DEX eval by free_electron

[tggzzz]

All the internal math would done on the internal INTEGER units, to eliminate rounding errors and propagation of those errors.

That statement, taken in isolation and out of context, is of course unduly optimistic. Consider 10/3 + 10/3 +10/3 != 10

[Mechatrommer]

DEX uses floating point numbers with a range of ±1.5e-45 to ±3.4e38 inches.
1.5e-45 inch is somewhat smaller than any PCB tolerance.

sometime this type of idea creates more problem than "superioritiness"

All the internal math would done on the internal INTEGER units, to eliminate rounding errors and propagation of those errors.

That statement, taken in isolation and out of context, is of course unduly optimistic. Consider 10/3 + 10/3 +10/3 != 10

his details maybe lacking or incorrect i'm not sure, but what i'm sure there is "classic and practical case by case basis" solution to your posted problem.

[free_electron]

i was tinkering a bit more with DEX : the Placement point determines where the pick and place machine will pick the part. this is normally set to the centroid (gravitational center ) While you can move the point in DEX there is no easy way to do the following

- set it to center of part (gravitational point )
- set it to center of pin 1


you can only enter coordinates. it would be nice in the Placement point properties to have two buttons : set to center and Set to Pin 1

[c4757p]

DEX uses floating point numbers with a range of ±1.5e-45 to ±3.4e38 inches.
1.5e-45 inch is somewhat smaller than any PCB tolerance.

sometime this type of idea creates more problem than "superioritiness"

what?

[mswhin63]

DEX uses floating point numbers with a range of ±1.5e-45 to ±3.4e38 inches.
1.5e-45 inch is somewhat smaller than any PCB tolerance.

sometime this type of idea creates more problem than "superioritiness"

what?

sometimes!

[Iliya]

i was tinkering a bit more with DEX : the Placement point determines where the pick and place machine will pick the part. this is normally set to the centroid (gravitational center ) While you can move the point in DEX there is no easy way to do the following

- set it to center of part (gravitational point )
- set it to center of pin 1


you can only enter coordinates. it would be nice in the Placement point properties to have two buttons : set to center and Set to Pin 1

You can also drag it in the viewport.
It can snap to grid, snap to grid lines, grid points (Grid lines can be inclined).
It can also snap to objects, such as pad corners, pad centres and in your case the courtyard centre point or courtyard border edges or corners.

[free_electron]

yes, but that is not what i'm asking for. the gravitational point does not always coincide with the center of the courtyard.

here is an example : a connector like a DB9. part of that connector sticks out over the edge of the board. the courtyard only encompasses the area of the connector that falls ON the board. the silkscreen , or  a mechanical layer may have a drawing showing the real dimensions of the part. the gravitational center in this case is the center of the bounding box for ALL objects drawn.

in code :

for each object in the component ( where object is line, pad, whatever )
  if object.x < min_x then min_x = object.x
 if object.x > max_x then max_x = object.x
 if object.y < min_y then min_y = object.y
 if object.y > max_y then max_y = object.y
end for

grav.x = min_x +( (max_x - min_x)/2)
grav.y = min_y +(( max_y - min_y)/2)

That is what that button must do. becasue that is the center of the entire drawn structure.

[Iliya]

yes, but that is not what i'm asking for. the gravitational point does not always coincide with the center of the courtyard.

You have never submitted a wish-list (idea request). It’s in the help menu.

You stopped sending problem reports on the 29th. January. All your reports before that were resolved within 24 hours.

Your ‘reviews’ are very difficult to follow due to your poor command of the English language and mostly appear to be ‘finger’ trouble or lack of reading what’s in front of you e.g. the calculator - see previous postings.

Please use a spelling checker. Even the edit box on this forum shows you all your errors; the squiggly red lines underneath the misspelt text. Do you find the edit boxes difficult to use? It may help to add authority to your review rather than make people think you are uneducated.

[c4757p]

He's actively trying to give you helpful feedback, and you discard it because it's not typed into the right box (even though it still made its way to you) and he types with his feet. Meanwhile, the rest of us are making mental notes not to use your software lest something goes wrong and we end up having to communicate with its author.

[iampoor]

yes, but that is not what i'm asking for. the gravitational point does not always coincide with the center of the courtyard.

You have never submitted a wish-list (idea request). It’s in the help menu.

You stopped sending problem reports on the 29th. January. All your reports before that were resolved within 24 hours.

Your ‘reviews’ are very difficult to follow due to your poor command of the English language and mostly appear to be ‘finger’ trouble or lack of reading what’s in front of you e.g. the calculator - see previous postings.

Please use a spelling checker. Even the edit box on this forum shows you all your errors; the squiggly red lines underneath the misspelt text. Do you find the edit boxes difficult to use? It may help to add authority to your review rather than make people think you are uneducated.

If anything, free_electron looks like St. Christopher, and you look like an ass after reading this thread.

He is providing helpful feedback, your doing everything in your power to avoid it. Telling a (very) smart native ENglish speaker that their English is poor? Whats your problem?

Sorry, but I would never use your software after reading this thread. I bet most people would be in the same boat unless you really change your attitude.

[iampoor]

If you cant handle criticism/feedback, dont make software for engineers. 

[elgonzo]

Please use a spelling checker. Even the edit box on this forum shows you all your errors; the squiggly red lines underneath the misspelt text. Do you find the edit boxes difficult to use? It may help to add authority to your review rather than make people think you are uneducated.

Now you are bringing out the big guns, aren't you?  
I guess the lack of authority you are exhibiting with such a response is not helped by any spellchecker...

[elgonzo]

Telling a (very) smart native ENglish speaker that their English is poor? Whats your problem?

Nitpicking: free_electron is not a native, but long-time English speaker

[free_electron]

yes, but that is not what i'm asking for. the gravitational point does not always coincide with the center of the courtyard.

You have never submitted a wish-list (idea request). It’s in the help menu.

You stopped sending problem reports on the 29th. January. All your reports before that were resolved within 24 hours.

Your ‘reviews’ are very difficult to follow due to your poor command of the English language and mostly appear to be ‘finger’ trouble or lack of reading what’s in front of you e.g. the calculator - see previous postings.

Please use a spelling checker. Even the edit box on this forum shows you all your errors; the squiggly red lines underneath the misspelt text. Do you find the edit boxes difficult to use? It may help to add authority to your review rather than make people think you are uneducated.

squiggly lines don't work on an iPad. neither does the spell checker.
i have filed at least 8 bug reports yesterday evening. i do notice DEX takes a long time to send them but i do not get a report 'send failed' so i assume they went through. Maybe the firewall stops them. but then it would be reasonable to assume there would be a notification that sending failed ... send, confirm reception and notify user. standard practice ...

anyway you keep harping on about bug reports and wishlists. they are posted in detail in this topic , with the explanation of the how what and why they are needed. you have read them as you have commented on them. So what is holding you back ?

[KJDS]

I really wanted this to be good, and I'm sure it can be, and I am sure it will be if only Iliya would stop being bitchy about free_electron's typing skills.

He's provided some amazing feedback of things that NEED to be improved, crucial for me is the ability to manually tweak the solder mask. Until that's fixed it's not worth my while doing anything with this.

[nctnico]

He's provided some amazing feedback of things that NEED to be improved, crucial for me is the ability to manually tweak the solder mask.

It wouldn't surprise me if that is possible already but FE just didn't figure out how. Other people seem to have far less problems using DEX than him.

[jd]

Very interesting thread...

Ilya, your software is very interesting and looks to be an awesome achievement especially for one guys work. The videos you just did are good too.

Please try to take on board the issues that free_electron is pointing out. Some of it is just things he missed the first time around, but many are genuine and important. And they are not unique to DEX either by the way! For example KiCad could do with some of these usability improvements too.

I have designed PCBs in my job for 20 years, but it is only a small part of it so I am not quite at free_electrons level. But I can recognise the real deal when I see it, he is giving you invaluable advice if you can but see it...

[Iliya]

I really wanted this to be good, and I'm sure it can be, and I am sure it will be if only Iliya would stop being bitchy about free_electron's typing skills.

He's provided some amazing feedback of things that NEED to be improved, crucial for me is the ability to manually tweak the solder mask. Until that's fixed it's not worth my while doing anything with this.

See attached.

This is far more than tweaking.

[Iliya]

I really wanted this to be good, and I'm sure it can be, and I am sure it will be if only Iliya would stop being bitchy about free_electron's typing skills.

He's provided some amazing feedback of things that NEED to be improved, crucial for me is the ability to manually tweak the solder mask. Until that's fixed it's not worth my while doing anything with this.

I don't care if i is written with capital or not. I'm not that blase (french word look it up) and if the spell checker on the iphone can't pick it up so be it.

Were you not taught it in school.

The Importance of Grammar and Spelling

http://kevinjbrowne.weebly.com/grammar-and-spelling.html


The major problem with poor grammar and spelling is the impression it creates for the reader of your document. Consider the following real example:

"Mr. Browne i was e mailing you to see if there is anyway you can let me into ur class. Im going into teaching and this will eb my last semister and i need this class if it aint to much to ask can u let me in the class thanks."

Here this student is requesting entry into my class. Look at the number of misspelled words and the poor grammar (including the use of "aint") in this short note. Do you think I allowed this student to enroll in my class? No!

No one is going to take you seriously if you don't take the time to proofread your document. It's no good saying that you simply write like you talk. This is simply unacceptable. What poor grammar and spelling indicates is one of two things. 1. You're not intelligent enough to write any better. 2. You don't care enough to write any better. Either impression is negative.

I don't care if i is written with capital or not. I'm not that blase (french word look it up) and if the spell checker on the iphone can't pick it up so be it.

Just checked both my iPad and my Samsung S3.

I don't care if i is..

is auto-converted to

I don't care if I is...

I did not need to use a spell checker.

Note the capital I. It appears you don't even know how to use a phone. How can you be trusted with reviewing software. No wonder you are so confused. 
As for giving me advice, I'll pass on that one.

No one is going to take you seriously if you don't take the time to proofread your document. It's no good saying that you simply write like you talk. This is simply unacceptable. What poor grammar and spelling indicates is one of two things. 1. You're not intelligent enough to write any better. 2. You don't care enough to write any better. Either impression is negative. 

I'm done with you. Enough is enough. 

Sadly he has NOT submitted any problem reports. I find his posting difficult and very unprofessional and he attracts a few Trolls. There are only a few, but life is too short! I will fix any issues but he is not helping at all.

[free_electron]

I really wanted this to be good, and I'm sure it can be, and I am sure it will be if only Iliya would stop being bitchy about free_electron's typing skills.

He's provided some amazing feedback of things that NEED to be improved, crucial for me is the ability to manually tweak the solder mask. Until that's fixed it's not worth my while doing anything with this.

See attached.

This is far more than tweaking.

I will check that out tonight. Remember i am trying to do this in the footprint editor. Not the pcb editor . Don't know if it makes a difference.
I could not see a soldermask layer in the layerstack inside the footprint editor.
All i found is an entry field that seems to set a global soldermask expansion. I need to be able to set expansion per pad. The mask rules need to be tied to individual pads. For a single footprint some pads may need larger opening than others. All i found is an entry field that changes all of em. And that is insufficient.

I have written a bunch of bug reports. When i click send it takes like ten seconds and then the bug report window closes. There is no notification anything is wrong nor a confirmation they were received. I can't help it if they  don't leave and dex doesnt tell me if it has trouble sending. Nothing i can do about that, that's your end of the stick: you wrote the code, i expect it checks for succesfull delivery. If not : bad programming on your end. Dex doesnt tell me whether it went through or not.

As for comments that are hard to follow : they are screen captures . How much more clear do you need it to be. You even see my mouse movement. You see where i click and what i do and how dex responds. And you have a written script including time markers. It does not get any clearer than that. Do you need me to sit next to you and show you ?

I dont understand why you only seem to be able to fix a bug if it is reported through the bug reporting tool. Even if i wrote a letter to you you should be able to fix it.

The videos clearly show step by step what i do and when problems occur.

I am growing tired of this. Its like herding a blob of jello...

[Gixy]

From his last post he seems to be a teacher. This could explain:
1) the amount of free time he has to produce software
2) how reluctant he is to accept criticism: how somebody who is supposed to teach could be wrong?

I'm impressed by the very constructive attitude of Vincent (free-electron) facing with such a lack of respect.

[ozwolf]

I say let's not get too partisan here. Iliya has done a remarkable job from what I can gather and being confronted with expert criticism from free_electron presented with absolutely no sugar coating is not going to be easy to stomach. That's just human nature.

Likewise I seriously doubt f_e would even bother putting the time in that he has done if he thought the product couldn't be improved as a result.

I give them both  and hope they part on friendly terms at the end of it without too much loss of blood.

+1

One of the reasons I decided to purchase a DEX license (even though I'm a hobbyist and don't expect to ever be commercial) is that there are very few software packages that do all that DEX does, at that cost, and each user has the ability to communicate with the developer directly.

While you may argue that a one man band can be a risk, I counter that he only has to answer to himself and his customers, no excess upper management to answer to.  I'm a one man band myself in the finance industry, and I'm often able to respond and out manoeuvre larger competitors and even the banks themselves.  It's just a PITA when I want some time off for myself or my family.  Take Dave J. for example, how much would he get done if he had to have each video reviewed for management approval prior to release.  Doesn't bear thinking about it!!

As for the heated discussions between free_electron and Ilya, they're both passionate about their interests and obviously very good at what they do.  I've seen this before in a previous career as a service engineer on mass spectrometers.  Brilliant people can be very emotional about their projects, but when challenged (via peer review) they will often produce amazing results.  I encourage and hope they both have the maturity to see this through as engineers/designers and not as emotional teenagers.

The heated discussions often teach me stuff that I never knew, and wouldn't normally be exposed to.  I couldn't guess how many times I've fired up Google to learn more about something discussed/argued/debated about on this and other EEVblog threads.  Thanks to all and specifically Dave J. for EEVblog, Ilya for DEX, and free_electron sharing their knowledge and experience.

Ozwolf

[zapta]

I give them both  and hope they part on friendly terms at the end of it without too much loss of blood.

That's the problem with the internet. In the real world they would discuss it over beer and ending up buddies.

[Mechatrommer]

I give them both  and hope they part on friendly terms at the end of it without too much loss of blood.

That's the problem with the internet. In the real world they would discuss it over beer and ending up buddies.

not entirely... 1 or 2 of my buddies are this "conservative" type no matter what rational you give they'll find excuses to defend themselves, its us who usually retreat or STFU to stop the flame.

[zapta]

not entirely... 1 or 2 of my buddies are this "conservative" type no matter what rational you give they'll find excuses to defend themselves, its us who usually retreat or STFU to stop the flame.

I have conservative friends and the are great awesome.