Laptop for "programming"

[james_s]

No, that's definition of "you have been just lucky" 
And when you are not lucky, well ...
the same Apple centers don't have any interest in repairing machines older than four years.

What laptop manufactures are interested in repairing machines older than 4 years? I haven't needed to try, but I bet if I took my 2015 X250 into a Lenovo dealer with a problem they'd ask me to take a look at their latest models.

There was a series of Macbooks that were notoriously unreliable, but others have been quite good. I know quite a few people who have been using the same one for years, and my employer has well over 100 of them in service with very few failures.

[Mechatrommer]

What you've missed is that they are still working without problems after nine years?
That's the definition of "quality".

To me, that's the definition of "you have been just lucky" 

i think i'll agree with the definition. because my custom build PC (the cheapest possible route) is now reaching more than 10 years already. and with that definition.... i know this thread is about laptop, i have Gigabyte minibook maybe for more than 4-5 years now, still working but battery's dead.

the same Apple centers don't have any interest in repairing machines older than four years.

What laptop manufactures are interested in repairing machines older than 4 years? I haven't needed to try, but I bet if I took my 2015 X250 into a Lenovo dealer with a problem they'd ask me to take a look at their latest models.

brand-independent shops like Rossman and many techy/PC shops will take anything, thats why next time if i need another laptop (not a fan) i'll buy the cheapest option, but still recognizable brand such as Acer, HP, Lenovo etc and wont expect for aftersale service beyond warranty period. buying overpriced is like a large portion of the price is for so called "free" repair service within the extra warranty period maybe like 3-4 years (do we have such thing?), during the period when laptop is still have no problem at all (as mentioned... if lucky, regardless of brands including that bitten fruit logo) after that, the money/service is considered burnt, so no point in paying in first place anyway. or its still cheaper buying another brand + the cost repairing in any year/period in normal repair shop. or just repair ourself, i heard the bitten-fruit is is way much harder to diy-repair/upgrade.

[David Hess]

As it will be mainly for this "programming" and maybe some other simple stuff, I don't need one with a mighty GPU or fancy screen. So, what should I look for?

I would start by looking for a keyboard with cupped keys (no chicklets), an IPS matte screen, and several full size USB B ports.

[brucehoult]

What you've missed is that they are still working without problems after nine years?

That's the definition of "quality".

To me, that's the definition of "you have been just lucky" 

ok.

Last October I visited my 80 year old parents for a week. My dad complained that he'd wanted to find and send someone a photo from a trip they'd made some years ago, but it and several hundred others were missing (based on dates and camera photo sequence numbers). Could I figure out what had happened and "recover" them somehow.

I took a look at Photos on his new 16" MacBook Pro. Yup, missing.

Ok, let's look at your old machine. I grabbed his 2011 17" MBP off the shelf (same as mine -- I bought two of them used in 2014 and upgraded them with more RAM and an SSD). I booted it up, opened iPhoto .. the same photos were missing.

Ok, how about the previous machine? I grabbed the 2006 2.33 GHz Core 2 Duo 17" MBP off the shelf, booted it. Hmm .. seems to boot, but there's no display. Ok, let's try an external monitor. Yup .. and we're in ... open iPhoto .. and that photo range is also missing.

Ok, next..  I grabbed the 2001 "Pismo" 500 MHz G3 PowerBook off the shelf. Hmm .. it goes "boing", the screen comes on, but they it shows a Sad Mac. But it seems like the disk is spinning. OK. I plug a firewire 400 cable from the 2006 machine (with external monitor) to the G3, hold down the "T" key and start it. Bingo! Its disk shows up on the desktop of the MBP. I do "switch libraries" in iPhoto.

Turns out that range of photos is also missing from that machine -- but there are only about 100 more photos after the range. I think dad just lost or forgot to import one memory card from that trip and *never* had those photos on a computer.

Yeah, there were some things broken on those 15 to 20 year old machines. But they basically were working. Reinstalling the OS on the 2001 G3 might even get it going properly -- all the hardware seemed to work. Or at most a new hard disk.

Fundamentally, they are not being used now just because they are too slow, have too little RAM, and don't run current software.

I have a 1998 "Main Street" 266 MHz G3 PowerBook that still goes. I boot it up occasionally because it has *all* the old school I/O: SCSI not Firewire), ADB not USB. Well -- and just to see if it still works. It's running an early version of OS X and can communicate via ethernet and/or the WIFI PC card.

[0db]

If you ever think about working with Xilinx FPGAs, you should probably find something with a 4 core 8 thread CPU.  Xilinx Vivado is pretty grim under the best of circumstances.

I have just tested Vivado on two laptops:

• Lenovo Carbon X1, 1st gen, Intel Core i7-3667U, 2 cores, 4 threads
• Lenovo Carbon X1, 8th gen, Intel Core i7-10510U, 4 cores, 8 threads

Ok, we are comparing a 2008 laptop with a 2020 laptop ...

The 10510U (2019) has better power consumption and higher memory bandwidth, owing to faster supported memory, but for compiling single C files (and not using distCC) on the SSD I slightly appreciated the the base frequency of the i7-3667U (2008), higher than the frequency of the Intel i7-10510U.

But for Vivado there is no game play: ok, the memory is faster with the 10510U, but more CPU cores on the i7-10510U help to process many simultaneous threads or processes, and it's more than evident because it completes the synthesis *considerably* faster 

It can't be so fast for just the faster memory, it's also thanks to more threads that helps a lot.
I think.

Does it even use multiple cores?

So to answer this question: I think yes 

[brucehoult]

[

Does it even use multiple cores?

So to answer this question: I think yes 

You should look at the performance tab of task manager to check that. At least I think that's what Windows calls it -- sorry if that's not quite right.

Or I should check Vivado on my 32 core machine :-)

[0db]

I started Vivado with the same project loaded on both laptops, and I looked at the wrist watch.

[brucehoult]

I started Vivado with the same project loaded on both laptops, and I looked at the wrist watch.

You didn't give any actual figures for what "considerably" faster was.

i7-3667U: 3.2 Ghz, 4 MB L2 cache
i7-10510U: 4.9 GHz, 8 MB L2 cache

Ivy Bridge to Comet lake is probably at *least* 1.5x the IPC. I don't have those exact models but in my primes test (very branchy code, fits entirely in L1 cache) the "Kaby Lake Refresh" 8650U already does 1.65x the IPC of an Ivy Bridge.

So let's say 1.5x or 1.6x for IPC, 4.9/3.2 = 1.53x for clock speed and you're looking at maybe 2.3x to 2.5x faster on single core code. The double sized L2 cache might just be supporting that (it'll be running at higher frequency too) but it's also possible it improves the hit rate enough to substantially improve the speed regardless of CPU performance.

If it's using all the available cores effectively then I'd expect to see around 5x faster.

But it's impossible to know without using a performance monitor to observe what the actual bottleneck is for Vivado on a project of your size.

[olkipukki]

Did Vivado drop or allow to set general.maxThreads to unlimited number in the latest versions? 

[olkipukki]

To me, that's the definition of "you have been just lucky" 

Lucky me!

Macbook Pro 13" late-2013 Retina dual-core 2.8 GHz i7, 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD, I would say one of the best laptop I ever have, and $$$ well invested and pay back many times. As today, still in use. 
Also, 2011 mac mini server i7 2Ghz another well build machine. 

Between 2011 and 2013 the cooling system was not brilliant (to be polite) with the macbook pro, and as result doing some heavy video editing too often usually ended with toasted (fried gpu) machines that users like me had to send back to Apple for repairing.

If you give Offiziersmesser to a carpenter, builder or chef - they still can do something with it, but would be pain in @$$ to use it on a daily basis...

[olkipukki]

PS
Don't want to spend a fortune just for this!

That's tricky part, to set a budget and stick to it (without ifs and buts) 

[PerranOak]

True. I've never done it yet!

This is why I still have my amazing Aspire : scared I'll spend a fortune!

[james_s]

On the other hand, down the road I don't think I've ever wished I'd spent less on a tool. Many times I have regretted buying cheap though and wished I had just spent the extra money. When I bought my laptop in 2015 I splurged and bought the top of the line CPU. I cringed at the cost but now I'm glad I did because 5 years later I'm still using it. Had I bought the slower one I'd probably be looking at upgrading already.

[PerranOak]

Good point. Someone once said something like: “buy quality and cry only once”.

[0db]

Good point. Someone once said something like: “buy quality and cry only once”.

I worked in a design studio between 2012 and 2015. I remember we bought six Apple MBP 2013. For each laptop we paid 2000 euro  for the "quality", but five of them got in the need of being sent back to Apple for repairing. The cooling system of those laptops was simply inappropriate and insufficient, and they got the GPU fried like chips. And it happened more than two times, untill laptops got finally replaced with Lenovo Carbon X1. I remember we had to move from FinalCut to Premiere to complete the jobs for our customers.

It was a full disaster. We lost a lot of money.

Did we pay for the quality? Sure, we did!
Did we cry only once? No. Many more times.

This yeas I am back with Finalcut. I asked a bank loan and bought a new MBP 2020 with a new version of FinalCut. I have "hope", but not so much, thus I also subscribed a contract by which a insurance company provides a guarantee of compensation for any specified loss or damage caused by any mulfunction of my MBP.

"buy quality, subscribe insurance, and cry only once"

[brucehoult]

Good point. Someone once said something like: “buy quality and cry only once”.

I worked in a design studio between 2012 and 2015. I remember we bought six Apple MBP 2013. For each laptop we paid 2000 euro  for the "quality", but five of them got in the need of being sent back to Apple for repairing. The cooling system of those laptops was simply inappropriate and insufficient, and they got the GPU fried like chips. And it happened more than two times, untill laptops got finally replaced with Lenovo Carbon X1. I remember we had to move from FinalCut to Premiere to complete the jobs for our customers.

It was a full disaster. We lost a lot of money.

Laptops for heavy duty video editing is just a dumb idea. Get an iMac at *least*. Preferably Mac Pro -- if you're doing it professionally the extra productivity is absolutely worth it. Laptops simply don't have the cooling. None of them. Even if the headline GHz looks good.

I've got two machines with the same Core-i7 8650U CPU -- a NUC and a Carbon X1. On long CPU intensive tasks such as a large program build the NUC is up to 50% faster. For example an LLVM build takes 40 minutes on the NUC but 60 minutes on the laptop. Both start out with all cores at 3.4 GHz. The laptop falls away from that sooner and eventually gets down to around 2.0 GHz. The NUC stays at 3.4 for several minutes and then eventually settles down at 2.8 to 3.0 GHz (I've *never* seen it below 2..

My 32 core ThreadRipper does that LLVM build in 4 minutes. I paid about US$4500 to build it.

That might seem like a lot of money (or $10k for a Mac Pro) but it's *nothing* compared to the $100k or $200k or more revenue that a professional brings into a company in a year. If it improves productivity by even 5% or 10% then it's worth it. In reality it will be far more than that.

It's crazy how people using computers balk at capital expenditure. Other independent contractors have to buy hydraulic excavators or trucks for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even car mechanics are laying out tens of thousands for equipment.

[0db]

Laptops for heavy duty video editing is just a dumb idea. Get an iMac at *least*. Preferably Mac Pro -- if you're doing it professionally

We needed to work in mobility, out of our company, at customer's offices. Thus we bought laptops.

[RenThraysk]

If already have a video editing workstation, pretty easy to utilise it over the network, so power of the laptop becomes less of an issue.

Eg Parsec for Teams. https://parsecgaming.com/teams/

[Doctorandus_P]

I particularly need enough USB ports to run a debugger, CAN bus monitor and at least one COM port, and that's a limiting factor. Laptops really don't seem to be as expandable as they used to be.

Euhm, That is where hubs are for!
Especially when involved in electronics, programming uC's etc, I would never plug these devices directly into my PC / Laptop, but always use a (probably powered) USB hub.

In such a case, if you inadvertently put 12Vdc on some wires of the USB cable, then you are likely to blow out the hub, but are unlikely to damage the USB port on your PC or laptop.

[brucehoult]

I commented here a couple of months ago but I've since actually done some research and bought a new programming laptop.

Lenovo had a nice special on the rather new (since this thread started!) E14 Gen 2 with Ryzen 5 4500U 6 core CPU. I got one with 8 GB RAM (expandable to 16, 24, or 40 GB by adding a SODIMM) and 256 GB SSD for NZ$1099 (£560, $730) including tax and shipping.

At 1.64 kg it's not as thin and light as an X1 Carbon, but it's also a fraction of the price. My old 2011 laptop was 3.0 kg so it's a big reduction. The ports are only 2x USB, 1 ethernet, 1 HDMI, headphone, and 1 USB-C for charging. I assume that's usable for docking also but I haven't checked.

That Zen 2 CPU is super quick. I'm impressed. It also runs much cooler than Intel CPUs.

[Doctorandus_P]

I particularly need enough USB ports to run a debugger, CAN bus monitor and at least one COM port, and that's a limiting factor. Laptops really don't seem to be as expandable as they used to be.
...

I always use an external (preferably powered) USB hub for tinkering with electronics.
It's just too easy to damage an USB port by for example accidentally touching a wire with 12Vdc from some raw power supply.

[PerranOak]

... and they protect the PC? Always?

[Wuerstchenhund]

if you buy something with quality hardware. I'm still running a 2011 Core-i9 11" MacBook Air (4 GB RAM) and a 2011 Core-i9 17" MacBook Pro (16 GB RAN, 256 GB SSD, 750 GB hard disk) with no problems

Quality hardware? with Apple 2011 laptops? In the same sentence?
I think I have just missed something ...

I have a 2012 MacBook Pro 13" running Catalina that still works fine, despite being on its 3rd battery (the current one is a 2-Power one, which make great replacement batteries). Aside from the fact that Apple thought it's a good idea to make a laptop shell from a soft aluminum alloy that dents easily it's a quite capable and durable machine compared with other Apple laptops (even though the actual hardware and the overall robustness is still quite poor compared with the HP Elitebooks from the same era).

Things have improved only after 2018 and they are keep getting a little better (except the "touchbar", but at least the cooling system is now "ok"), thus I would suggest to stay away from everything ever made and sold before two years ago.

I wouldn't recommend to buy anything that old from Apple, either, but mostly because 8+ years is a long time (and who knows how much use a 2nd hand laptop has seen in that time) and also because of Apple's planned obsolescence (it's a bit silly that Macs are longer supported by Microsoft's OS than by Apple's). And even with these old MacBooks repairs can be difficult (for example, the keyboard is part of the upper base frame and can't be replaced on its own).

And with newer machines there's always the chance that Apple introduced another design flaw which only comes to light later and which may or may not be fixable (like the recently found T2 security hole which isn't), and even if it is may or may not be fixed by Apple free of charge.

So unless someone really wants mac OS then I'd look to another brand than Apple for a laptop. As others said, corporate models from HP, Dell and Lenovo are generally a good choice.

BTW, I'm typing this on a HP zBook 15 G3 mobile workstation which I bought a year ago for something around $600 in as-new condition. Mine's got an i7-6820HQ 4C 2.7Ghz processor, 64GB of RAM (although this was an upgrade from the 8GB it came with), a very good 1920x1080 IPS panel and an Nvidia Quadro M2000 4GB graphics card (MXM module so it's replaceable) in addition to the intel GPU. One of the two M.2 NVMe slots holds a 1TB SSD (also an upgrade, the original SSD was 512GB). It also has a very good backlit keyboard and two Thunderbolt 3 ports. It's robust and sturdy, and can easily be repaired or upgraded.

There's a lot of good hardware on the used market.

[0db]

HP, Dell and Lenovo are generally a good choice

The new Lenovo X nano looks interesting.