Author Topic: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator  (Read 19111 times)

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Offline daqq

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2019, 06:21:00 pm »
Futureman: Those look great! They should get them independently by some serious organization, such as the UL, TUV, or even send one device to Dave here, to validate their claims.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2019, 06:23:14 pm »
Futureman: Those look great! They should get them independently by some serious organization, such as the UL, TUV, or even send one device to Dave here, to validate their claims.

They won't, they know Dave (or any similarly competent engineer) would rip their claims to shreds and point out all the holes in their ideas.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2019, 06:25:47 pm »
Futureman: Those look great! They should get them independently by some serious organization, such as the UL, TUV, or even send one device to Dave here, to validate their claims.

They won't, they know Dave (or any similarly competent engineer) would rip their claims to shreds and point out all the holes in their ideas.

Heresy! These aren't just ideas anymore they're real things! He saw them and knows they're real. No need to check them out now just buy them.
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2019, 03:02:00 am »
There's no energy "stored" in magnets, magnetism is not energy

The energy density of a field is:
\[ e = \frac{B^2}{2 \mu_0} \]

Integrate over space to get the energy stored in the magnet. :)

Another way to put it: the magnet has a large hysteresis loop in its B-H curve; the area of this curve corresponds to the energy dissipated in going around said loop.  If you used it as a transformer core, that would be its core loss every cycle.

I think it's going to be a "what happens when you short a charged capacitor into a discharged capacitor" situation, i.e., half the energy goes into actual heat, the other half goes into energy in the field.  The magnetic version of charge is flux, which is conserved, but the energy is divided.

The funny thing is, perpetual motion types most likely aren't clever enough to figure out how to extract incremental energy from a magnet.  I'm not even quite sure how you would do that; doing it passively would be difficult (demagnetizing it with an electromagnet will only consume more power), maybe you'd resort to heating it above Curie temp, demagnetizing a bit at a time.

But you need to be careful that you aren't using it as a boring old heat engine -- there is a strong tempco and some recoverable magnetization as long as T < Tc, and this variation could be used to repeatedly convert change in temperature into change in flux density.

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Offline DTJ

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2019, 03:18:17 am »

There's no energy "stored" in magnets, magnetism is not energy, it just enables the transfer and conversion of energy.


I thought rare earth magnets were manufactured by placing the 'rare earth mix' in strong magnetic field and then the powder is pressed and heated/cooled to 'store' the magnetic field.

I may  be wrong but ff this is correct then energy is stored - or converted because you don't get nothing for nothing. I agree magnetism is not energy a magnet needs to perform work in order for energy to be expended. 

 

Offline iMo

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2019, 04:58:57 am »
Magnetic energy density of an neodymium based magnet is around 400000 J/m3 (wikipedia).
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Offline IanB

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2019, 05:24:19 am »
There's no energy "stored" in magnets...

In addition to the previous answers, consider that in order to magnetize something you have to rearrange the internal magnetic domains so they are all aligned in the same direction. It takes a certain amount of work to perform this realignment as the domains are reluctant to move and you have to put some energy in to the system to achieve it. Similarly, if a permanent magnet stays magnetized it is internally holding on to the energy used to magnetize it.

That said, the stored energy is not a practical source of power since there is no easy way to get it back.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2019, 05:49:46 am »
Magnetic energy density of an neodymium based magnet is around 400 000 J/m3 (wikipedia).

That's not a lot. Heating oil has 4E10 J/m³, i.e. a factor of 100 000 more, if I got my math right.

So even if one could design a device which "extracts" that energy from the magnets, things wouldn't look so hot for the "10 kW" or "25 kW" devices mentioned in the posts above...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 06:34:55 am by ebastler »
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2019, 06:14:38 am »
Indeed.  And really, we're just arguing about facially false statements, without escaping from the already false premises these people use.  The only real solution is to simply point and laugh.  Don't comment, don't share.  Gently remind others that, yes, it is as dumb and antiscientific and too-good-to-be as it sounds.  That's it.  Actually trying to enter into an argument based upon a false premise is more disingenuous to yourself, than the premise is to others.

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Offline iMo

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2019, 04:38:06 pm »
Magnetic energy density of an neodymium based magnet is around 400 000 J/m3 (wikipedia).

That's not a lot. Heating oil has 4E10 J/m³, i.e. a factor of 100 000 more, if I got my math right.

So even if one could design a device which "extracts" that energy from the magnets, things wouldn't look so hot for the "10 kW" or "25 kW" devices mentioned in the posts above...

Unless they bought a piece of "magnetar" off ebay, with the magnetic energy density of 40 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 J/m3 .. :)
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Offline billpennock

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2020, 04:00:19 pm »
I know this is late but...I attended a demonstration in Scottsdale as part of Reason Weekend last year.  I was extremely skeptical for all the reasons people have posted here. After the general demonstration I went back and got a very detailed demonstration starting with a very small demonstration model of the principle and working up to the large engine.  I was trying to find reasons to believe it was a hoax. If it is it is a really good one, nothing like the 19th century sound wave thing that is alluded to here.  I have not seen it in a real situation powering say, a pump, with no power coming from any other source.  If it is a hoax it might be that it can't carry the load that they say it can. There was going to be the installation in Las Vegas within a week or so of our demonstration.  I haven't read all the discussion here but I am looking for proof that the installation in Vegas and another one they were supposed to be putting into a pumping site in a remote area of the north west are actually working.  I do not believe this is something to be dismissed as easily as one might think although it does fit the "too good to be true, probably is" model.

 

Offline billpennock

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2020, 04:03:51 pm »
Right because believers in individual liberty are all stupid.  Seriously?  That's your argument.
 

Offline billpennock

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2020, 04:07:35 pm »
In the demo I went to it was connected to a generator and the output was measured.
 

Offline billpennock

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2020, 04:10:10 pm »
Nice to have someone who actually looked at it comment rather than people who simple dismiss it with no investigation.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2020, 04:27:23 pm »
I think a caption in the second page of the linked WSJ's article sums it all up:

"In the other hand if the Earth Engine is an illusion, it's a spectacularly elaborate one, with no clear way of paying off."

Bold letters from the original quote.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2020, 11:50:48 pm »
The only investigation necessary is to find claims that something puts out more energy than it consumes, if that is being claimed then it is a hoax, period. I don't have to waste time digging into it, the onus of proof is on the person making extraordinary claims to offer extraordinary evidence that it works and explain how.
 

Online fourfathom

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2020, 12:58:42 am »
the onus of proof is on the person making extraordinary claims to offer extraordinary evidence that it works and explain how.

They don't even have to explain how, just prove that it works.  How hard could that be?
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Offline Circlotron

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2020, 02:52:10 am »
Unless they bought a piece of "magnetar" off ebay, with the magnetic energy density of 40 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 J/m3 .. :)
Hmm... even if you could perform nuclear fusion on 1m^3 of platinum and completely turn it in to energy (zero matter left) it would only produce 1 935 000 000 000 000 000 000 Joules. That's smaller by a factor of 20,672. As an aside, what is the shipping cost of 1m^3 of that magnetar?  :scared:
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 02:57:30 am by Circlotron »
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2020, 05:38:49 am »
I know this is late but...I attended a demonstration in Scottsdale as part of Reason Weekend last year.  I was extremely skeptical for all the reasons people have posted here. After the general demonstration I went back and got a very detailed demonstration starting with a very small demonstration model of the principle and working up to the large engine.  I was trying to find reasons to believe it was a hoax. If it is it is a really good one, nothing like the 19th century sound wave thing that is alluded to here.  I have not seen it in a real situation powering say, a pump, with no power coming from any other source.  If it is a hoax it might be that it can't carry the load that they say it can. There was going to be the installation in Las Vegas within a week or so of our demonstration.  I haven't read all the discussion here but I am looking for proof that the installation in Vegas and another one they were supposed to be putting into a pumping site in a remote area of the north west are actually working.  I do not believe this is something to be dismissed as easily as one might think although it does fit the "too good to be true, probably is" model.
Demonstrations for public are all well and good, but borderline useless as a source of data, mostly due to the fact that the demonstrator/inventor/claimer controls everything, sets up the measurements and has every possibility of cheating.

I'll believe it once it passes through a recognised, independent test organisation, such as TUV, UL or any number of serious public entities. Or even send one over to Dave. Or, you know, once it's actually on sale, as an actual product that you can buy.

And no, the 'Handing it over to one of these diabolical organisations will give away the trade secret!' is just a bullshit excuse, since the moment someone can actually buy the product it will go public anyway.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 07:24:13 am by daqq »
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Offline james_s

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2020, 06:16:40 am »
Demonstrations for public are all well and good, but borderline useless as a source of data, mostly due to the fact that the demonstrator/inventor/claimer controls everything, sets up the measurements and has every possibility of cheating.

I'll believe it once it passes through a recognised, independent test organisation, such as TUV, UL or any number of serious public entities. Or even send one over to Dave. Or, you know, once it's actually on sale, as an actual product that you can buy.

And no, the 'Handing it over to one of these diabolical organisations will give away the trade secret!' is just a bullshit excuse, since the moment someone can actually buy the product it will go public anyway.


Indeed. I once saw a man demonstrate sawing a woman in half, and afterward she climbed out of the box apparently intact. It was quite convincing, as were many of the other illusions he performed. Does that mean magic is real? Of course not, but it was a convincing demonstration none the less.

The trade secret part is always the same too as you say, of course any amazing new device is going to get a teardown on youtube the moment it is available for anyone to get their hands on.

Laws of energy aside, many of us are quick to dismiss these things because it's the same old tired routine time after time after time. You start to recognize the spiel and you know what's coming even before it is said.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2020, 06:59:39 am »
I know this is late but...I attended a demonstration in Scottsdale as part of Reason Weekend last year.  I was extremely skeptical for all the reasons people have posted here. After the general demonstration I went back and got a very detailed demonstration starting with a very small demonstration model of the principle and working up to the large engine.  I was trying to find reasons to believe it was a hoax. If it is it is a really good one, nothing like the 19th century sound wave thing that is alluded to here.  I have not seen it in a real situation powering say, a pump, with no power coming from any other source.  If it is a hoax it might be that it can't carry the load that they say it can. There was going to be the installation in Las Vegas within a week or so of our demonstration.  I haven't read all the discussion here but I am looking for proof that the installation in Vegas and another one they were supposed to be putting into a pumping site in a remote area of the north west are actually working.  I do not believe this is something to be dismissed as easily as one might think although it does fit the "too good to be true, probably is" model.

Quick google of the names here, and confirmed, both the inventor Dennis Danzik and Bill Pennock are both donors to the Reason Foundation.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/CARRYING+THE+TORCH+OF+FREEDOM.-a0625500223

Kinda reminds me of that Hapbee thing where all the people who invested in it go to the same conference:
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2020, 07:01:41 am »
The trade secret part is always the same too as you say, of course any amazing new device is going to get a teardown on youtube the moment it is available for anyone to get their hands on.

That's the thing, these things never ship. Because once they do then they get torn down and the scam is exposed.
So these project always end up in perpetual development and/or "just about to ship".
 

Offline Haenk

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Re: Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2020, 08:51:18 pm »
So these project always end up in perpetual development and/or "just about to ship".

Not to forget: Requesting even more investor money, to build a bigger, even more impressive, one.
 


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