Germany: SOLAR freaking roadways - below TRAINS!

[jusaca]

Our fantastic german railway company "Deutsche Bahn" says they want to test putting solar cells between all the rails...
They make some calculations to get something around 100 kW per km of rails. Combined with the 60.000 km of rails this could achieve a PV production of 6 GW!

I see absolutly no problem with high-speed stones and dust beeing thrown onto the panels... Or even longer train delays due to cleaning / replacing of the panels... oO

Unfortunately I couldn't find any source in english for this, so here is only the link to the german news:
https://www.netzwelt.de/news/205196-deutsche-bahn-laesst-testen-solarzellen-gleis-bieten-potenzial-5-atomkraftwerken.html

[Haenk]

Good thing is: Before they receive any damage, they will be stolen

[AVGresponding]

Good thing is: Before they receive any damage, they will be stolen

 

Never ceases to amaze how these stupid ideas get mooted before every available square inch of roof space has been used. Hell, even then, putting them in such a high maintenance scenario would still be stupid.

[Haenk]

It gets even better: There are significant financial advantages planting your solar parks *next* to railroads and highways.
Funny sidenote: "Erzgebirge" (where this experiment takes place) is just that - mountains (i.e. "Gebirge" in German) and lots (I mean *LOTS*) of high trees. So I assume this is about the worst place in Germany to install solar panels.

[janoc]

Well, compared to the "solar roadways" nonsense where cars and such are supposed to actually drive over the panels, with the railways that issue at least isn't there. And the required cabling and such would be easy to install because they have both power and signalling/control cables next (and above!) to the track already anyway. 

Panel maintenance likely wouldn't be a source of delays because a panel or even an entire section going offline doesn't mean the trains need to stop running for it to be fixed ASAP. Any maintenance would likely be done during regular track maintenance/inspections.

Is it a good idea? Probably not. But it is certainly less dumb and more realistic than the other "solar roads" concepts.

[janoc]

It gets even better: There are significant financial advantages planting your solar parks *next* to railroads and highways.

Yeah - but that assumes you own the land there. Railways typically don't, they usually own only a narrow strip of land around the track and nothing is allowed to be built there for safety reasons. So if they (DB)  want to install solar somewhere they don't have that many places where to put those panels beyond the station building roofs and such. That there are much better places where solar panels could be put in general is not very relevant to their business when they can't put them there.

Again, I am not advocating this but considering their circumstances it is perhaps less dumb than it looks.

[TheWelly888]

A tamping machine driver will need to take extra care to avoid damaging the solar panels on the sleepers.

It is just as well DB banned train toilets from dumping straight on the tracks a few years ago!

[pcprogrammer]

I see absolutly no problem with high-speed stones and dust beeing thrown onto the panels... Or even longer train delays due to cleaning / replacing of the panels... oO

They can do like in the old wild wild west. Instead of a bullbar they can mount a brush to clean the panels

[AndyBeez]

But obviously not on the U-Bahn?

So what about the iron fillings that deposit a layer or rust on all trackside surfaces? And an ICE-T travelling at 300kmh produces how much down force/suction effect? Okay, so maybe not on the high speed network? Maintenance hell. Even for German technicians.

I should add, any object trapped under the boggie will scrape those panels right off.

[Bud]

Let them do it, seems the country is desperate for energy sources, surely there will be other ideas more stupid than this one.

[SiliconWizard]

Well, compared to the "solar roadways" nonsense where cars and such are supposed to actually drive over the panels, with the railways that issue at least isn't there. And the required cabling and such would be easy to install because they have both power and signalling/control cables next (and above!) to the track already anyway. 

Panel maintenance likely wouldn't be a source of delays because a panel or even an entire section going offline doesn't mean the trains need to stop running for it to be fixed ASAP. Any maintenance would likely be done during regular track maintenance/inspections.

Is it a good idea? Probably not. But it is certainly less dumb and more realistic than the other "solar roads" concepts.

A good idea? This is complete nonsense again.
While it would appear to be somewhat better than solar roadways, I'm not sure some people realize the constraints rails are submitted to and the cost of maintenance of those already.

The bullshit has got to stop. But will it?

[pcprogrammer]

The bullshit has got to stop. But will it?

Of course not, it makes money go round, and that is what this whole world is about. Money

[SiliconWizard]

Just for those who wouldn't know about rail maintenance: https://www.railway-technology.com/news/germany-to-invest-e86bn-for-railway-infrastructure-maintenance/
Gives you an idea of the cost.

[ebastler]

German railways' partner for this is a UK company, Bankset, who have developed this technology. So here's the whole drama in English: https://www.bankset.com/

Looks like Bankset does not have any other assets beyond this concept. In any case their website looks like it was cobbled together by a one-man band the other night...

Edit: Hang on, Bankset have a second website which looks more substantial: https://bankset-energy.com/. Strange; are they so embarrassed by their solar rails concept that they have kept it outside of their real website?

[tszaboo]

How much do these tracks move during the summer/winter?
Besides, yes, you look at al those rusty bolts and dust, and place all those shiny solar panels next to them.
That being said, this is probably 100 times better idea than the roadways, and maybe I'm wrong.

[floobydust]

Let them do it, seems the country is desperate for energy sources, surely there will be other ideas more stupid than this one.

It's not that they're stupid - they are completely unqualified - politicians have zero education in energy, thermodynamics... and look what results. That, and their cronies are likely doing the sales/installation.
If only engineers had some balls and authority, were consulted first about renewables- there would be less trainwrecks going on and these magical solar roadways projects.

Strange that photo shows no shading on the solar panel's edge... Fotoforensics one edge looked "enhanced".
Also on old, unused rusty track and I wonder if the clearance is enough the panels don't get hit with undercarriage parts. One panel getting picked up will trash many.
Here, the trains leak wheelbearing and truck grease, makes a mess on railroad ties.

[SiliconWizard]

Sure politicians are not qualified, but they are supposed to be surrounded by qualified people and they do pay vast amounts of money to experts and agencies. I don't think the problem is qualification per se. The problem is that ideology rules over science.

[pcprogrammer]

Sure politicians are not qualified, but they are supposed to be surrounded by qualified people and they do pay vast amounts of money to experts. and agencies I don't think the problem is qualification per se. The problem is that ideology rules over science.

You mean alleged experts. I have seen a lot of "consultants" during my working live to know not many of them are real experts. As long as you speak loudly and with some arrogance they quickly think you are an expert. Just another kind of politicians

And yes ideology seems to rule big time. But they seem to overlook one thing. The whole "renewable" scene is just shifting the problem to delay the inevitable. The demise of the human race. With all the production of solar panels, windmills and batteries we are still plundering the earth, and it will run out someday. They should put more effort in reducing over consumption and stopping population growth. But hey that is not economically viable.

But that is just my 2 cents worth

[Cyberdragon]

Good thing is: Before they receive any damage, they will be stolen

Not worth stealing. They'd all be shattered from vibrations and the force exerted by the train on the tracks, especially around curves. Wood and concrete ties can handle the strain, panels mounted above them likely made of the "finest" grade cheap crap? HA...no.

How much do these tracks move during the summer/winter?

Again, those panels will be toast.

[MadScientist]

Rails don’t move like that. That’s an optical illusion brought about by using a telephoto lens

[Rick Law]

Sure politicians are not qualified, but they are supposed to be surrounded by qualified people and they do pay vast amounts of money to experts. and agencies I don't think the problem is qualification per se. The problem is that ideology rules over science.

You mean alleged experts. I have seen a lot of "consultants" during my working live to know not many of them are real experts. As long as you speak loudly and with some arrogance they quickly think you are an expert. Just another kind of politicians

And yes ideology seems to rule big time. But they seem to overlook one thing. The whole "renewable" scene is just shifting the problem to delay the inevitable. The demise of the human race. With all the production of solar panels, windmills and batteries we are still plundering the earth, and it will run out someday. They should put more effort in reducing over consumption and stopping population growth. But hey that is not economically viable.

But that is just my 2 cents worth

Delaying is the whole game.  One way or another, individually, we will all die.  Some of old age, some of illnesses.  Most of us do what we can to delay that inevitable event.  Society is the same -- delay the inevitable so society doesn't die too soon.  But die it will someday, remember, even the Sun itself will run out of fuel some day.

Even eating is but a temporary solution to a perpetual problem, but certainly I will take some food just to last yet another day.  So I am fine with finding energy solutions that just delay the inevitable.

Trouble is, our politicians (aided by the people surrounding them) often select solutions based on their own benefit (political contributions, etc.) rather than for the benefit of society.  Given the quality of education these days, I doubt they can really pick the better solution even if they do have a "pure heart."

These solar walkways and solar road is dumb.  This solar panel between rails is dumb.  From my gut feel (ie: no real hard stats I can quote), they will be not be net energy positive if you include maintenance cost.  They are vanity projects for politicians.

[Cyberdragon]

Rails don’t move like that. That’s an optical illusion brought about by using a telephoto lens

A zoom lens warped the middle of the screen not the edges? Oh yes they can move, badly, they are called "sun kinks". They expand 1ft for every 1800ft when hot. They can get shoved by several feet in turns if there is any ballast issue. In either of these cases, normal rail ties usually survive. No way in hell would solar panels take even the relatively small strain each tie takes, unless you added flex points at the connections to tne rails, which means more $, and causing more vibration issues, meaning you'd have to dampen it, meaning even more $ for a tiny panel.

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-train-tracks-buckle-in-extreme-heat-2013-7

Ah yes, more "lens effects".

[pcprogrammer]

Delaying is the whole game.  One way or another, individually, we will all die.  Some of old age, some of illnesses.  Most of us do what we can to delay that inevitable event.  Society is the same -- delay the inevitable so society doesn't die too soon.  But die it will someday, remember, even the Sun itself will run out of fuel some day.

Even eating is but a temporary solution to a perpetual problem, but certainly I will take some food just to last yet another day.  So I am fine with finding energy solutions that just delay the inevitable.

Trouble is, our politicians (aided by the people surrounding them) often select solutions based on their own benefit (political contributions, etc.) rather than for the benefit of society.  Given the quality of education these days, I doubt they can really pick the better solution even if they do have a "pure heart."

These solar walkways and solar road is dumb.  This solar panel between rails is dumb.  From my gut feel (ie: no real hard stats I can quote), they will be not be net energy positive if you include maintenance cost.  They are vanity projects for politicians.

Without a doubt we will all die, and we all hope of old age, and I will hopefully die before the real shit hits the fan. And that will certainly be well before the sun gives in.

For me it is the hypocrisy of what we are spoon fed by the governments and media that bothers me. But when they start telling the truth the end might well be here very soon due to all the idiots starting to demonstrate and try to overthrow these governments with chaos kicking in.

About the hypocrisy, for instance in the Netherlands a lot of people where not granted building permissions due to the nitrogen problems, but what do they do, they grant permission to Zandvoort racing track to expand into the dunes. How is that not in conflict with the nitrogen problems.

Sure I don't have a fool proof solution either, and I won't stop eating for sure, but I try to moderate on what I consume. Economy would suffer if everybody was like me

[floobydust]

Is there a successful solar roadways project anywhere in the world? One that makes enough energy to pay for itself and repairs/maintenance? Engineers know the answer, it's a basic back of a napkin sketch.

[tszaboo]

Sure politicians are not qualified, but they are supposed to be surrounded by qualified people and they do pay vast amounts of money to experts. and agencies I don't think the problem is qualification per se. The problem is that ideology rules over science.

You mean alleged experts. I have seen a lot of "consultants" during my working live to know not many of them are real experts. As long as you speak loudly and with some arrogance they quickly think you are an expert. Just another kind of politicians

And yes ideology seems to rule big time. But they seem to overlook one thing. The whole "renewable" scene is just shifting the problem to delay the inevitable. The demise of the human race. With all the production of solar panels, windmills and batteries we are still plundering the earth, and it will run out someday. They should put more effort in reducing over consumption and stopping population growth. But hey that is not economically viable.

But that is just my 2 cents worth

You really need to read up on the realist side of global warming and climate change. Not the leftist "impending doom tomorrow, we are already late" or the right wing denialist. On every measure, humanity is doing better than yesterday, less people in poverty and the growth rate is dropping. Do you want less people in the planet, the best way to do it is to lift people from poverty and educate them. There has been so much bullshit about climate change, and it is an industry, selling you this.
Did you know for example, that the "renewable and green" cotton shopping bag needs to be used for something like 20000 times to have the same environmental impact than the single use plastic bag? And that's what they sell you as green. Think about it for a minute.