$1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?

[Mr. Scram]

Oh FFS... $40-80 is nothing. I've spent more than that just for quieter fans. 

The pcie bus is PRECISELY why I recommended the 570X series boards; even on the 470X boards it is already a bottleneck in the disk I/O dept, even with nvme.  There won't BE any economical 550 series boards to offer the pcie4.0 bus for a while yet. This is literally a generational update from AMD, not an incremental one. 

With pcie4.0, there is a real possibility of doing nvme in RAID0, possibly even more than 2 drives fpr other RAID configs given how many more channels pcie4.0 offers. For that possibility alone it is worth waiting to see what they offer.  And as I've already pointed out, even OS on NVME + Data on 2nd nvme is STILL appreciably faster on modern content creation workloads.

mnem
 

Rather than endlessly arguing the same points and pointing out the alternatives for those $80, can you perhaps point us to benchmarks that show tangible benefits to upgrading to PCIe 4.0? Tangible in this case meaning benefits a user in the real world experiences, in contrast to higher numbers in benchmarks that a user will never experience that way. Even the difference between a SATA drive and a top end NVMe drive is hard to notice in almost all use cases. Looking at the reviews it's often hard or impossible to actually measure a difference and the difference being large enough for the end user actually perceive a difference is increasingly unlikely.

[mnementh]

I've been advocating all along that he WAIT for the 570X boards... we KNOW about pcie4.0, which in itself is enough reason for me, for the reasons stated. We still don't know what all OTHER features (Aside from latest-gen USB Support and faster built-in multi-channel WiFi which are pretty much a given with every new chipset in these lines) they will offer, especially when combined with Zen3 family processors.

Still an easy choice for me, and I'm a well-known cheap-a**.

mnem
*off to do parental-unit stuffs*

[beanflying]

For engineering tasks 8GB isn't going to cut it. Modern software is so bloated that it needs oodles of memory. When planning on using a few virtual machines then 16GB is cutting it awfully close and 32GB is a better choice. Either way, memory is so cheap nowadays that it isn't worth bothering to choose 8GB versus 16GB. Just get 16GB and make sure to leave room for expansion. For my own PC I couldn't even buy a 16GB memory upgrade because it was no longer available; I had to buy 32GB.

The links I posted before show that Fusion 360 doesn't really require more than 8 GB RAM. I won't comment on "engineering tasks" as those can be almost anything and everything. Mind you that I'm not necessarily pleading for 8 GB of RAM. I'm just arguing against throwing RAM at something blindly. VMs are one of those things you nearly can't have enough RAM for, although you can get by with smaller amounts. I don't think I've heard beanflying mention VMs at all, so that eventuality is left out of the equation.

At this point I'd probably suggest going for 16 GB of RAM, based on general computing and Fusion 360 and to have some future headroom. Depending on other requirements and what this not very well defined rendering actually entails it may pay to upgrade to more.

My current I3 8GB shack box now fitted with it's less than awesome 1GB GPU sucks balls on Fusion 360 with anything complicated and does crash. The CPU certainly won't help but 8GB would seems to be on the slim side NOW and will certainly get worse as the software gets more bloaty and powerful.

You asked too about rendering. Earlier in the thread 30-60FPS 4k video on DaVinci Resolve is what I would like to suit my Mavic ProP.

16GB NOW would be adequate but I can see that running out of legs fairly quickly 32 up front makes sense.

[Mr. Scram]

I've been advocating all along that he WAIT for the 570X boards... we KNOW about pcie4.0, which in itself is enough reason for me, for the reasons stated. We still don't know what all OTHER features (Aside from latest-gen USB Support and faster built-in multi-channel WiFi which are pretty much a given with every new chipset in these lines) they will offer, especially when combined with Zen3 family processors.

Still an easy choice for me, and I'm a well-known cheap-a**.

mnem
*off to do parental-unit stuffs*

Can you share whatever benchmarks convinced you PCIe 4.0 represents a meaningful upgrade? You seem convinced and we're obviously interested in any information you've managed to dig up. I can't find much tangible and looking at historical data discussed am not expected anything special, as much larger steps haven't provided noticeable results in the past.

[beanflying]

$150 - +/- Decent Case
$180 - 570X MB
$140 - DDR4 (Corsair Vegeance 32GB DDR4-3200; now sold out) Still average price for decent
$120 - Decent PSU
$125 - nvme SSD ~0.5GB

$60-70 for a very good case without RGB fart and other stupid whistles.
$100 MOBO
$70-80 good efficient PSU with Japanese caps and more than adequate power rating of 550-650W.
$140 1TB NVMe SSD just as fast as 970 EVO plus.
And 180+ bucks left for other more important things such as CPU.

Some of those figures are pure BS

Please show me a case for $60-70 that won't cook a Ryzen 2700x/3700X and 8GB GPU? Or more likely deafen me with screaming fans? Or one I will throw through a wall trying to install the bits in it?
There are NO ATX Motherboards with WIFI for $100 let alone one that will cope well with modern bits. The only way this is possible is mini ATX so NFW!
Currently 500GB 970 EVO Plus to my door is $96 USD with the rebate 1Tb is about $180 without looking to close.

[wraper]

Please show me a case for $60-70 that won't cook a Ryzen 2700x/3700X and 8GB GPU? Or more likely deafen me with screaming fans? Or one I will throw through a wall trying to install the bits in it?

They won't cook even in half decent $40 or even cheaper case with 1 silent fan. And above $70 cooling does not improve, only eye candy. Just in case, those are US prices. BTW GPU heat dissipation has nothing to do with amount of RAM in it.

[beanflying]

Please show me a case for $60-70 that won't cook a Ryzen 2700x/3700X and 8GB GPU? Or more likely deafen me with screaming fans? Or one I will throw through a wall trying to install the bits in it?

They won't cook even in half decent $40 or even cheaper case with 1 silent fan. And above $70 cooling does not improve, only eye candy. Just in case, those are US prices. BTW GPU heat dissipation has nothing to do with amount of RAM in it.

Show me the CASES because I still call BS on your $60-70 'claim'. And the graph you show IGNORES power supply and GPU minimum let alone the board.

[Mr. Scram]

My current I3 8GB shack box now fitted with it's less than awesome 1GB GPU sucks balls on Fusion 360 with anything complicated and does crash. The CPU certainly won't help but 8GB would seems to be on the slim side NOW and will certainly get worse as the software gets more bloaty and powerful.

You asked too about rendering. Earlier in the thread 30-60FPS 4k video on DaVinci Resolve is what I would like to suit my Mavic ProP.

16GB NOW would be adequate but I can see that running out of legs fairly quickly 32 up front makes sense.

It seems DaVinci Resolve likes RAM a lot. The recommended specifications see to say 16 GB and 32 GB for 4K, although it won't say no to more. It's up to you how important this part of your use case is and whether how it's balanced with the rest of the system. I don't think you'll get a lot of use out of it outside of DaVinci for a while to come. Upgrading later is obviously always an option if you take it into account now.

Puget systems has a nice analysis on what hardware is required. It seems IO isn't usually the bottleneck and SATA SSDs tend to suffice, so any NVMe drive should be plenty. For the purposes of the programs you outlined you won't need PCIe 4.0. Apparently the amount of VRAM and RAM are important and a video card with 8 GB of VRAM is recommended for 4K. DaVinci can use more cores than Fusion 360, but the biggest gains are definitely to be had in the <10 core count area.

https://www.pugetsystems.com/recommended/Recommended-Systems-for-DaVinci-Resolve-187/Hardware-Recommendations

[beanflying]

Current budget with a 3700X in the build $1067 USD and I can buy most of these bits for a few less $ in Oz.

[wraper]

Just a week ago I assembled computer (not for myself) in Fractal design focus G case ($50) which came with two 120mm fans included. Ryzen 1700X + GTX1070(8GB). Under stress tests it runs silent and cool enough without any additional case fans (there is place for additional 3).

[wraper]

And the graph you show IGNORES power supply and GPU minimum let alone the board.

Full system consumption with Intel Core i7-7820X @ 4.3GHz (consumes way more) and loss in PSU included.

[beanflying]

Really SIMPLE for you as you want to avoid it 'SHOW ME THE CASE' or a link to it ! You are making ambit claims of 'silent' and 'cool enough' with zero caveats or partial facts. Dumping a few hundred watts during a 30-60 minute video rendering job is not trivial or a few minutes of stress test.

I live in a climate where 40+C is common on 10-15 days a year and I have no A/C in my shack.

[Mr. Scram]

Really SIMPLE for you as you want to avoid it 'SHOW ME THE CASE' or a link to it ! You are making ambit claims of 'silent' and 'cool enough' with zero caveats or partial facts. Dumping a few hundred watts during a 30-60 minute video rendering job is not trivial or a few minutes of stress test.

I live in a climate where 40+C is common on 10-15 days a year and I have no A/C in my shack.

To be fair, these Ryzens don't seem to be very hot headed. You obviously still need to get rid of the heat.

[wraper]

Really SIMPLE for you as you want to avoid it 'SHOW ME THE CASE' or a link to it ! You are making ambit claims of 'silent' and 'cool enough' with zero caveats or partial facts. Dumping a few hundred watts during a 30-60 minute video rendering job is not trivial or a few minutes of stress test.

I live in a climate where 40+C is common on 10-15 days a year and I have no A/C in my shack.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fractal-Design-Focus-G-ATX-Mid-Tower-Computer-Case-Gunmetal-Gray/707768560

For myself I would buy something larger and bit more expensive.
That H500 cooler master is actually barely better. It costs so much because farts RGB from every hole. As of PSU you selected, it uses cheap capacitors.

[beanflying]

Really SIMPLE for you as you want to avoid it 'SHOW ME THE CASE' or a link to it ! You are making ambit claims of 'silent' and 'cool enough' with zero caveats or partial facts. Dumping a few hundred watts during a 30-60 minute video rendering job is not trivial or a few minutes of stress test.

I live in a climate where 40+C is common on 10-15 days a year and I have no A/C in my shack.

To be fair, these Ryzens don't seem to be very hot headed. You obviously still need to get rid of the heat.

That is part of the appeal of jumping from the 2700X to the 3700X is the drop in power.

Just did a quick trawl of evilbay for full sized Towers and 'junk' no name ones start at about $100 USD delivered so I will stick with my Cooler Master H500 at $106 USD delivered including our GST or about $96 ex tax  for an apples to apple comparison to other 'claims'.

[beanflying]

Really SIMPLE for you as you want to avoid it 'SHOW ME THE CASE' or a link to it ! You are making ambit claims of 'silent' and 'cool enough' with zero caveats or partial facts. Dumping a few hundred watts during a 30-60 minute video rendering job is not trivial or a few minutes of stress test.

I live in a climate where 40+C is common on 10-15 days a year and I have no A/C in my shack.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fractal-Design-Focus-G-ATX-Mid-Tower-Computer-Case-Gunmetal-Gray/707768560

For myself I would buy something larger and bit more expensive.
That H500 cooler master is actually barely better. It costs so much because farts RGB from every hole. As of PSU you selected, it uses cheap capacitors.

So you want to compare a MID sized tower to a full sized one as your comparison. Seriously what a load of BS also Walmart in case you are seemingly unaware doesn't ship to Oz. And AGAIN you make an AMBIT claim of the H500 being barely better with ZERO evidence to back it up.

You then choose to add a strawman argument of 'cheap capacitors' to your line in BS  Get your buddy Elon to bore you a deeper hole to get into.

[wraper]

So you want to compare a MID sized tower to a full sized one as your comparison. Seriously what a load of BS also Walmart in case you are seemingly unaware doesn't ship to Oz. And AGAIN you make an AMBIT claim of the H500 being barely better with ZERO evidence to back it up.

I didn't say you should buy it, neither I did recommend it. Both are mid tower, H500 is larger. All I said that even such case is enough. And the reason case you selected costs so much.

You then choose to add a strawman argument of 'cheap capacitors' to your line in BS  Get your buddy Elon to bore you a deeper hole to get into.

Cooler master likes to cheap out on their PSUs. For the same money you can buy PSU with Japanese caps inside. Thanks for being ungrateful for advise how to save on unnecessary things. I won't recommend you anything anymore.
Most reasonable workstation case ever (H500) 

[Mr. Scram]

What is it with this thread? 

[beanflying]

You offered a figure and a case of $60-70 which I called BS on being up to the job. You then tried with using more bs and crap to defend that flawed position. 'YOU OFFERED ADVICE' is the bottom line which was WRONG! Deal with it or provide evidence to backup your claim.

The full sized case now photographed I think is the H500P cooler master I did look at and there seemed little to zero physical benefits over the H500 for the extra $ so I picked the lower cost full sized case with the same fans.

When you include a strawman in part of your reply trying to defend BS why should it be taken seriously or taken for more that what it appears to be masking the facts. Top that off with your history of doing the same non argument points in other threads and yep I call BS.

[beanflying]

What is it with this thread? 

It has to do with offering unsubstantiated claims and demanding they be accepted as fact - 'because reasons'

Part of the problem with getting good advice or information is most of the youtube heads are more concerned about gaining 2FPS on the latest game by over clocking or playing with CPU voltages which is of about zero interest to me. I won't go into the mega bs of liquid nitrogen cooling to get that either

[mnementh]

Oh sweet cheese and crackers...

It's like I'm the ONLY ONE in here who bothered to read the BOM and actually has a clue what is really needed to fulfill it, for Ifni's sake. 

You all are building a Dell corporate fleet machine in your head. bean needs a freaking content creation powerhouse CAPABLE of rendering 8K video, because he wants to be able to do 4K video in a reasonable amount of time under warehouse-workshop hostile environment conditions. VERY similar needs to a top-tier 144FPS+ gaming rig, only ALSO needing massive multi-thread processing and oodles of RAM, and the bandwidth to keep it all from gagging on that load.

smeesh. 

Though I WOULD recommend one thing for sure, my friend. Budget another $100-150 for a name-brand 120mm by 240mm AIO sealed liquid cooler. Even with the reduced 95W/105W TDP of the 3900X, the Wraith that comes in the box is gonna be howling like a freight train trying to keep your Zen3 cool at 40° ambient; no matter how big the box. 

mnem
 

[beanflying]

I was and am trying to avoid going down the water cooled path. With high ambient temperatures sealed ones in particular will lose some of the benefits I would think making high flow air closer to it? Normally I try and avoid working over 40C but we get maybe another 30 days over 30C to consider and sometimes you just need to get it done.

I am waiting on an active cooling setup to arrive to play with for my Laser cooling loop over Summer as the tubes lifespan goes up a lot if you can keep them cool. eBay auction: #223244931758 Not a 'real solution' for a PC IMO due to running costs but I did see some of the big guys are playing with peltier cooling.

As the bits come stock with Air I will go with it and if needed it can be revisited down the track.

[David Hess]

Wait long enough and Zen 2 will be out with apparently competitive single thread performance.  Even Linus, the other one, ate his words.

[mnementh]

No, no, no... modern cases put the radiator at the TOP of the box, pulling from the case and exiting upward so the CPU doesn't heat anything up. The MB & GPU actually run cooler, and the difference in the efficiency of the cooling of the CPU... it's really a no-brainer dude. I've been seeing AIO solutions in servers for years now, they're that reliable. I mean, yeah... if you started talking liquid-cooling on your MB and GPU, I'd say you were going the wrong direction for sure. But a good sealed AIO is reliable, it has PWM feedback just like a fan, and in most cases you're looking at a solid copper plate for thermal transfer.

This, BTW, is a Thermaltake V200 Mid-Tower case. It comes with 4 120mm fans and supports 120x240mm radiator in front or top (or BOTH, if you want to do a second AIO for your GPU  ); the other two came with this generic $60 AIO cooler I decided to take a chance on. I got my V200 because it was on sale for $60; if I had it to do again I'd probably go for a more expensive box with hinged front & sides so hot-swap HDD bays wouldn't have been such a pain in the tuchus to realize.

But as a functional case, thanks to the small amount of space taken up by the AIO pump there's just oodles of room and I have NO worries about it keeping cool, even with my house hitting 25° in the afternoon now. Idles at 35°, hits 40-45° according to my front-mounted thermometer. Internal monitoring indicates individual core temps sometimes as much as 7° warmer than it shows; it takes a minute or two for that thermo to catch up as it senses from direct contact with the side of the CPU lid. Very old-school; but I like having at least one hardware thermometer that MS Update or a hung CPU can't fuck up.

And before you say it... yes, I realize that means the radiator for the CPU sucks all the GPU & MB heat through it. Liquid-cooling is simply that much more effective that it doesn't matter; just like your car that cools the engine, transmission and even oil (and, in the case of a hybrid, also an electric motor & motor controller and battery) all the while sucking all the heat generated by your AC condenser through its radiator first.

mnem
 

[David Hess]

No, no, no... modern cases put the radiator at the TOP of the box, pulling from the case and exiting upward so the CPU doesn't heat anything up.

But how do I stack things on top of my computer case?