
« Last Edit: July 18, 2021, 02:57:05 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline PKTKSTopic starter

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #216 on: July 18, 2021, 04:20:22 pm »

Way before that "NT thing" using the "modern look feel Win9x"..

OpenWin desktop bundled in Slackware  was (may be still is) a decade ahead that shit.

I took some time and effort  keeping all my systems binary compatible on a rolling basis .

So .. something like running 199x OpenWin desktop **TODAY** here now is still possible..

And TBH  .. with a incredible ultra small ultra fast memory footprint..
an outstanding written code base almost wo bugs...

There is no possible way to compare it with those so claimed MS beasts..
or these TODAY memory hog pigs..

2 cents of kicks for fun  :popcorn:

that thing still got my eyes although I do not use it daily.. for other reasons

Paul
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #217 on: July 18, 2021, 04:29:03 pm »
Hell no. You need some new glasses.

openwin is a poor rip off from Sun OpenLook / OpenWindows / SunView which I sat in front of through university on SunOS 4. It doesn't actually do much and is horrible to use. Everyone replaced it with twm or mwm on their x sessions so there was enough memory left in the shitty Sparc 2's to run mosaic. Damn had to STOP-A every 5 fucking minutes when openlook was grinding.

When NT4 dropped with the win95 UI running Office 95 it literally ended commercial unix on the desktop which was barely chugging along trying to push CDE out against windows 3.1's UI. It was that damn good at the time and it was 1/4 of the cost. Within 3 years of that happening our office went from stacks of HPUX and Sun kit to NT. All the back end shit was running on a collection of SPARCserver and Ultra stuff but we were connecting to it from NT.

This was peak goodness in 1998. I was using Cadence. Even that crawled onto NT with a Motif UI  :-DD. Then Windows 2000 then came along with active directory and it killed Novel, all horrible NIS/YP implementations on Unix, the lot. It was groundbreaking what you could do with your IT budget and it really did actually work.

The irony of this is that I'm typing this on the most successful of all commercial official Unix'es on RISC processor at the moment, with a turd polished UI from NeXT and no one even knows the history behind it these days or cares because they hid it all away that well :palm: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/certificates/1212p.pdf
« Last Edit: July 18, 2021, 04:36:15 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline PKTKSTopic starter

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #218 on: July 18, 2021, 04:41:45 pm »
well I never  tried it on anything other than x86...
There are small things and if compared to today they sure sucks...

But.. geez take a look on that.. it is running today now...
Recompiled some times to match new linkage of glibc and X11 ..

But still without major issues..

99.99% usable as the shot shows..  memory footprint is pathetic low

So far as I wasted some time on recompiling it it has no visible major mem leaks..

Usable. as it was in 199...ehhh 1993? probably then 1995 i rebuilt the server again...
and again in 1999...  and just kept rolling things

Paul
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #219 on: July 19, 2021, 08:38:46 am »
Niiiiice. Look at that visual consistency and discoverability. Almost as good as NT was!  :clap:

Edit: incidentally fuck XFCE. I decided to try that out a few months ago and they hadn’t managed to ship a single theme with borders wide enough to use as drag handles  :palm:

Which distro?
iratus parum formica
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #220 on: July 19, 2021, 07:50:21 pm »
I think most apple purchasers buy their stuff because it conveys status.

I buy it because it actually works properly.

Every Apple product owner I know -- which is a lot, as it covers college students, "regular people," and professionals such as musicians, composers, photographers, video producers and oh my yes engineers and scientists and developers --

doesn't give a shit about conveying status.

They (we) buy the products because they do what the user requires, they work with minimal fuss and bother, and they last longer than Windows and Android hardware.

That notion of "status" is broadcast by people who dislike Apple for whatever reason. Usually when someone says something anti-Apple it's because they really have no clue.

What I have not understood is why the EDA business supports Linux (well, Red Hat Enterprise) and dicks around trying to make sure the Linux stuff runs on Windows, while all along there has been a better Unix-on-the-desktop experience called macOS that would be easier for everyone involved. Sure, they "claim" that "nobody has ever asked for the tools to run on macOS," but that's bullshit and they know it.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #221 on: July 19, 2021, 07:56:13 pm »
Niiiiice. Look at that visual consistency and discoverability. Almost as good as NT was!  :clap:

Edit: incidentally fuck XFCE. I decided to try that out a few months ago and they hadn’t managed to ship a single theme with borders wide enough to use as drag handles  :palm:

Which distro?

It's not any particular distribution. It's a flaw in the design of themes for Xfwm which were designed by people who had never consulted their users about what they want out of a computer.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #222 on: July 19, 2021, 08:00:35 pm »
I think most apple purchasers buy their stuff because it conveys status.

I buy it because it actually works properly.

Every Apple product owner I know -- which is a lot, as it covers college students, "regular people," and professionals such as musicians, composers, photographers, video producers and oh my yes engineers and scientists and developers --

doesn't give a shit about conveying status.

They (we) buy the products because they do what the user requires, they work with minimal fuss and bother, and they last longer than Windows and Android hardware.

That notion of "status" is broadcast by people who dislike Apple for whatever reason. Usually when someone says something anti-Apple it's because they really have no clue.

What I have not understood is why the EDA business supports Linux (well, Red Hat Enterprise) and dicks around trying to make sure the Linux stuff runs on Windows, while all along there has been a better Unix-on-the-desktop experience called macOS that would be easier for everyone involved. Sure, they "claim" that "nobody has ever asked for the tools to run on macOS," but that's bullshit and they know it.

Actually no about 50% of the people I know are entirely clueless and went with Apple so they can show off the logo. They buy an iPhone Pro and can't take a photo with the thing  :-//. That's a significant market share, larger than the professional userbase. I'm in the professional userbase side of things.

Your last point is spot on. I got told that for years working in fintech "everyone uses windows". Culture shock it has been getting rid of all that shitty ActiveX I told them not to build, desktop win32 apps I told them not to build and all that IE specific shit. They they all use iPads and Macbooks now. I think our windows userbase is only corporate cube farms.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #223 on: July 19, 2021, 08:47:51 pm »
Niiiiice. Look at that visual consistency and discoverability. Almost as good as NT was!  :clap:

Edit: incidentally fuck XFCE. I decided to try that out a few months ago and they hadn’t managed to ship a single theme with borders wide enough to use as drag handles  :palm:

Which distro?
It's not any particular distribution. It's a flaw in the design of themes for Xfwm which were designed by people who had never consulted their users about what they want out of a computer.
I use Fedora with XFCE. I change nothing from the default install, and I'm pretty happy with the way it behaves. I doubt we'll ever again see something as well thought out for efficiency as NeXTStep, but XFCE is OK.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Please MS just go to hell...
« Reply #224 on: July 19, 2021, 08:51:08 pm »
You can buy a modern NeXTstep machine from Argos these days  :-DD
 


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