Author Topic: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?  (Read 36483 times)

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Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #300 on: August 10, 2019, 04:33:37 am »
I picked up two of those inland NVME drives 1TB, on sight, for $94 each about a month ago due to price. They are fast, way faster than stated on the package. The 1TB version has endurance rating of 1.6 petabytes...

There are a bunch of these under other brands (e12 based), identical pcb under sticker/heatsink based on same phison ref design and possibly just rebrands.... identical to the point that the firmware is compatible across vendors, which makes it so you can update the inland drives (or any other). The inland versions are not over-provisioned so you have full storage (some of the others using ref design are over provisioned, which currently cant be changed. Benchmarks don't show performance difference). Inland has 3 year warranty vs 5 year from others, but wear rating same and same parts. Inland is the lowest cost one I know of.

To get best performance / life out of them, you have to low level format the NVME namespace to change the sector size from 512b to 4kb, these support 4k but shipped with 512 for compatibility. It is a NVME specific command, currently no way I know of to pass it using windows drivers (I used linux live CD). See https://filers.blogspot.com/2018/12/how-to-format-nvme-drive.html

Also, I modded intel nvme enterprise drivers meant for intel nvme drives to load with the inland nvme..just to see what would happen... actually boots. I don't know of anyone else doing this (first?) so I don't know if it's really data-safe yet, but I have been using for few weeks now with these drives and 100% functions without issue as far as I can tell. In Anvil benchmark, it scores 20% higher overall and half the latency for some reads vs the microsoft nvme driver.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 04:35:56 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #301 on: August 11, 2019, 01:34:54 pm »
For anyone interested:

 

Offline beanflyingTopic starter

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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #303 on: August 11, 2019, 01:52:03 pm »
Yep... It deserves, my bad!
 

Offline beanflyingTopic starter

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #304 on: August 12, 2019, 02:45:13 am »
Not Bad ;) Rather than lose it in this ramble it is fairly specific post build I guess.

For others following later this one popped up today $1040 USD Ryzen 3600 16Gb build with an RX5700  :o build. Fairly much a Gamer spec with that card in it but add a bit of extra cheap storage and it would do the workhorse thing well too.


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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #305 on: August 12, 2019, 09:16:38 am »
Unfortunately US prices never get the same application in the other side of the pond...

Specially in Australia were things are outrageous stealing the money out of the wallet.

In Europe, same parts will add around 150 to 200 euros more to the final price, and if you find compatibles you still can't get lower that 100 euros more.

 

Offline beanflyingTopic starter

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #306 on: August 12, 2019, 10:20:06 am »
Yep Oz generally sux. It was still surprising when buying for my build it was still cheapest to buy from Bricks and Mortar stores using evilbay plus discounts compared to Online with the same stores and Amazon  :horse: is a stinker locally.

If I wanted to walk up to a counter and buy a CPU for example it would be a 4 hour drive in my case. Prebuilt and over priced or under performing is 20 minutes away but that just wasn't an option I would consider. The last good guy doing builds locally has moved onto making $ elsewhere with Computers.

USD no tax is just a sensible way to compare pricing around the world.

3700 and 3700XT cards sound like they are due in the next month so more drooling and weaiting for another few months until the bugs are worked out.
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Offline beanflyingTopic starter

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #307 on: August 13, 2019, 12:47:33 pm »
Before I have a play with getting a little more out of the beasty with tinkering I downloaded a few other benchmarks for a pre and post number to see if the work is worth the bother.

Sisoft numbers back in the thread. Seems to be more or less not used by reviewers but I have used it on and off since XP days.

Cinebench 20 ran at 4841 all core and 509 single core.

Heaven was over 100FPS @ 1080P, High got 2837 and ultra was 2529.

Timespy as a Gamer style Benchmark showed up the lack of high end GPU but  :-// care factor isn't high CPU 9476, GPU 4298 ans overall 4671. The first of the 5700 and 5700xt partner cards hit the market yesterday  ;D

PC and 3D mark are below and if the numbers are right it kicks the butt of a bunch of other tested boxes for a workhorse.
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Offline beanflyingTopic starter

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #308 on: August 15, 2019, 03:23:48 am »
With the Memory thing on this box happy and resulting in a stable gain I started looking what was possible on the CPU front. The answer seems inconclusive over the Ryzen Master boosting.  :-// During the bench marking runs I have been doing my 3700X has been topping 4.3GHz on most cores and the following video is worth a watch and makes me tend to just want to leave it alone and in the hands of AMD's software.



Gigabytes 5700XT OC version looks great too, still waiting on real world testing. $420USD is the rumored pricing.



And if your German is any good ASUS's 3 fan offering over 2GHz on boost  :o

https://www.computerbase.de/2019-08/asus-radeon-rx-5700-xt-strix-test/

« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 03:31:18 am by beanflying »
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Offline mnementh

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #309 on: August 17, 2019, 06:17:04 am »
Yeah, that's been my experience as well. I COULD theoretically squeeze a tiny bit more out of it manually tuning the RAM timing... but in practice the best I've pulled out of mine has been letting AMD OC both CPU & RAM.

Speaking of which... guess it's going to be a while before I can buy my 2nd 16GB kit of RAM at a reasonable price... https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/ballistix-dram-crushes-world-ddr4-overclocking-record-at-5726mt-s.255597/

If I'd known about that that when I bought mine, I'd have gotten 2 kits while it was $104.  |O I just bought it because A) Price:Spec (DDR4-3600/CAS16) was excellent and 2) Ballistix, same brand I ran on my last build for almost 10 years.

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Offline beanflyingTopic starter

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #310 on: August 17, 2019, 06:42:30 am »
You may not get much of a benefit with your 3600 (think that's what you got?) but on the CL16 3200 it was worth the effort when teamed with the 3700X. The stock tweaks Ryzen Master allows or does automatically for memory isn't much.

Plenty of stock Factory AMD 5700XT's going out cheap locally from about $365 USD plus tax with the releasing of the partner cards. Still waiting impatiently for the partner ones to sort out any bugs on them for something I really really don't 'need' but will likely buy regardless :-DD
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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #311 on: August 17, 2019, 12:01:38 pm »
You may not get much of a benefit with your 3600 (think that's what you got?) but on the CL16 3200 it was worth the effort when teamed with the 3700X. The stock tweaks Ryzen Master allows or does automatically for memory isn't much.

Plenty of stock Factory AMD 5700XT's going out cheap locally from about $365 USD plus tax with the releasing of the partner cards. Still waiting impatiently for the partner ones to sort out any bugs on them for something I really really don't 'need' but will likely buy regardless :-DD

Yes they are cheaper but remember that the stock cooler will be always more toasty and loud that the non reference cards. That's mainly the reason why there are a lot of Factory ones being sold in the second hand market now that the aftermarket, well engineered coolers are available.

Even by AMD saying that the temperatures are OK, sorry but no,  even the normal usage temperatures are too high for my own taste.



Quote
[Rant ON]

For me anything that touches the 70sC are too hot for my taste. I know bla bla bla, it's a lot lower that the max temperature that is 115C with auto shutdown but STILL ITS TOO DAMN HIGH!

I even hate the temperatures of my own laptop under full tilt and can't do anything against it, and they aren't that high, in the 80s. Clean the intake and exhaust holes, disassembly of the cooler with change in thermal interface plus new thermal pads, clean of the fan blades and this shit even after that doesn't got that lower, just 5C that it's still too damn high for me.

The market tendency of slim and quiet really is a FUD. Yes is nice to have a slim, beautiful and quiet PC/Laptop, but I prefer something functional, big, well engineered, with no compromises. And when I say no compromises is good cooling system. If it makes the laptop thicker like 1CM or 2CM, so be it, do it. If it makes it larger and heavier, so be it, do it. Instead of using small, high RPM centrifugal fans, use bigger slower ones, and with optimise hot and cold air paths. Spend money on the engineering, instead of a one solution fits all!

Well but I will stop... :rant: :horse:
[Rant OFF]
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #312 on: August 17, 2019, 01:34:08 pm »
Yeah, keeping the GPU cool is yet ANOTHER reason to go liquid-cooled with a decent 240mm AIO/radiator in the roof. Internal case temp dropped by about 20°C compared to my FX-8350 air-cooled, plus turns the entire box into a positive-pressure straight-thru wind tunnel. That makes high-wattage, air-cooled GPUs like my factory OC'd RX-580 MUCH happier. I expect it will be an absolute necessity with the new crop of GPUs just coming out.

You may not get much of a benefit with your 3600 (think that's what you got?) but on the CL16 3200 it was worth the effort when teamed with the 3700X. The stock tweaks Ryzen Master allows or does automatically for memory isn't much.

Plenty of stock Factory AMD 5700XT's going out cheap locally from about $365 USD plus tax with the releasing of the partner cards. Still waiting impatiently for the partner ones to sort out any bugs on them for something I really really don't 'need' but will likely buy regardless :-DD

The benefit for me is right there in the chart.  ;)  3800MHz 16-18-18 with everything Auto-OC. fCLK right at the magical 1800MHz-ish figure and 67.4ns latency.  For $104/16GB definitely a good deal; for current $150-ish/16GB, different story altogether.   :-\

mnem
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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #313 on: August 17, 2019, 02:03:16 pm »
Yeah, keeping the GPU cool is yet ANOTHER reason to go liquid-cooled with a decent 240mm AIO/radiator in the roof. Internal case temp dropped by about 20°C compared to my FX-8350 air-cooled, plus turns the entire box into a positive-pressure straight-thru wind tunnel. That makes high-wattage, air-cooled GPUs like my factory OC'd RX-580 MUCH happier. I expect it will be an absolute necessity with the new crop of GPUs just coming out.

mnementh don't get me wrong, as things looked like some weeks ago. I'm not against watercooling, mind it. I perfectly agree that water as a heat transfer medium is better than air and it is the future.

What I'm against is low quality bad made AIO that have a time to live before they get empty or damaged by low quality materials or pump failures and that don't allow you to change the liquid or change the part with the problem. And in that I include most of the AIO being sold in the market. What I'm against is the use of bad quality watercooling in expensive equipment that are mission critical. Things that can't stop and are expensive to replace in case of failure.

Even Custom watercooling, were you bought your brand of radiators, pumps, fittings, blocks, and tube not all brands are equal (Thermaltake is normally regarded as one of the lowest, with EKWB one of the best ones).

That's why I say that I still prefer air cooling for mission critical machines. That until we have AIOs with the reliability of an Air Cooler, where you change a fan, dust if off and change the thermal interface and forget.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 02:27:04 pm by Black Phoenix »
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #314 on: August 17, 2019, 04:35:45 pm »
Yeah, I used to say the same about motorcycles... until I tried to do fuel-injection on an air-cooled Yamaha. The short version is it's nearly impossible to program a fuel-air table that can mix properly for the entire temp range of an air-cooled engine and still provide  "accelerator pump" instant-enrichment AND proper timing advance/retard as needed. You'll either be always running rich, or too advanced for the temp, or you'll dump so much fuel it pops back through the carbs and starts fires.  :scared:   Go liquid-cooled with proper thermal regulation, and bam... perfect metering 98% of the time, plus burns clean AND about 30% more power per CC. AND supercharging ceases to be a pipe-dream and becomes street-driveable.

The point being... things evolve. Lets face it; the last 30 years have been this stage:      Right now we're at about this stage:      

You're looking at AIOs the wrong way.... you're looking at them the same way we USED TO look at the radiator in that T-bucket: a hand-crafted piece of equipment meant to last decades. Nowadays, radiators are a commodity product with a 5-12 year design life. But get this; all BS and "lost art" arguments set aside, today's automotive radiators, plastic tanks, limited lifespan and all... are cm³ for cm³ twice as effective at carrying away heat almost across the board.

AND they manage something those old brass & copper monsters never did: to not become an environmental disaster. No lead solder, and because of the way aluminum doesn't interact with common coolants used in ICEs, they almost never gel up and clog full of ethylene sludge that pollutes everything with a dozen carcinogens when they get melted down. AND because of this, flushing them before melting down the cores is now part of the recycling process; as is reclaimed coolant.

AIOs have become just that: a commodity product with a fixed lifespan and when they fuck up you replace the entire assembly. Even the cheap ones have a decent micro-channel copper cooling block, glas-filled polymer plastic parts and one moving part with a ceramic bearing on the impeller (Okay; two moving parts on units with a mechanical flow sensor). By dint of their design they greatly reduce or eliminate three major issues:

1) Leaks. Sealed system, filled at factory with proper amount of expansion overhead. Unlike "custom system" coolers, all connections are permanently crimped, and decades of engineering history has already proven in automotive use that such hose connections are easily good for a decade under the most adverse conditions. Argue all you like about leaks in principle; but the fact is that leaks in this type of assembly are so rare as to be statistically insignificant.

2) Noise. Liquid-cooling operates at much lower velocity than air-cooled solutions. Much less noise.

3) Dust contamination. Because they operate at much lower velocity, they carry much less particulate matter through the chassis. Dust accumulation in the case is greatly reduced.

Now environmentally... obviously not as friendly as big chunks of aluminum extrusion that melt down with near-zero waste. But that is getting better; automotive recycling processes directly apply, and as we learn to make electrolysis-fighting radiator/cooling-block assemblies, and the standard of the industry moves towards better, ion-inert coolants, that lifespan will only increase.

But first, the manufacturers have to realize that there is demand for this. And that comes from one thing: feedback from the people doing deployment. And that WILL come; as processors become more powerful and the need for higher processor density continues to increase, the reality that air-cooling just doesn't cut it anymore will sink in for even the most reluctant datacenter management teams. It really is only a matter of time; I fully expect to see processors factory-equipped with integrated liquid cooling become commonplace in my lifetime; same with GPUs.

We REALLY ARE at that point already; "The Future" is NOW.  ;)

Cheers,

mnem
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 05:02:13 pm by mnementh »
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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #315 on: August 23, 2019, 02:56:42 am »


Just leaving this here...

I would love to be able to say as he says, " (...) And yes, yes, I am absolutely it is not necessary, I am a crazy person but... I wanted it (...)

Last times I've been building beastly systems was always for others, my last beastly system was in the old times of the AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black:

Asus M4A89GTD-PRO-USB3.0 with Corsair Dominator 16 GB (4 x 4 GB) DDR3-1866 and 2x XFX AMD Radeon HD 7870 Core Edition

After that it has been Laptop trip for me

Quote
Reason for edit - correction of specs
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 03:51:50 am by Black Phoenix »
 

Offline beanflyingTopic starter

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #316 on: August 23, 2019, 03:47:15 am »
Watched it this morning  :-+ Also an interesting look at PCIe4 drives against the EVO970's here.

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Offline mnementh

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #317 on: August 23, 2019, 06:10:35 am »
Yeah, we already know that the Flash is limiting the BW. PCIe 4.0 isn't about what you can get out of today's flash with the current crop of "interim storage devices"; it's about the next gen that's built from the ground up for those speeds. Which my experiments with nvmes in RAID show the interface can support crazy high speeds as promised; and more importantly, even on the channel served by the chipset.

I knew I was paying a premium price for bleeding edge on my MB. I'm not willing to pay it for the "half-step" SSDs being offered right now.

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« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 06:12:06 am by mnementh »
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Offline mnementh

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #318 on: August 23, 2019, 06:24:35 am »
I would love to be able to say as he says, " (...) And yes, yes, I am absolutely it is not necessary, I am a crazy person but... I wanted it (...)

Yup... no matter how much you spend on the "bleeding edge"; there's always some wing-ding ready to out-spend you.  :-DD

This build is for ME, not for what other people think. Just like my 1055T w/16GB DDR3/1333 was 10 years ago...  ;) Since I figured out what was killing my Sleep Mode, I'm loving the thing. Already at the desktop by the time the monitor finishes waking up.  >:D

mnem
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« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 06:29:01 am by mnementh »
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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #319 on: August 30, 2019, 02:21:07 am »
Another one:

 

Offline beanflyingTopic starter

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #320 on: August 30, 2019, 04:23:50 am »
Seems the first of the Gigabyte 5700 XT's is on sale locally. It would sort of complete my then $2k system  :palm:
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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #321 on: August 30, 2019, 04:46:24 am »
Go for it... Your system will thank you, your wallet will not! :-DD
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #322 on: August 30, 2019, 04:22:20 pm »
I'm moving right now, which means I'm pretty much just hemorrhaging money. Not for a while, I think.  :-\

mnem
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Offline mnementh

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #323 on: September 02, 2019, 01:20:58 am »
Interesting... I stopped back at my MB's support page to see if there's any new FW updates...



mnem
Andale!!!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 01:22:53 am by mnementh »
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Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?
« Reply #324 on: September 02, 2019, 02:06:21 am »
Interesting... I stopped back at my MB's support page to see if there's any new FW updates...



mnem
Andale!!!

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-gigabyte-pulls-pcie-4.0-support,40085.html   might impact you depending on what you have
 


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