DEX eval by free_electron

[Iliya]

A beautiful example of why attempting to blindly autoplace and autoroute a complex board is a ridiculous idea..

Another example of pure negative feedback

Did you not see this...

Quick route with Electra.  Did it this afternoon.
Not finished yet...

Can you please make your project available so we can learn by your fine example?

Thanks

[Iliya]

Still waiting for DEX eval by free_electron. That is the title of this topic.

[Monkeh]

A beautiful example of why attempting to blindly autoplace and autoroute a complex board is a ridiculous idea..

Another example of pure negative feedback

Did you not see this...

Quick route with Electra.  Did it this afternoon.
Not finished yet...

Yes, I saw that, and I don't see how it's relevant. It's certainly not finished, it's not even started. Importing a schematic and clicking the autoroute button does not make for a demonstration of a useful piece of software!

Can you please make your project available so we can learn by your fine example?

It's not finished and ready for show, which is why it.. isn't on show. Take a look at the layout which came with the schematic you imported.

[Iliya]

A beautiful example of why attempting to blindly autoplace and autoroute a complex board is a ridiculous idea..

Another example of pure negative feedback

Did you not see this...

Quick route with Electra.  Did it this afternoon.
Not finished yet...

Yes, I saw that, and I don't see how it's relevant. It's certainly not finished, it's not even started. Importing a schematic and clicking the autoroute button does not make for a demonstration of a useful piece of software!

Can you please make your project available so we can learn by your fine example?

It's not finished and ready for show, which is why it.. isn't on show. Take a look at the layout which came with the schematic you imported.

It's not finished and ready for show, which is why it.. isn't on show. Take a look at the layout which came with the schematic you imported.
[/quote]

I did NOT import it. I created the schematics and parts direct from datasheet and the TI pdf.
As for not even started then what is in the screenshots?
 
Why are you in Troll mode? 

Somehow I doubt you have even started your design, will it ever appear?

[Monkeh]

I did NOT import it. I created the schematics and parts direct from datasheet and the TI pdf.

Okay, so you copied it.

As for not even started then what is in the screenshots?

An imperfect copy of a schematic and an autoplaced and autorouted board layout which can't work?
 

Somehow I doubt you have even started your design, will it ever appear?

Okay, let's put up one I've made (An FTDI board, and an adapter to go with it), one I'm working on (an FTDI cable), and a nearly finished prototype related to the previously mentioned project.

Are you done attacking those trying to help you, now?

[tautech]

Okay, let's put up one I've made (An FTDI board, and an adapter to go with it), one I'm working on (an FTDI cable), and a nearly finished prototype related to the previously mentioned project.

Are you done attacking those trying to help you, now?

Nice. 
Bet those didn't happen in an afternoon. 

[Iliya]

I did NOT import it. I created the schematics and parts direct from datasheet and the TI pdf.

Okay, so you copied it.

As for not even started then what is in the screenshots?

An imperfect copy of a schematic and an autoplaced and autorouted board layout which can't work?
 

Somehow I doubt you have even started your design, will it ever appear?

Okay, let's put up one I've made (An FTDI board, and an adapter to go with it), one I'm working on (an FTDI cable), and a nearly finished prototype related to the previously mentioned project.

Are you done attacking those trying to help you, now?

What part of not finished do you not understand?
I am not attacking you, it is really the other way round.

Are these the complex six layer boards with dual row QFNs and controlled impedance that were were talking about?

I look forward to seeing the schematics so I can show you how to do it in AutoTRAX.
The schematics must be done otherwise you would not have gone to all that effort laying out and routing the boards. I did mine quick by locking a couple of parts in place and runnig autolayout and autoroute. This took me < 1 minute.
So if you can make the schematics available I take a look, copy them into DEX and get back to you tomorrow afternoon. Can't do it in the morning, I'm off out on the bike.
I don't want the PCBs, I will do them myself so we can compare.

[Iliya]

I look forward to seeing the schematics so I can show you how to do it in AutoTRAX.
The schematics must be done otherwise you would not have gone to all that effort laying out and routing the boards. I did mine quick by locking a couple of parts in place and runnig autolayout and autoroute. This took me < 1 minute.
So if you can make the schematics available I take a look, copy them into DEX and get back to you tomorrow afternoon. Can't do it in the morning, I'm off out on the bike.
I don't want the PCBs, I will do them myself so we can compare.

A PDF of the schematics would be fine. Looking foward 

[Monkeh]

Are these the complex six layer boards with dual row QFNs and controlled impedance that were were talking about?

You haven't read my posts at all, have you? Controlled impedance, yes, dual row QFN was an example. Four layers are blatantly visible on the hub layout.

I look forward to seeing the schematics so I can show you how to do it in AutoTRAX.
The schematics must be done otherwise you would not have gone to all that effort laying out and routing the boards.

Some of them are, some of them aren't. You don't have to finish one to begin work on the other. I don't particularly feel like giving you a schematic to partially copy (there are things you can't see in an image.. how do you do differential pairs in DEX, again? It's not in the manual!), nor do I honestly want to publish any of those in their present state. Perhaps I'll try and clean the hub up so it's not embarrassing.

I did mine quick by locking a couple of parts in place and runnig autolayout and autoroute. This took me < 1 minute.

Which completely defeats the purpose as the result has no relevance. It is totally non-functional and looks nothing like a working layout.

So if you can make the schematics available I take a look, copy them into DEX and get back to you tomorrow afternoon. Can't do it in the morning, I'm off out on the bike.
I don't want the PCBs, I will do them myself so we can compare.

Just carry on with making a reasonable layout of that dongle. I look forward to seeing something actually laid out instead of spewed randomly.

[c4757p]

For those who don't get it, the point of going to the effort of doing a complex layout by hand isn't to show the capability - really, you don't need much, I've done rather complex layouts in bloody KiCad which is barely a step above a drawing tool - it's to show that it's usable enough to slog through the layout without becoming suicidal or homicidal.

Autorouted layouts don't do that.

So far, just about everybody seems to be shying away from the effort required in using this software to produce something a real engineer would admit to.

[Iliya]

Are these the complex six layer boards with dual row QFNs and controlled impedance that were were talking about?

You haven't read my posts at all, have you? Controlled impedance, yes, dual row QFN was an example. Four layers are blatantly visible on the hub layout.

I look forward to seeing the schematics so I can show you how to do it in AutoTRAX.
The schematics must be done otherwise you would not have gone to all that effort laying out and routing the boards.

Some of them are, some of them aren't. You don't have to finish one to begin work on the other. I don't particularly feel like giving you a schematic to partially copy (there are things you can't see in an image.. how do you do differential pairs in DEX, again? It's not in the manual!), nor do I honestly want to publish any of those in their present state. Perhaps I'll try and clean the hub up so it's not embarrassing.

I did mine quick by locking a couple of parts in place and runnig autolayout and autoroute. This took me < 1 minute.

Which completely defeats the purpose as the result has no relevance. It is totally non-functional and looks nothing like a working layout.

So if you can make the schematics available I take a look, copy them into DEX and get back to you tomorrow afternoon. Can't do it in the morning, I'm off out on the bike.
I don't want the PCBs, I will do them myself so we can compare.

Just carry on with making a reasonable layout of that dongle. I look forward to seeing something actually laid out instead of spewed randomly.

I'm a bit perplexed. Are you saying yours are not finished? And you criticised my work for not even being started!

Look, Iv’e showed you mine so let’s take a peep at yours.

PDF is great, no bitmap thanks. I assume Altium can output your design as a PDF.

Differential pairs, looks like an easy one to do. Eay maths. I’ll implement it in DEX while I doing your boards for you. Will also do the dual row quads for you.
Will also bang your PCBs through Electra 3. It does Automatic Differential pairs routing and send you the result.

http://konekt.com/c5/index.php

[Monkeh]

Look, Iv’e showed you mine so let’s take a peep at yours.

You've shown me nothing but a copy of someone else's schematic..

PDF is great, no bitmap thanks. I assume Altium can output your design as a PDF.

Who said anything about Altium?

Differential pairs, looks like an easy one to do. Eay maths. I’ll implement it in DEX while I doing your boards for you.

Aha, so we've discovered something: No support for differential pairs. Not surprising.. Don't do it for me, though. Do it for yourself. This is your product you need to sell.

Will also bang your PCBs through Electra 3. It does Automatic Differential pairs routing and send you the result.

http://konekt.com/c5/index.php

So you'll put it through a €495+ tool to demonstrate.. what?

[Iliya]

For those who don't get it, the point of going to the effort of doing a complex layout by hand isn't to show the capability - really, you don't need much, I've done rather complex layouts in bloody KiCad which is barely a step above a drawing tool - it's to show that it's usable enough to slog through the layout without becoming suicidal or homicidal.

Autorouted layouts don't do that.

So far, just about everybody seems to be shying away from the effort required in using this software to produce something a real engineer would admit to.

You forgot free_electron. I'm sure he is beavering away. He surely won't come back after over a week of silence and say he's given up. This is his topic after all.
You could always give it a bash yourself.
I'm not a PCB designer but I can quickly create a PCB complete with hierarchical schematics and new parts in a few hours.  Have you looked at the videos?

It must be warm, the Trolls are flocking are something to that effect.

[Iliya]

Look, Iv’e showed you mine so let’s take a peep at yours.

You've shown me nothing but a copy of someone else's schematic..

PDF is great, no bitmap thanks. I assume Altium can output your design as a PDF.

Who said anything about Altium?

Differential pairs, looks like an easy one to do. Eay maths. I’ll implement it in DEX while I doing your boards for you.

Aha, so we've discovered something: No support for differential pairs. Not surprising.. Don't do it for me, though. Do it for yourself. This is your product you need to sell.

Will also bang your PCBs through Electra 3. It does Automatic Differential pairs routing and send you the result.

http://konekt.com/c5/index.php

So you'll put it through a €495+ tool to demonstrate.. what?

Can't see the use of differential pairs on any of your boards. Where are they. Please use Snagit to mark them so we can see.
Will do the differential pairs, as I said, no big deal.

See attached. I'm most of the way there, will also give you timings.

So if you do not use Altium, then which program do you use? Please educate us. Thanks.

[Monkeh]

Can't see the use of differential pairs on any of your boards. Where are they. Please up Snagit to mark them so we can see.

Three of those boards are USB. Just look for the USB pairs. The clue is in the name.

Will do the differential pairs, as I said, no big deal.

See attached. I'm most of the way there, will also give you timings.

Okay. I'm not seeing the option to define a pair (or more) and control the trace width and spacing in there for routing the pair.

So if you do not use Altium, the which program do you use. Educate us. Thanks.

I use Eagle. It has many flaws, but it's still quite capable of serious layouts with a bit of work.

[Iliya]

Can't see the use of differential pairs on any of your boards. Where are they. Please up Snagit to mark them so we can see.

Three of those boards are USB. Just look for the USB pairs. The clue is in the name.

Will do the differential pairs, as I said, no big deal.

See attached. I'm most of the way there, will also give you timings.

Okay. I'm not seeing the option to define a pair (or more) and control the trace width and spacing in there for routing the pair.

So if you do not use Altium, the which program do you use. Educate us. Thanks.

I use Eagle. It has many flaws, but it's still quite capable of serious layouts with a bit of work.

See attached, is this it? You could do that manually without all the fuss. It's only 2 short symmetric tracks. No big deal.Takes less than 30 seconds in DEX.

[Monkeh]

See attached, is this it? You could do that manually without all the fuss. It's only 2 short symmetric tracks. No big deal.Takes less than 30 seconds in DEX.

Yes, pick the smallest example out of my small examples and use it to dismiss the idea.

[c4757p]

Iliya, the idea isn't that you can route two traces, the idea is that the software will route them together as a pair, maintaining a specified spacing the whole way.

[c4757p]

I see "Max Positive Voltage" and "Max Negative Voltage" in one of your screenshots. Does that mean I can actually specify a voltage per net and have it maintain a greater clearance between 0 and 200V than between 100V and 200V?

That would be nice.

[free_electron]

For those who don't get it, the point of going to the effort of doing a complex layout by hand isn't to show the capability - really, you don't need much, I've done rather complex layouts in bloody KiCad which is barely a step above a drawing tool - it's to show that it's usable enough to slog through the layout without becoming suicidal or homicidal.

Autorouted layouts don't do that.

So far, just about everybody seems to be shying away from the effort required in using this software to produce something a real engineer would admit to.

You forgot free_electron. I'm sure he is beavering away. He surely won't come back after over a week of silence and say he's given up. This is his topic after all.
You could always give it a bash yourself.
I'm not a PCB designer but I can quickly create a PCB complete with hierarchical schematics and new parts in a few hours.  Have you looked at the videos?

It must be warm, the Trolls are flocking are something to that effect.

Been too busy with real work the last week. I need to watch your new videos first. Will try to do that today.  Last time i was trying with dex i was stuck trying to make schematic symbols and pcb footprints. Ran i to all kinds of strange behavioor like not being able to select a rectangle or a pad depending on order they were initially drawn.  I need to install a screen recording program so people can follow along and see what i am doing , what i am expecting and where the problems are.

[rsjsouza]

I need to install a screen recording program

Use Screenpresso. It is great not only to capture screens, but also to highlight and circle things in a screenshot.

[mswhin63]

For Monkey, Jeez, do you not understand DEX is a PCB Schematic software developer and is not trying to demonstrate what is suppose to be your skills in PCB design. Let him get on with designing and improving the software and you get on with techniques you learn in university.

This video suits you to a tee, showed it before but it seems that Monkey/h may not have seen it.

[Monkeh]

For Monkey, Jeez, do you not understand DEX is a PCB Schematic software developer and is not trying to demonstrate what is suppose to be your skills in PCB design. Let him get on with designing and improving the software and you get on with techniques you learn in university.

The software needs to demonstrate the capability to do the job. So far, examples have been: One small PIC32 breakout, which was quite neatly done, but exceedingly basic. One awful autorouted through-hole Arduino clone. One auto-placed and auto-routed RF module which cannot possibly work. None of which is a good advertisement.

I am trying to help him improve the software. Up until now it's had no concept of differential pairs. What does this tell you?

[mswhin63]

For Monkey, Jeez, do you not understand DEX is a PCB Schematic software developer and is not trying to demonstrate what is suppose to be your skills in PCB design. Let him get on with designing and improving the software and you get on with techniques you learn in university.

The software needs to demonstrate the capability to do the job. So far, examples have been: One small PIC32 breakout, which was quite neatly done, but exceedingly basic. One awful autorouted through-hole Arduino clone. One auto-placed and auto-routed RF module which cannot possibly work. None of which is a good advertisement.

I am trying to help him improve the software. Up until now it's had no concept of differential pairs. What does this tell you?

Yes, pick the smallest example out of my small examples and use it to dismiss the idea.

I see aggressive overtones. The point is you are looking for a complex board, if the program can make the changes then it can. Like at the beginning free_electron started the same way as you have and now the tone is changing because he probably understand that it take time to make changes if required.

Notably it takes time to learn the intricacies of software. I do not think all PCB software runs the same so each one will take time to adapt. If you do not have the patience to learn the subtle or major difference in software don't use it. I am not an advanced PCB designer so i can't advise on the more complex solutions in 5 minutes but I can sure comment on how the software is able to create tracks, modify tracks etc. Most people do not like using Auto Route features Iliya doesn't really have to time to create a PCB unless it shows various features that people like yourself need to learn to apply to your more complex circuit.

If you can't create a complex circuit in 5 minutes, don't expect DEX to do the same. Understand this is one person that is putting together a fantastic software package that has free content without too many restriction.

Finally I am an RF technician back at Uni to get my degree in RF design. That is not an easy subject to learn as well. So do not expect everyone including software developers to understand the finer details of RF design, that is your job.

Also watch the video.

Remember this is a free software too! Jeez

[Monkeh]

I see aggressive overtones.

You see frustration.

If you can't create a complex circuit in 5 minutes, don't expect DEX to do the same.

I don't. I started out simply asking him if he could show any examples of more than a seven component design..

Also watch the video.

Hmm.. no.

Remember this is a free software too! Jeez

I don't see what that has to do with it. He's trying to sell a tool for a job, and I'm actually trying to help him do so.