DEX eval by free_electron

[jaxbird]

I've experienced plenty of both. Sure the 'B' requires more thoughtful management, but the end result is usually better because B wants to be the best in the team, s/he is usually craving for praise and acknowledgement so any encouragement works well for motivation.

No. If this person has is easily "highly offended" by criticism, then people will slowly just stop working with that guy because he is a pain in the ass. Eventually, the guy just works on its own because really nobody wants to interact with someone who is constantly offended. Sure, he still might crave for praise, but that guy is essentially not productive anymore and makes the rest of the workforce in the team miserable.
Note, do not confuse being offended by criticism with having pride in ones own work.

As I said A and B are exaggerated, so let's say somewhat offended and somewhat devastated by criticism. How is that a pain in the ass? s/he will just want to do it better next time, do his/her best to fix the issues and make sure it never happens again.

That is my experience with B.

Anyway, sorry to free_electron, not my intention to hijack this thread, so let's leave this here and if anyone wants to discuss further, feel free to create a new thread in general chat and we can discuss details.

Cheers

[elgonzo]

Ok, we are getting off topic.

No derailing please, it's an interesting evaluation.
And yes, i'm guilty for falling into it and replying.

Agreed, i am guilty as well. My apologies.
free_electron, back to you...

FYI: I decided to remove my off-topic posts here to remove my clutter. Doesn't mean i want to hide something. Just wrong thread to discuss hiring choice, and certainly neither welcomed by both Vincent and Iliya.

[zapta]

Think about hiring and choosing between two persons with equal qualifications:

A: I just work here, I don't give a shit
B: I'm highly offended you criticize my work, I put my life and soul into that.

Personally I'd pick B.

I will pick the one that doesn't derail threads.

[monksod]

As a "silent observer" and a noob who is just starting my adventures into PCB design, I gave DEX a quick look. Component libraries should have a "+" next to them to indicate they are expandable. I didn't understand the symbols under electrolytics? Is that a graphical mistake? I know the auto-wiring has already been mentioned, this just didn't work for me, it seemed to have a mind of its own, I had no control over it? How do I get rid of the default "example" circuits? Plus generally a bit slow (then again, my system is old, and other apps like Fritzing & DIYLC drag also... then again Diptrace seems to work nice & slick?)... I think if/when these immediate user bugs can be ironed out, it will be a very good program!

[aroby]

@free_electron and others - regarding drawing shapes on the footprints and schematics, there seems to be a pretty decent set of functionality for that.  I was easily able to draw a triangle for an opamp, for example.

If you edit a part in Part Builder, the main canvas shows two tabs - Symbol and Footprint.  On the ribbon menu, depending on which tab has focus, there is a Symbol ribbon and a Footprint ribbon.  Both of those have Shapes.  The polygon shapes were straightforward to use to create a triangle.

Also there was some commentary about units earlier.  These seem to be able to be set in a number of places, although the behavior isn't what you'd expect.  For example, you can go to the Tool ribbon and there are units there.  With Parts Builder open, you can switch between Imperial and Metric and the values in Parts Builder change.  What is unexpected is that switching from, say, mm to inches with Metric selected, (a) doesn't switch from Metric to Imperial and (b) only affects the grid and not the values in Part Builder - probably a bug.  Similarly, on the title bar of the main window there are mm, cm and ins buttons, but again they seem only to affect the grid, not the values that are currently displayed.

I saw Iliya posted a way to turn off autowire / autoroute.  There is a global setting for that in the Settings panel under the All Schematics tab and the Wires category.

Maybe you've found all of this already - it seems that the UI is a bit like re-learning Microsoft Office when they switched to the ribbon menu.  I've never used Altium and only briefly tried Eagle, which I gave up on after experiencing many of the same frustrations you've been having with AutoTRAX.  So far, I've been able to figure this software out, albeit with some of the odd UI behaviors.

Hope this helps

Anthony

[Mechatrommer]

There is a global setting for that in the Settings panel under the All Schematics tab and the Wires category.
Maybe you've found all of this already - it seems that the UI is a bit like re-learning Microsoft Office when they switched to the ribbon menu.

this is exactly what i'm looking for! and yeah i tried to re-learn the ms office ribbon experience now. and blimey after all these years of using new ms office 2000+, i still struggle back and forth to find a button in ribbons. i still miss office97! but i cant since my dept usually post new doc format that office97 cant read anymore.

it seems to really know this sw is either:
1) navigate ALL the ribbon buttons, look closely, click ALL to see what they do each.
2) someone to tell where should i go in every step i want
i'm trying hard on (1) and then i hope the shortcut with (2) which the creator (and his videos) failed to provide, maybe due to blinded by his own ego. now i can do 45 degrees snap the way i want, with "MOVE PARALLEL" set to true, thats the term! but still there is still some angle oddness and track criss crossing when trying to move vertex in each existing segment track. as we've said, there is hope to this sw but the creator made it hard for us to reach it.

ps: i think the creator should appoint people like aroby to be his support dept and award the free lifetime commercial licence

[aroby]

You can also switch the menus into classic mode, but in the brief experiment I did with that, I found that there was a lot of showing and hiding of toolbars that made the UI jump around a lot.  However, the classic mode does make it easier to see all of the menu functionality. 

If you're looking for keyboard shortcuts, hover your mouse over the menus and press and hold ALT.  They are all displayed, although they maybe tough to remember.

To date, I've found Iliya to be very responsive to feedback reports.

[Mechatrommer]

A: I just work here, I don't give a shit
B: I'm highly offended you criticize my work, I put my life and soul into that.

A and B can be the same person, only A is when he just got the work. few months/years later, he will become B, and if you further criticize he will become...

C: I'm highly offended you criticize my work, I put my life and soul into that. I don't give a shit, i have an PhD.

[mswhin63]

I had a good night sleep so my thoughts are bit more tame. free_electron you mentioned that you have reported on other software performances. Do you links available?

I don't think you are a bad PCB designer but I do believe that your evaluation is not very professional.

i am getting frustrated with this thing...

I would assume that you have done more professional evaluation in the past and would regret that you have not been able to give this software the same due respect. Evaluations I have done in the past have always consulted with the developer if issues are found to look at resolution before creating a slanging match.
You are not Dave, he is a professional entertainer now, I wouldn't expect you to follow in the same footsteps.

I think Iliya has not have any full professional evaluation done but instead has worked on this software over time resulting in user feedback.

[free_electron]

I had a good night sleep so my thoughts are bit more tame. free_electron you mentioned that you have reported on other software performances. Do you links available?

no links . all that stuff happened in a professional setting and were multi day evaluations with multiple people. we all reported what we liked and disliked , many times the manufacturer of the programs were involved. some software testing was under NDA so i cannot tell you what it is , although it is out there . i have been, and am, beta tester for a couple of commercial programs where i provide feedback on the problems encountered. Some of that software i use daily , or used to use daily.

This is not so much an evaluation, it is a log recorded while trying to create a schematic and board with this program. As i am exploring the program i am running into problems. some are because i don't know how it works, some are because the documentation is flawed, some are plain bugs, some are oversights, shortcomings whatever.

i am reporting them as i encounter them. i just shot a 46 minute video that goes over me starting the program looking around in the libraries , messing a bit with the sample schematic , looking around in the library and finalizing by creating a blank sheet and simply drawing a couple of rectangles , changing their color , line thickness, rotating , scaling and moving them.

all pretty basic stuff. you'd think ...  the number of idiosynchraties and bugs is unbelievable. and then there is the shortcomings. those are rally basic things that ANY vector drawing program can do but for some reason DEX doesn't.
Why can not show me , when i move a placed part where the x and y coordinates are ? because a tool panel is overlaid on the toolbar. that is clearly a bug. THe code that handles the docking of the panels doesn't take into account that there is a toolbar at the bottom. it just plasters it right over the toolbar. that is not even a code problem. that is a problem with setting an anchor point for a docked window . in visual studio you just have to specify the dockstyle and anchors. they are simply set wrong. it;s not a 'huge' bug in the programatical sense but it is very annying , as a user to have part of the toolbar covered by a docked window.

it starts out great. pick hollow rectangle. you immediateley see where you are with a nicely made x and y display dangling form the mouse. then you start drawing and you get this really cool x and y size display. fantastic !

then you want to move the object. no x y display. want to size it ? no size display. want to rotate it ? no angle display. nothing. you can't even change the line width after it is placed.
you select a fill color  , and draw a box : the box is empty , not filled. you set an edge widh and draw a box . i explicitly selected a hollow rectangle( not a rounded rectangle ) yet it shows up as a rounded rectangle. and the line width i selected ? at least off by 10% the grid is set to 1 inch . the width of the rectangle to 1 inch. it's like 0.92 inch wide... you can clearly see it does not fit the grid.

The program really feels like : you can draw something , but you cannot edit it. editing is like an afterthought. The way this works is : if you have  not gotten it the way you want it :  you should delete and redraw. It is very strange.

it is difficult to convey in words. that is why i filmed it so you can see what i am doing and how the program reacts. i can't make heads nor tails of it. and this is just drawing and manipulating a simple rectangle.

Think about this one : This program has a button to randomly , RANDOMLY ! connect placed components with wires. Yes, you read that right: it just wires up the parts you placed arbitrarily.... ( it actually states in the help manual that it look cool ) ...

What purpose does that serve ? Making a smoke bomb ? i guess after a million click with a million users maybe there will be one version of this random wire that works. i am having trouble understanding why such a button exists ? it does not make sense to me. Let's all go wire up random parts and see what happens. who knows what we will discover. maybe one day there will be an entry in in a history book that says  faster than light travel , time machines and free energy were discovered by accident by someone clicking the autowire button in Dex .

if you are going to have a random wire button why not have a button that randomly selects some parts from the library and throws those on the page as well. The end result is the same. if you extrapolate that you could replace this tool with a single button. 'i'm feeling lucky' click it and kablam : there is a schematic made form some randomly selected parts, randomly wired, randomly placed on the board and randomly routed. saves the trouble of having to do all the tedious work and you can put in the marketing material : the fastest program to create a schematic and board , a single button click. you wouldn't even be lying : you never mentioned a working schematic or working board.

the video is rendering right now. it'll be tomorrow evening before it is up.

[free_electron]

here is a short one :
video is blurry as it was shot with an iphone and compressed down. for some reason youtube did not let me upload the hd version.

part 1 ( compressed the snot out of it )

[gocemk]

I for one am one of these "silent onlookers". What I see is a software vendor killing his own product and reputation by an unwillingness to accept criticism and an attitude that borders on paranoia. You have one of the most well known PCB designers in the community giving feedback on your product and this is how you react? If you had any sense at all you'd welcome his input and work with him to improve your software. I get the impression from this discussion that the biggest problem with DEX is its creator.

Kudo's to free for ignoring your personal attacks on him.

I just wanted to re-iterate this ^^, it echoes my feelings EXACTLY. Always accept criticism and welcome feedback, it's how you make your product better. Especially when it's from someone who actually knows what they're talking about, and doubly especially if it's free. Pardon the pun.

Iliya, your attitude towards free_electron is terrible, you won't survive for long if you treat your customers this way. I suggest you hire someone who can do this for you.

Same here.

[Wytnucls]

Hi Vince,
If you bring up the properties box (in 'Panels'), you can change the rectangle's height, width and center by typing in the required dimensions. Other attributes can be modified too, like straight corners.

Shapes default settings can also be modified by pressing the small arrow in the bottom right corner, if you always want sharp corners on your rectangles for instance.

[mswhin63]

here is a short one :
video is blurry as it was shot with an iphone and compressed down. for some reason youtube did not let me upload the hd version.

part 1 ( compressed the snot out of it )

Hi Vincent,

I checked your video and never had a problem with the adjustment of the rectangle, I have no adjustment problem at all smooth and came up with all the relevant information I needed. Wondering what operating system are you using? I also noticed that the default shape properties are set to rounded outside corners and the default characteristics can be change very easily and then you get square outside corners.

The only thing mentioned is the rotational angle. You are correct, I wouldn't be surprise that Iliya will be very quick work work on it and provide an update when it is possible to place the appropriate code in place. To me after checking I believe that the some conditions for evaluation should apply as you would any other product you evaluate. As a business owner I would use this as a template for how you would evaluate my products in business and from that I would not provide you with a job.

I am finding over time that this forum is taking on a Dave approach, Dave is an professional entertainer and although is abrupt that is the way he makes his money. What he is showing the inside emotional feel of a professional, whereas the real life is that people are going to be offended especially when the treatment is completed different to how you would do it in a professional manner. Bosses would not take that kindly!

Overall my assessment is that your evaluation is done in real-time and may have something wrong outside the software package. I am using Windows 8 but have also used VISTA as well and never came up with the problem in your video. This is the reason why discussion and proper support as you have obviously done with other package not only to allow the developer time to consider or in my case see that you are either wrong or something else has happened. I noticed a super fine bug as well, but prefer not to deal with it as it only appears after updating and never comes back after closing and re-opening. Maybe it is problems like this that are so trivial that the developer doesn't know about it because in my case never mention it or even re-produce without updating.

I believe all low cost product need to have a good appraisal done in a similar fashion as any other that i would do for any other product that I would do. In your case you have showed a double standard, one way you would evaluate in a highly structured and formal approach while the other hand a free product gets a once over without giving the developer enough time to deal with the issue.

There is one evaluation that you have never given and that is how quickly issues are resolved. I find them one of the highest of any software package I have ever used.

Anyway enough from me, I was able to finally follow your process and able to confidentially say that is has not been shown in my case. So maybe consider a different approach.

[Wytnucls]

No malfunctions on my side either (Windows 7 64 bit SSD i5).
To rotate objects precisely, modify the rotate angle as required or change the rotate snap angle to suit your design.
The measure tool can also be used to view the exact amount of rotation achieved, by laying it on one of the rectangle sides, after rotation.
It is also possible to lay a moveable guide line, at any chosen angle, before rotation. (It will show the angle amount in real time, as it is being rotated)

[free_electron]

Win 7 32 bit pro And win7 64 bit pro and a quadro graphics card. Yes the eval is real time. The program behaves like this on two machines i tried it on. This the version downloaded yesterday.

I call em as i see em.  I like the little callouts when placing and sizing the rectangle initially. That is a great way. Why are those not there when moving or sizing ? That is inconsistent behavior of the program.

As for the rounded corners : yes, you can change that 'afterwards'. My point is : there should be no reason to change afterwards : the defaults are set wrong off factory .

Also the fill doesnt work.

Then there is the panel overlaying the bottom tool bar. That does not happen alll the time. It is random.

I recorded this video in one shot without any editing. To have that many things go wrong .
This is also not a set up. I hit record and start playing with the program. Before i started recording i had not played with the program. Everything from the library problems on is unrehearsed and recorded as is. This is not 'entertainment' it is just a recording of someone experiencing quirks in this program and showing them so the developer can fix em. Some of these quirks are hard to exain in words. Now you can see what happens , what i do and how the program reacts. You can also hear my expectations. My expectations may be wrong , but then show me how to do it right.

Take setting the rectangle properties.ctake a look at how powerpoint works. On the ribbon bar you pick color, size, width etc then click the object of choice and put it down. Dex does that too.

If afterwards you want to change those properties you select the object or objects and go back to the same controls on the ribbbon to change. Almost all windows programs work that way.
Dex doesnt do that. That is inconsistent ui design and annoying. The properties panel is not shown by default. Sometimes i get an errror 'dex cant show the properties panel, please restart.

I am not filming this as entertainment. Click record : start doing something , comment as things happen.

Then there is the library fiasco.

There is a third video coming on parts creation. That also has some weird things going on.

here is how programs are evaluated in a professional environment.I have been in many of such sessions.
you are invited in a room with a computer with only the icon to launch the program. you are given a sheet of paper with a task to complete. they ask you to speak out what you are doing and your reaction.
everything is filmed through one way mirror. nobody says a word. they only observe. normally you complete the session and then there is an interview afterwards. that is the normal way of doing it.
i very frequently run into  a situation where all of a sudden there is an interruption and someone comes on speakerphone. saying : we know about that one, skip it. nobody else has found this bug yet. i seem to have a knack of finding all of em , and then some ( things like a wizard screwing up because i hit the back button twice changed something and went forward two steps. a good wizard can handle that.  most people only think linear. do this, then that ,then that. i constantly change my mind because i may see something that would make a better outcome. if the wizard cannot cope with that it will go nuts.

the end result is that the software i have done this for ( they interview like 100 people this way , this is through a professional study bureau called Nichols Research ) keep on insisting that they want me back whenever there is a new beta because 'he finds three times as many problems per hour than anyone else of the interviewees, and has some pretty good idea's how to make the software better'.  this is 'big boy' software. can't tell you what it is as these things happen under NDA but i will let slip it is for electronics and made by a well known manufacturer of test equipment.

the video is shot from the same 'angle' my task is to create a schematic symbol for an opamp. so i delve in and start playing to see if i can draw some simple shapes and how shape manipulation works in DEX. and then i hit non consistent behavior and things that are plain wrong or hard bugs.

i can live with that properties panel but it would be more consistent if the xy coordinates and length and width shown during the initial placement are also visible when moving or sizing the object afterwards. other food for thought : if moving a rectangle only the center coordinate is shown but there is no visible marker where that center is. what if i want to make two concentric circles ? most cad programs have features like snap to edge, snap to center and let you do  things like move from here to there , meaning you pick a ' pickup point' and then mouse to where you want that point to be now. DEX doesn't have that.
illustrator, rhino, solidworks, photoshop , that all can do that.  this is a very basic and simple operation

[aroby]

Seems that Iliya  is no longer on eevblog. I filed a bug report on the units issue and he let me know that the rectangle issue noted above has been fixed. Instead of making videos, it would be more productive to file a bug report.  It's  a shame that some of you keep hounding him, but I  guess there's some history here.

[Wytnucls]

This is not beta software. Why are there still so many issues with units or the simple task of drawing and moving a rectangle? How are we to know that these are bugs to report and not quirks with the program design? Makes me wonder about the integrity of the software when going through more demanding tasks...

[Wytnucls]

The fill doesn't work with hollow shapes. Perhaps it was designed that way. Choose a filled rectangle initially and then the color can be changed later in properties or selected from the palette at the bottom of the screen.

[mswhin63]

Seems that Iliya  is no longer on eevblog. I filed a bug report on the units issue and he let me know that the rectangle issue noted above has been fixed. Instead of making videos, it would be more productive to file a bug report.  It's  a shame that some of you keep hounding him, but I  guess there's some history here.

Maybe he is still watching the thread, but never-mind, the rectangle issue seems to have a fix only a few minutes ago I downloaded the update. I also tested the rounded corners and the default behaviour has also been fixed. So I must admit he is quick, even when I didn't see a problem. Maybe he could simulate somehow.

Consultation would have been a much nicer way to go instead of the hounding.

This is not beta software. Why are there still so many issues with units or the simple task of drawing and moving a rectangle? How are we to know that these are bugs to report and not quirks with the program design? Makes me wonder about the integrity of the software when going through more demanding tasks...

I am not about to pay $1000.00 or more dollar on a highly refined product that I believe still requires updates like Eagle, Altium. Dex has always had an ongoing roadmap to run with as we who started using it a long time ago were quite happy with it limitations, and quite happy to watch it grow. When I came across something I would nicely mention it and within a few days it would be resolved if not earlier. I know that Eagle waits approx 3 to 6 months before placing updates on bugs. I am not sure about Altium whether they are the super advance and expensive software. Maybe they are the ultimate and never require software update. Never tested past the evaluation. I will find out soon as i have to use Altium more over the coming years. At least I don't have to pay for it

I may own a business but I do not have the finances to pay for a high priced software until I restructure. In the meantime software package like Dex have been a great step with constant updates which do not bug me at all. A few seconds of my time for a great saving to fine with me.

[free_electron]

i just downloaded the update.

the problem with the hiding toolbar is back. it disappeared yesterday , but after installing the update it is back. the panels overlap the coordinate bar

[free_electron]

great. now Norton slammed on the brakes and erased autotrax.exe :

Threat name : suspicious.cloud.7.ep

that's it. game over. when i start seeing stuff like that the eval stops and the program gets blacklisted.

[baljemmett]

that's it. game over. when i start seeing stuff like that the eval stops and the program gets blacklisted.

Argh - these damned vague heuristic-based malware detections are a pain in the arse.  The software is almost certainly perfectly clean, but something about it made Norton decide that this particular build has an odd smell and so it's decided to spook you with a big scary warning.  It could be something as simple as "we haven't seen many people downloading this file yet"...

Unfortunately there's probably very little Iliya can do about it for the moment; perhaps submit the file to Norton as a false positive, wait for the updates to trickle out, and then hope it doesn't happen again on some random future build.  Alas, in my experience at work, the damage may well already be done by then - a potential customer probably isn't going to be reassured by "that's a false positive, we've reported it to the AV vendor, please try again"!

[free_electron]

i performed a deep scan, and it is indeed the heuristics tripping over something. DEX.exe comes up clean but autotrax.exe kicks up a trigger.
I suspect autotrax.exe is the part that checks for updates on lauch , if none are found then dex.exe is called.
Anyway i can live with not having autotrax.exe.  dex still runs so for now i am not blacklisting this

Iliya is doing quick releases and i understand that full regression testing is not always possible in such short release cycles so in this case i am forgiving.

i have to give it to him : he is quick with bug fixes so that is extra bonus points. that is one reason i keep on trying to work with this thing. it is an impressive effort for being a one man show. but it has some really rough edges that need spit and polish to really make it useful

and don't think for a moment i don't give altium hell. there is not a week that goes by without me being on the phone with them showing them some problem.

This is not a private crusade against a single tool. I simply want stuff that works and works consistently.

[codeboy2k]

upload it to virustotal.com . they will run 55 virus scanners against it and give you the results page.