Bad experience with JLCPCB and DHL – things you should know before ordering PCBs

[ebastler]

I used "Europacket" for my last two orders from JLCPCB. They bundle orders from multiple customers and ship them to Europe in bulk, taking care of all customs matters. I understand that the shipping cost you pay to JLCPCB includes a share for customs, but apparently no significant handling fee.

A JLCPCB agent in Europe unbundles and re-ships the individual packages to the end customers. That re-shipping step did take a couple days more than I thought it should have, in both cases. But I received my orders without having to pay any additional fees. One was small (below the German customs limit), the other was well above.

[Bud]

Worrying about PCBs or parts delivery cost will eat you alive, that is why i stopped worrying about it long time ago, as well as about gas price. Each time time that cost comes to my mind i just think for the moment how much my wife spends to get her hair or nails done, and then my petty courier delivery charges all of a sudden become insignificant in that grand scheme of things 

[drussell]

I just placed my first ever order with JLCPCB. I'm in Canada, so the $5 USD cost of the order was converted to $6.25 CAD. In the past, when ordering things with FedEx, my experience has been that they just dump the item at your doorstep, then they wait 3 weeks and mail you an invoice for their brokerage service, which has a $50+ base fee. So, I never use FedEx if I can avoid it. I picked DHL Express, which cost $19 shipping for my $6 order. The package is now in the country, and DHL have just sent me an invoice for an additional $20 to get it through customs. Surely at $6.25 CAD, this order doesn't even have any customs to be paid. DHL is wanting to be paid over $40 in order to deliver a tiny box with 10 small PCBs valued at $6. Not impressed. If I want to self-clear, I need to deliver documentation by hand and pick up the item from their depot, both of which are near the airport, a half hour drive away. Waiting to hear back if they'll let me do that at this point. :-/

Yeah, of course... you're free to try navigate the world of doing your own customs clearance if you wish...

What you're paying FedEx or DHL for is their brokerage service, clearing customs for you.  Even if there is only a few dollars of goods coming through, and very little tax (although you're always going to have to pay at least GST) owing on it, someone still has to do the paperwork and pay any brokerage and clearance and processing fees....  If you are physically close to the port of entry and are set up to do the paperwork yourself, have at it....

Canada Post is pretty good, I think they're still only $5 or $7 for the actual brokerage fee, and many times if it is a small-dollar item, they don't even bother doing the paperwork, sometimes it will even show up without you even having to pay GST....

...don't count on it though!

This is what we've allowed our system to become, don't blame FedEx, UPS, DHL or Canada Post...  They didn't make the asinine rules that we importers of goods need to follow!

[Yansi]

This is what we've allowed our system to become, don't blame FedEx, UPS, DHL or Canada Post...  They didn't make the asinine rules that we importers of goods need to follow!

But they are the ones charging for nonsense.  Not sure how about in Canada, I am only familiar in doing customs paperwork in a completely different country, but from what I know, it is a just copying few relevant numbers to a computer system and then paying the shit up. The actual paperwork done is barely worth of 5 minutes of someone's work. Maybe 10 minutes, if you make the work for them harder, by not looking the specific category of the goods in advance (TARIC,KN).

Unfortunately, such fees are not legislatively regulated, so they can charge whatever they find fit. You, as the importer are the one responsible and it is your job to research the relevant law and rules, to not be surprised later.

[drussell]

This is what we've allowed our system to become, don't blame FedEx, UPS, DHL or Canada Post...  They didn't make the asinine rules that we importers of goods need to follow!

But they are the ones charging for nonsense.  Not sure how about in Canada, I am only familiar in doing customs paperwork in a completely different country, but from what I know, it is a just copying few relevant numbers to a computer system and then paying the shit up. The actual paperwork done is barely worth of 5 minutes of someone's work. Maybe 10 minutes, if you make the work for them harder, by not looking the specific category of the goods in advance (TARIC,KN).

Firstly, I'm not defending the ridiculously high charges that sometimes get charged, BUT...

If you ran a shipping company and every package that came in took "5 minutes of someone's work or maybe 10 minutes" are you saying that you would somehow just do that for free, or something?  Not packages that are part of some bulk-rate importing deal like Digikey or RockAuto or whatever have because they ship thousands and thousands of packages over the border each day with all the documentation, country of origin and applicable duties sorted out, customs paperwork already done beforehand so it can be pre-cleared at the shippers' expense, but just random small, cheap packages from random countries.....  For free??

For every package?!  Really??   

[drussell]

Unfortunately, such fees are not legislatively regulated, so they can charge whatever they find fit. You, as the importer are the one responsible and it is your job to research the relevant law and rules, to not be surprised later.

True enough....  and you're free to use a third party brokerage service if you wish, but it would likely delay the clearance of your imported goods for a one-off....  As long as they're not urgent that might well be the way to go if FedEx wants $50 just for the fee and you can find a budget customs brokerage agent willing to work with you on small packages, but good luck.  They will all likely want to deal in large shipments where they can actually make a buck and survive.

Perhaps you should start a brokerage service for people here to use for our small shipments! 

What are you going to charge?  $5 per package like Canada Post?  I think that's a downright reasonable fee.

You'd better be seriously efficient if you think you can regularly clear small-value packages for a $5 fee with all the overhead costs of running a brokerage service.  (Obviously the customer would still have to pay any taxes due, I just mean what do you think would be fair for your part, doing the actual brokerage process?)

I highly doubt that would be a sustainable business plan.   

[2N3055]

Stupid thing is that it is same amount of work (paperwork and footwork) to pass through customs 5 USD worth of PCBs and 1000 USD shipment of PCB. If you import a lot, you will see that they will charge you same fee for 30 USD value and 4000 USD valute of goods, if effort is the same. Taxes will differ but their fee will be the same.
Also one thing is being forgotten: they are your legal representative of you in customs process. If you pass them fraudulent data and they get caught, they are also in a problem. So they have insurance for any penalties that go with it... Hence they charge fee..
I don't like the fee either, but, hey, I wouldn't want to work for free, so I shouldn't expect them to do it.

Also. despite DHL shipping and customs, it is still much cheaper that PCB made locally.  So I don't care..

[S. Petrukhin]

Look here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/jlcpcb-offer-until-25-december/msg3336954/#msg3336954

[daveismissing]

The option I chose this week says FEDEX INTL Priority specifically.
Now FEDEX INTL PRIORITY has all brokerage and customs charges built into the price.
I will be very annoyed if JCL lied about what service they used on my order.
 

[Jay_Diddy_B]

I just placed my first ever order with JLCPCB. I'm in Canada, so the $5 USD cost of the order was converted to $6.25 CAD. In the past, when ordering things with FedEx, my experience has been that they just dump the item at your doorstep, then they wait 3 weeks and mail you an invoice for their brokerage service, which has a $50+ base fee. So, I never use FedEx if I can avoid it. I picked DHL Express, which cost $19 shipping for my $6 order. The package is now in the country, and DHL have just sent me an invoice for an additional $20 to get it through customs. Surely at $6.25 CAD, this order doesn't even have any customs to be paid. DHL is wanting to be paid over $40 in order to deliver a tiny box with 10 small PCBs valued at $6. Not impressed. If I want to self-clear, I need to deliver documentation by hand and pick up the item from their depot, both of which are near the airport, a half hour drive away. Waiting to hear back if they'll let me do that at this point. :-/

Hi,

I think that you should have chosen the DDP option:




DDP means 'Delivered Duty Paid'. This option means that you should not be stung with additional charges by DHL.

Has anybody had any experience with the DHL DPP option in Canada?

Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B

[wraper]

The option I chose this week says FEDEX INTL Priority specifically.
Now FEDEX INTL PRIORITY has all brokerage and customs charges built into the price.
I will be very annoyed if JCL lied about what service they used on my order.

I think you delude yourself. Unless it says DDP, nothing is included. But items below CAD $20 are not taxable.

[CatalinaWOW]

I just came across this thread and think all of the anger is misdirected.  It has been stated here by many that they don't mind paying the tax, just the fee for finding out what the taxes are.  And stated by many that they could bypass this fee by doing all of the paperwork and legwork themselves, but it is risky and too much trouble.

In both cases the fundamental problem is a byzantine tax code.  I can't speak for every country but here in the US the laws run to thousands of pages.  It really is a major job to correctly understand and apply the correct tax.  While there are many variations on implementation I suspect that most first world countries are equally complex.  I have had the opportunity to lightly sample several European countries and those samples support this theory.  These complex codes are the result of decades or even hundreds of years of attempts to create fairness, protect privileged parties, raise revenues or punish bad actors.  The complaints about the system should go to those with the power to change it.  That isn't the vendors of parts or the shippers of parts.  It is a huge job to understand the customs rules of my country, and I assume of most others.  Being able to do it, and to assume the risks of error deserves significant compensation.  The only way to avoid this is to either simplify or eliminate these tax structures.

[dietert1]

Isn't it obvious that those extra costs are more or less justified? In my opinion the real problem are those poisoned gifts from China meant to ruin western electronics industries. I liked bud's comparison to the price of a hair cut.
My business are medical devices and when i see a finger pulse oximeter (including sensor, display and power supply) for € 10.99 at real.de that makes me angry. These are poisoned gifts as well, since certification as a medical device alone would generate costs more than that. But OK, we should shut up and try to use them to our advantage, just as those fake FFP2 masks.

Regards, Dieter

[S. Petrukhin]

Isn't it obvious that those extra costs are more or less justified? In my opinion the real problem are those poisoned gifts from China meant to ruin western electronics industries. I liked bud's comparison to the price of a hair cut.
My business are medical devices and when i see a finger pulse oximeter (including sensor, display and power supply) for € 10.99 at real.de that makes me angry. These are poisoned gifts as well, since certification as a medical device alone would generate costs more than that. But OK, we should shut up and try to use them to our advantage, just as those fake FFP2 masks.

Regards, Dieter

When the Soviet Union was destroyed, there were many "western teachers" who told us - people who lived in a planned economy, that only competition and only a free market is fair, equitable and ensure development. 

[Yansi]

Of course it is fair, but only to those greedy ones with powers 

[Kjelt]

When the Soviet Union was destroyed, there were many "western teachers" who told us - people who lived in a planned economy, that only competition and only a free market is fair, equitable and ensure development. 

Neoliberalist capitalism is also destroying itself with too big monopolistic companies that just buy up every competition and kill it. Stockholders that earn thousand times more money than the persons who do the actual real work which makes the profits and so on. There is a new redistribution of money, power and work needed in this world and we should consume less energy till we have found a good sudtainable energy source. But next day nothing changes.

[S. Petrukhin]

When the Soviet Union was destroyed, there were many "western teachers" who told us - people who lived in a planned economy, that only competition and only a free market is fair, equitable and ensure development. 

Neoliberalist capitalism is also destroying itself with too big monopolistic companies that just buy up every competition and kill it. Stockholders that earn thousand times more money than the persons who do the actual real work which makes the profits and so on. There is a new redistribution of money, power and work needed in this world and we should consume less energy till we have found a good sudtainable energy source. But next day nothing changes.

Unfortunately, the government in most countries is a commercial project. People talk a lot, but they do very little useful, and yet they get paid for it. Well, they come up with threats, which they then "fight" themselves so that society considers the government necessary. I don't see any limit to this and any changes for the better. On the contrary, governments are becoming more arrogant, stupid, and insatiable.

[Kjelt]

We are the government, at least that is how it is supposed to work 

[dietert1]

What the Chinese are doing isn't fair competition. It's a lie to offer PCBs for $ 6 that in the end cost about $ 50. It's a lie to call something a pulse oximeter that is not certified as a medical device. It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more. I think the deeper reason they are trying to do that to all others must be racism and/or nationalism. And people from the west are always so happy if they can save a dollar or two.

Sorry for the rant. For the time being i am still in business.

Regards, Dieter

[Yansi]

But the difference is, that you really pay $6 for the PCBs. The rest is shipping,  VAT + other customs fee and customs services by the shipping company.

You just can't blame JLC or China, that you have to pay your VAT, customs fees and for shipping.   

[ebastler]

It's a lie to offer PCBs for $ 6 that in the end cost about $ 50.

I don't think so. If you want it express-delivered, by a courier service which charges significant customs handling fees on top of a significant shipping charge, that's your choice. You can always opt for slow-boat delivery, which sometimes is even included in the base price.

It's a lie to call something a pulse oximeter that is not certified as a medical device.

I don't think so. Why would the term "pulse oximeter" be reserved for certified medical devices? Although I would personally not want to buy a non-certified one.

It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more.

Yes, I think so too. The "FFP2" designation specifies a well-defined filtering grade which can't be reached with such large holes.

[S. Petrukhin]

What the Chinese are doing isn't fair competition. It's a lie to offer PCBs for $ 6 that in the end cost about $ 50. It's a lie to call something a pulse oximeter that is not certified as a medical device. It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more. I think the deeper reason they are trying to do that to all others must be racism and/or nationalism. And people from the west are always so happy if they can save a dollar or two.

Sorry for the rant. For the time being i am still in business.

Regards, Dieter

You seem a little upset about the intrusion into your comfort zone. 
I do not know how Europe is free from low-quality and counterfeit goods, how much certification protects you.
You have a long culture of market consumption, and you should be immune in people. Doesn't that help? Maybe the European bureaucracy is no longer effective?

In any case, the price coordinate system of Europe and China is different. Partly because of the different standard of living, partly because of the different distribution of resources.

But I assure you the PCB is sold for $2. Before the transport system was destroyed by the sheep-virus, I could have a delivery by Russian post for $6. Agree, this is a good price for air travel from China to Russia.

There are 4 modern PCB production facilities in my city, some of them are closed and work for the army. There are several businesses in the neighboring town. I asked them: why do the Chinese offer me 24 hours to make a PCB that costs $2, and you need 2 weeks and the cost is 10-20 times more expensive. They tell me: the Chinese have a massive accumulation of orders, they have a continuous process, and we have overhead costs for individual production in any time. It turns out a vicious circle: local manufacturers can't collect many orders to share the overhead and so the price is expensive, but because of the expensive price, there are not many orders.

Chinese guys are great - they work hard and get recognition. And, please note, the Chinese do not act as is customary in the Western world: their price has not increased for many years. They do not engage in dumping to destroy competitors. They work conscientiously for the benefit of people. A Western monopolist would quickly crush competition with low prices, and then gradually start raising prices. Again, I don't know how it is in Europe, but we see it very well in Russia.

Moreover, modern sales management is so strong and has powerful tools, almost hypnosis, to sell anything.

[wraper]

It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more.

Yes, I think so too. The "FFP2" designation specifies a well-defined filtering grade which can't be reached with such large holes.

Both of you apparently do not know how air filters work. It's not like there are small holes which should not pass the particle.

[2N3055]

What the Chinese are doing isn't fair competition. It's a lie to offer PCBs for $ 6 that in the end cost about $ 50. It's a lie to call something a pulse oximeter that is not certified as a medical device. It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more. I think the deeper reason they are trying to do that to all others must be racism and/or nationalism. And people from the west are always so happy if they can save a dollar or two.

Sorry for the rant. For the time being i am still in business.

Regards, Dieter

With do all respect, DHL is a German shit of a company that is extorting us. And taxes on a 30 USD shipment (including 20 USD for DHL without which it wouldn't even have to taxed) to government would be some 7.5 euros.  So for me that would be 10 USD to JLCPCB for actual boards,  20 USD to German DHL for shipment and another 30-40 USD for customs clearance process fee, and 7,5 USD to Croatian government. So yeah, those Chinese that did all the production for 10 USD, yeah, they are the assholes... 

JLCPCB 10 USD (manufacturing)
DHL 20 USD (transport)
DHL 40 USD (bureaucracy)
Croatian government 7,5 USD (tax )

JLCPCB don't belong to the same sentence as those fake cheats that sell fake medical devices. Do not insult them. They are making honest to God PCBs, at prices that allows us to make our products in EU without paying extortion money for few boards locally... If EU board houses were 20-30% more expensive, I would support them with all my heart. And would receive boards faster and no customs. I prefer EU sources. PCBs are only thing that I import outside EU. Price differences are not 40%, they are 400-500%.  No thanks. I took a look at JLCPCB factory floor. There is no Chinese cheap labor there. Factory is super high tech, and there is no reason why EU couldn't have one like that and make profit with 40-50 % higher price than JLCPCB. Actually there is reason, greed and fact that nobody wants to do any manufacturing anymore, unless they can charge you king's ransom..

[S. Petrukhin]

It's a lie to call something a FFP2 mask if the tissue has holes of 100 um or more.

Yes, I think so too. The "FFP2" designation specifies a well-defined filtering grade which can't be reached with such large holes.

Both of you apparently do not know how air filters work. It's not like there are small holes which should not pass the particle.

It seems to me that there is no saturation and no ability to avoid saturation in this picture.

As for protective masks, this is a great stupidity of mankind, as well as other antibacterial agents. So far, there are no effective ways to resist viruses, except for their own immunity. By helping his supposedly immune system, we spoiled him, and he became weak. This is some kind of obscurantism that will destroy people. This is my opinion. Maybe it's wrong.