$1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?

[beanflying]

It has been a long long while since I built a PC from scratch (XP days) and have an ASUS I5 Laptop and a couple refurbished PC's without Graphics cards in use currently. I have got to a point where even rendering 1080P is a PITA and CAD models are bogging down and crashing Fusion 360 in some cases on the shack PC. I have avoided capturing 4K off my good drone due to this and is a big part of the upgrade reason. Game playing isn't really a consideration but some performance that way would be a bonus.

So time to spend some $ and build a new one but before I commit to hardware second and third opinions being sought. I have done about as much BS filtered youtube watching as I can handle but the following is what I have come up with for my circa $1-1.2k. You can stick your RGB lights for $ somewhere else too it's a working PC not a showbag

Ryzen 2700X (would consider the 2600X if others thought putting $ elsewhere is better as there is about a $90 differential)
32GB DDR4 3200 Ram (Corsair or Ripjaws or ?)
500 GB (Samsung Evo 970 plus?)
B450 Pro Wifi motherboard (seems to tick all the boxes now and upgrading later) https://www.gigabyte.com/au/Motherboard/B450-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#kf
H500 Cooler Master or similar case that is roomy and quiet
Power Supply 5-600W modular leads and quiet

Video cards is where I am getting most lost but an RX 580 8Gb but which brand and spec and should I look at secondhand? Should I look at GTX 1060 or 70's? With the other bits above there is $250-400 USD left to play with for this bit.

[Bicurico]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

[beanflying]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

Funny you should mention that option I was watching this only a few hours ago https://youtu.be/NT9Uj0sgLR4

I am in this case reluctant to buy yet another used  box that is already maxed out for any future upgrades. It may certainly suit others on a tighter budget. 

[sokoloff]

I just bought two used Dell 9020s, one for here and one for my dad. Dad got the small form factor; I got a mini-tower, because I wanted to get a half-decent graphics card. (I happened to pick an RX580 for a specific compatibility reason. Pick the video card that works well with the application you intend to use; any of them will work with games; sometimes productivity apps will work better with one brand or architecture vs another.)

You can get the very well constructed, few year old Dell (or HP) workstations stupid cheap and they are pretty upgradeable. Get one with an i7-4770 or so, put 32GB of RAM in, a small SSD, and a decent video card and you'll be around $550-650 all-in (at least in the US, where the market is thick with surplus and lease-return hardware).

If you're buying all the parts yourself, you're right to think hard and spend money on cooling and the power supply. I don't feel qualified to comment on the specifics of the latest Ryzen vs latest Intel, etc.

[olkipukki]

Ryzen 2700X (would consider the 2600X if others thought putting $ elsewhere is better as there is about a $90 differential)
32GB DDR4 3200 Ram (Corsair or Ripjaws or ?)
500 GB (Samsung Evo 970 plus?)
B450 Pro Wifi motherboard (seems to tick all the boxes now and upgrading later) https://www.gigabyte.com/au/Motherboard/B450-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#kf
H500 Cooler Master or similar case that is roomy and quiet
Power Supply 5-600W modular leads and quiet

Doesn't make much sense to do it right now if you are not in rush...

Just wait and see how much and how long to wait new Ryzen 7 3nnnX (about to release on 7th of July) will available in your country.

I would say very likely you will able to buy Ryzen 27xxx cheaper after 37xxx release and a mass adoption.

[wraper]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

I don't see value in that. Poor performance for what it is and power burner.

[David Hess]

Since your slowest applications make good use of multiple cores, I agree that the Ryzen 7 is your best choice.  I am considering a similar system to replace my Phenom 2 940 but will probably go with the more efficient but slower Ryzen 7 2700 which is 65 watts instead of the faster 2700X which is 105 watts.

[Mr. Scram]

The new Ryzen generation is about to be released and the performance increase should be notable. Even if you don't care about that there may be discounts on the outgoing generation.

[Bicurico]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

I don't see value in that. Poor performance for what it is and power burner.

OP wants a workstation for CAD (= typical single core application) and rendering (= typical multi core application).

Having a HP Z600 with 2x X5670 will give you 12 cores with HT = 24 logic cores. Ideal for rendering.

This will render faster than a current Core i7 CPU with 4 cores = 8 logic cores, even if they have faster clock and increased performance.

Note that some professional CAD software is not certified for non-Intel CPU's! And yes, some CAD/CAM/CAE applications will not work correctly on AMD processors.

I had issues with customers in the past, so I do stick with Intel processors. Preferrably Core i7. Even with Xeon processors there have been issues.

Same with graphics cards. The nvidia Quadro range is not faster than similar GTX cards - they are just certified for certain CAD/CAM applications. You pay this certification and the fact that the driver/card may unlock some special functionality, that only applies to a given CAD application.

If OP wants to do real professional work with commercial CAD/CAM applications, then he should by all means ask the software provider for the recommended workstation!

Failure in doing so will result in random crashes/freezes and/or lower than expected performance.

If OP wants to run open source, freeware or cracked CAD/CAM applications, then yes, he can try to build his own machine.

Regards,
Vitor

[wraper]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

I don't see value in that. Poor performance for what it is and power burner.

OP wants a workstation for CAD (= typical single core application) and rendering (= typical multi core application).

Having a HP Z600 with 2x X5670 will give you 12 cores with HT = 24 logic cores. Ideal for rendering.

This will render faster than a current Core i7 CPU with 4 cores = 8 logic cores, even if they have faster clock and increased performance.

It's slower than 8 core ryzen, eats more than 3x as much electricity and single core performance is important even for rendering. And if you want, you can even use ECC RAM on Ryzen given that you select motherboard that supports it. Not to say Ryzen 3000 series will be released in a week and apparently there is quite significant performance boost.

[wraper]

And yes, some CAD/CAM/CAE applications will not work correctly on AMD processors.

Examples please.

Same with graphics cards. The nvidia Quadro range is not faster than similar GTX cards - they are just certified for certain CAD/CAM applications. You pay this certification and the fact that the driver/card may unlock some special functionality, that only applies to a given CAD application.

Not the same at all. I'm not aware of any CAD that does not work or limits it's performance on non server CPU.

[mnementh]

Y'all know I just rebuilt my AM3 beast in a new case with a modern GPU... Well, that was in preparation for doing a complete update to modern hardware.  I wanted to break the pain up into manageable chunks. 

However my ensuing research showed me just how abysmally far behind the times my machine still is.  Which is to be expected; it's a 10 year old platform. With all I've done so far, it is barely an entry-level gaming rig, and render times are horrifying compared to modern hardware; just as you're finding now.

Don't get me wrong; with the additional $50 outlay for my current FX-8350 (4GHz\8-Core) processor, I DID achieve my modest objective of 1080P/60FPS on my STEAM flight sims while leveraging my investment in RAM and MB a little longer by pretty much maxing out my aging chipset. I don't regret a penny spent so far. 

All that said, I've determined that right now is the WORST possible time to be buying a new MB, especially AMD. The new 570x chipset MBs will be shipping in a few weeks, which will be the first pcie4.0 optimized AM4 boards. They will NOT support 1st Gen Ryzen, but are optimized for Zen2 architecture. On top of this, we don't know yet what families of RAM they will be optimized for. We expect faster DDR4, but possibly DDR5 on the horizon.

Along with this, I'm reading lots of press from chip manufacturers, indicating another quantum jump in RAM manufacturing process is about to go live due to simple turnover; new hardware, new processes being implemented just because the old machinery is outdated and worn out. I'm expecting RAM prices to drop like 2008 again; with 32/64GB Quad-channel builds becoming cheap as chips.

If you're NOT going Threadripper, then you want to wait for the 570x boards to come out so you know what RAM to buy. For a media-rendering build you for sure want the bandwidth of pcie4.0 and Zen2 family processors. But wait... Current market news indicates you're going to be looking at all of $40-60 more for all this quantum-leap in bandwidth, so older chipsets will be heavily deprecated quickly.

If you're looking for absolute best bang/buck, again I'd wait because the bottom is about to fall out from under the current 470/350 chipset boards, and especially 1st Gen Ryzen builds because no pcie4.0 and in some cases not even nvme. You'll be able to pick up current flagship MBs much cheaper and get into a lower level Zen2 CPU which will serve well for a few years, and still remain relevant with a later CPU upgrade. Don't look at ANY board without at least one, preferably 2 nvme capable slots and at least quad-channel 4 RAM slots, as you'll soon be able to double up whatever RAM you buy now for a song.

This is where I'm at right now... As much as I wanna see triple-digit framerates on my new 32in 1440P gaming monitor; I really think the best thing for me and you to do is wait a few months.

mnem
*sent by tickling my Android phone's most tender bits* (then edited for clarity here)

[wraper]

If you're NOT going Threadripper, then you want to wait for the 570x boards to come out so you know what RAM to buy.[/b][/i] For a media-rendering build you for sure want the bandwidth of pcie4.0 and Zen2 family processors. But wait... Current market news indicates you're going to be looking at all of $40-60 more for all this quantum-leap in bandwidth, so older chipsets will be heavily deprecated quickly.

They won't come with DDR5 for sure since there are no modules yet to begin with. It doesn't even need to be X570 since memory controller is built in into CPU. Motherboard specs are already available BTW https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570. Unless for extremely fast NVMe SSD, pcie4.0 has barely any advantage. But even current ones are extremely fast. So you need to do very specific tasks with top notch SSD to feel any difference.

quad-channel RAM, as you'll soon be able to double up whatever RAM you buy now for a song.

Quad channel RAM is only for threadripper. Usual Ryzen has 2 channels, don't confuse that with RAM slots.

[beanflying]

Seems a short delay until the new processors hit the market is warranted  Some of the bigger local suppliers are out of 26 and 2700X processors but unsure if that means sold out or they have run them out prior to the release of the new ones. 

The Motherboard I linked above looks like it will cope with some upcoming Ryzen processors and more memory so it is likely a safe thing should I decide I need a boost in a year or so. https://www.gigabyte.com/au/Motherboard/B450-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#support-cpu

Delaying indefinitely because new box/board/processor in coming is and will always be true but at some point you just need to bit the bullet and do it. 

[beanflying]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

I don't see value in that. Poor performance for what it is and power burner.

OP wants a workstation for CAD (= typical single core application) and rendering (= typical multi core application).

.....

Double checked and Fusion 360 uses as many cores as it can. 'Modern' CAD btw is certainly not a single core use case, load up a decent size model on an I3 or I5 and see my level of pain 

As to 'certified' GPU's it will be worth a look but I couldn't find anything specific. DaVinci Resolve compatibility/optimisation is more important in my case.

[wraper]

Delaying indefinitely because new box/board/processor in coming is and will always be true but at some point you just need to bit the bullet and do it. 

But buying one week before release of next generation (which on top of that offers huge performance boost) is not wise in any circumstances unless you need it today.

[olkipukki]

Double checked and Fusion 360 uses as many cores as it can. 'Modern' CAD btw is certainly not a single core use case, load up a decent size model on an I3 or I5 and see my level of pain 

It depends... 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-cpu-single-vs-multi-core-in-real-life-(no-games)-future/msg2043952/#msg2043952

As to 'certified' GPU's it will be worth a look but I couldn't find anything specific. DaVinci Resolve compatibility/optimisation is more important in my case.

I would say your above spec just around minimum if you are after 4K stuff in smooth and comfortable workflow; both Fusion and DaVince VRAM hunger...

AMD will release Navi GPU on same day as CPU, so you have another reason to wait 

[beanflying]

Interesting figures on Solidworks. I did some research on the Fusion forum and all the staff seem to say it helps. Still going to be a major step up from what I currently have to play with.

Going back to late last year a few of the Youtube video heads I have followed over time that seemed happy with the Ryzens on Adobe/DaVinci https://youtu.be/Tdoys_HDZYU and it's not what I do for $ it's what I do for fun.

More power More speed always but I have sort of set a budget - Subject to change 

[mnementh]

If you're NOT going Threadripper, then you want to wait for the 570x boards to come out so you know what RAM to buy.[/b][/i] For a media-rendering build you for sure want the bandwidth of pcie4.0 and Zen2 family processors. But wait... Current market news indicates you're going to be looking at all of $40-60 more for all this quantum-leap in bandwidth, so older chipsets will be heavily deprecated quickly.

They won't come with DDR5 for sure since there are no modules yet to begin with. It doesn't even need to be X570 since memory controller is built in into CPU. Motherboard specs are already available BTW https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570. Unless for extremely fast NVMe SSD, pcie4.0 has barely any advantage. But even current ones are extremely fast. So you need to do very specific tasks with top notch SSD to feel any difference.

quad-channel RAM, as you'll soon be able to double up whatever RAM you buy now for a song.

Quad channel RAM is only for threadripper. Usual Ryzen has 2 channels, don't confuse that with RAM slots.

You're absolutely correct on the Quad-channel architecture; that was a simple conflation error. I've just jumped back into it after almost a decade away, so lots and lots of new tech and terminology swirling around the old grey matter.

However, discussion I've read suggesting the possibility of DDR5 support says it would need power supply changes that current chipsets can't provide.

If AMD IS thinking that far ahead, there WILL have to be hardware support on the MB, even though the memory controllers are in the CPU.

Delaying indefinitely because new box/board/processor in coming is and will always be true but at some point you just need to bit the bullet and do it. 

But buying one week before release of next generation (which on top of that offers huge performance boost) is not wise in any circumstances unless you need it today.

Yeah; that is where I was going with my little dissertation.  We're on the cusp of not just an incremental update, but a generational one. This is NOT the time to be jumpy unless you have mission-critical downtime on the line, in which case you'd be buying a turnkey solution with "here yesterday" shipping. 

mnem
"Hasta Lasagna, Baybee!" ~ The Pastanator

[wraper]

However, discussion I've read suggesting the possibility of DDR5 support says it would need power supply changes that current chipsets can't provide.

RAM voltage has nothing to do with chipset.

[mnementh]

However, discussion I've read suggesting the possibility of DDR5 support says it would need power supply changes that current chipsets can't provide.

RAM voltage has nothing to do with chipset.

Oh FFS... the VRM ICs come in families just like the chipset. It IS part of the chipset specification. Now you're just picking nits.    What I've read indicates that DDR5 support will require lower voltages and even tighter ripple tolerances that the currently popular IC families just can't provide with any stability. There WILL have to be different hardware on the MB to even consider DDR5.

We DO know that AMD has been deeply involved with several major RAM manufacturers in developing this new release. That does lend some grain of credibility to the suggestion that DDR5 support is just around the corner as well.

mnem
 

[wraper]

However, discussion I've read suggesting the possibility of DDR5 support says it would need power supply changes that current chipsets can't provide.

RAM voltage has nothing to do with chipset.

Oh FFS... the VRM ICs come in families just like the chipset. It IS part of the chipset specification. Now you're just picking nits. 

Now you are inventing stuff. First of all, it's not like each generation of chipsets come with their own VRM controllers. Although CPU/SoC VRM controllers generally are compliant with Intel/AMD spec (often compatible to both) which changes from time to time. RAM VRM controller usually is a separate dumb chip like RT8120 which is quite typical for Ryzen boards. And even if what you said above was true, nothing prohibits configuring it with lower output voltage.

[tszaboo]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

I would go for a Z620 at least. With 2x4 cores. Or a Z420 with 6 cores. Clocks go higher, which matters, and the Z600 is getting old, reliability is questionable. The Z620 is about 5 years old, so leasing companies are duping it on ebay.

[mnementh]

Now you are inventing stuff. First of all, it's not like each generation of chipsets come with their own VRM controllers. Although CPU/SoC VRM controllers generally are compliant with Intel/AMD spec (often compatible to both) which changes from time to time. RAM VRM controller usually is a separate dumb chip like RT8120 which is quite typical for Ryzen boards. And even if what you said above was true, nothing prohibits configuring it with lower output voltage.

And? How does your diagram in any way negate what I just said? Or do you just HAVE to be right, so you just can't even consider the possibility?

mnem
 

[wraper]

Now you are inventing stuff. First of all, it's not like each generation of chipsets come with their own VRM controllers. Although CPU/SoC VRM controllers generally are compliant with Intel/AMD spec (often compatible to both) which changes from time to time. RAM VRM controller usually is a separate dumb chip like RT8120 which is quite typical for Ryzen boards. And even if what you said above was true, nothing prohibits configuring it with lower output voltage.

And? How does your diagram in any way negate what I just said? Or do you just HAVE to be right, so you just can't even consider the possibility?

mnem
 

It perfectly negates what you said that RAM voltage is chipset dependent because of "special kind" of VRM controllers  . Here is an example when it's just a dumb VRM. If motherboard has ability to change voltage, it just tinkers with feedback divider.