Amazing Tesla experiments! Totally new science

[joeqsmith]

Another free energy thread? 
Why don't these people just make their working over-unity machine and sell it? They'd be instant billionaires and win a Nobel prize in physics.
https://youtu.be/47-o5iE6FM4?t=38

It's not free energy they're claiming this time. Not every Tesla nut, even if there's BS involved, is a free energy nut. We need to stop that stereotype or we're gonna end up right back here with the same problem, people not understanding basic science.

In this case they claim wizzbang "rays of energy" that "affect physical matter" because they don't understand one-wire currents or how a simple piece of foil is attracted to a highly charged surface.

Pretty much the way I see it.  The OP may have referenced some sites and videos from various scammers or nut jobs but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.   

Another free energy thread? 
Why don't these people just make their working over-unity machine and sell it? They'd be instant billionaires and win a Nobel prize in physics.

Outside of your comment, I don't think there has been any mentioned over-unity.  I've tossed out 88% top 30% using copper.   I think if Tesla had an idea of free, it meant free to the masses, not free to generate.  In the case of the OP, I think they are just trying to understand more about it.   I can certainly understand it seeming a bit amazing but it's certainly not new science.

Overunity is the holy grail of the free energy community.
Otherwise it's just regular old energy harvesting, an already well known, well researched and well practiced field of engineering.
I'm not going to waste any brain cells watching the video.

I have only looked at the parts the OP referenced and have no interest in looking at the site they originally linked.  If the OP is having problems understanding some of what is being shown, I don't mind taking the time to try and explain it.  If the OP starts trying to push ideas of over-unity and free energy, I will drop from the discussion.  So far it appears the majority of it isn't from the OP.

[Deco56]

You guys are still hung up on the free energy part. I made no claim of free energy being displayed in either video, so not sure why that is a point of contention?

Some claim it's electrostatic induction or magnetic induction. I don't see how a light bulb would create magnetic induction since it has very low inductance. The electrostatic explanation runs into a problem because of the light bulb housing I believe. If anyone can show me some "conventional, basic experiments" that show a light bulb attracting a piece of metal when being run on a single wire current, please do so. I would love to see more examples of this effect. Not of Tesla coils in general, but this effect specifically achieved through any means. I hope I don't have to explain how this IS NOT magnetic induction.

Edit: Still no comments on the Tesla quote

Edit #2: if it is indeed electrostatic induction, you should be able to find a video or reference showing the same effect of a light bulb being powered giving off this effect.

[Cyberdragon]

Although there was no free energy discussed in the videos or anything, the guys behind those experiments are free energy nuts if you dig into their backgroud.

Also, we know it's not magnetism, it's electrostatics. There is probably some magnetic effects happening but the main source of attraction is electric charge, just like static electricity. (I've also explained several times why the fact that it's alternating does not matter)

The electrostatic explanation runs into a problem because of the light bulb housing I believe. If anyone can show me some "conventional, basic experiments" that show a light bulb attracting a piece of metal when being run on a single wire current, please do so. I would love to see more examples of this effect.

Glass is a dielectric, HVAC goes right through it due to capacitance. Also, I've explained how a laymen can do this twice already, with a simple plasma globe toy and a piece of ripped off aluminum foil. I've even given voltage readings to show the charge on the foil from my 4W bulb (there are also plenty of sources and experiments to show capacitance with plasma globes, not my exact version but the same basic principals still apply). I may also write a simple experimental procedure for this since I actually have not found any documentation of this exact experiment, though anyone else feel free to make one yourself on Instructables or something.

Edit: Still no comments on the Tesla quote

I gave my theory, but no-one has confirmed or denied my reasoning so IDK.

[EEVblog]

Another free energy thread? 
Why don't these people just make their working over-unity machine and sell it? They'd be instant billionaires and win a Nobel prize in physics.
https://youtu.be/47-o5iE6FM4?t=38

It's not free energy they're claiming this time. Not every Tesla nut, even if there's BS involved, is a free energy nut. We need to stop that stereotype or we're gonna end up right back here with the same problem, people not understanding basic science.

In this case they claim wizzbang "rays of energy" that "affect physical matter" because they don't understand one-wire currents or how a simple piece of foil is attracted to a highly charged surface.

Pretty much the way I see it.  The OP may have referenced some sites and videos from various scammers or nut jobs but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.   

It's your time to waste, knock yourself out.
Most of us have realised it's a complete waste of time engaging these people or watching these experiments and trying to understand and explain it to them why it's dead end and how they are wrong.

[Cyberdragon]

Another free energy thread? 
Why don't these people just make their working over-unity machine and sell it? They'd be instant billionaires and win a Nobel prize in physics.
https://youtu.be/47-o5iE6FM4?t=38

It's not free energy they're claiming this time. Not every Tesla nut, even if there's BS involved, is a free energy nut. We need to stop that stereotype or we're gonna end up right back here with the same problem, people not understanding basic science.

In this case they claim wizzbang "rays of energy" that "affect physical matter" because they don't understand one-wire currents or how a simple piece of foil is attracted to a highly charged surface.

Pretty much the way I see it.  The OP may have referenced some sites and videos from various scammers or nut jobs but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.   

It's your time to waste, knock yourself out.
Most of us have realised it's a complete waste of time engaging these people or watching these experiments and trying to understand and explain it to them why it's dead end and how they are wrong.

Indeed, a brick wall can't hear you and will therefore never learn.

EDIT: It is sad though that it's not a well documented experiment, such a demonstration would be interesting to show in a high school physics class. Even if it's just the version with a plasma globe and not a real tesla coil.

[IanB]

Some claim it's electrostatic induction or magnetic induction. I don't see how a light bulb would create magnetic induction since it has very low inductance. The electrostatic explanation runs into a problem because of the light bulb housing I believe. If anyone can show me some "conventional, basic experiments" that show a light bulb attracting a piece of metal when being run on a single wire current, please do so. I would love to see more examples of this effect. Not of Tesla coils in general, but this effect specifically achieved through any means. I hope I don't have to explain how this IS NOT magnetic induction.

Have you tried getting a plasma ball and seeing if anything is attracted to the outside of the glass, like thin bits of foil or paper? It meets your criterion of being a glass bulb with a single wire current source at the base. You can clearly see from the attached video that glass presents no barrier at all to electrostatic induction. What's more you can easily do such experiments yourself with no expensive equipment. There's no magic, just physics.

https://youtu.be/2gttW4F86Sg

[AVGresponding]

We did use gold leaf electrometers in "high school" physics lessons.

In the UK we called it "secondary school" though.   

[Cyberdragon]

Some claim it's electrostatic induction or magnetic induction. I don't see how a light bulb would create magnetic induction since it has very low inductance. The electrostatic explanation runs into a problem because of the light bulb housing I believe. If anyone can show me some "conventional, basic experiments" that show a light bulb attracting a piece of metal when being run on a single wire current, please do so. I would love to see more examples of this effect. Not of Tesla coils in general, but this effect specifically achieved through any means. I hope I don't have to explain how this IS NOT magnetic induction.

Have you tried getting a plasma ball and seeing if anything is attracted to the outside of the glass, like thin bits of foil or paper? It meets your criterion of being a glass bulb with a single wire current source at the base. You can clearly see from the attached video that glass presents no barrier at all to electrostatic induction. What's more you can easily do such experiments yourself with no expensive equipment. There's no magic, just physics.

https://youtu.be/2gttW4F86Sg

No, he hasn't, because I've already told him to do exactly this umpteen times already...

[Deco56]

  It's your time to waste, knock yourself out.
Most of us have realised it's a complete waste of time engaging these people or watching these experiments and trying to understand and explain it to them why it's dead end and how they are wrong.

I love these types of responses because it really gives you an insight into some of the hubris people carry around. "We already know everything about electronics and electromagnetism so there is no point in looking into any experiments because there is nothing new in the Universe we already know it all." Hell of a scientific spirit there.

As for electrostatics, you can keep claiming "this is simple high school stuff" but you guys keep referencing experiments that are not even the same as those shown. One user admitted he couldn't find any references to the exact same effect (not just electrostatic in general). If it's so pre-school please find a video of the exact same effect!!! Not any general electrostatic effect.

Edit: again, this is different from a plasma ball, there are no plasma streaks touching the bulb housing. I am not claiming it cant be electrostatic, but I would love to see more experiments showing this exact effect, not a plasma ball, which I hope I don't have to explain is a different set up

[MK14]

please find a video of the exact same effect!!! Not any general electrostatic effect.

So, wait a minute.

You found some blurry/shaky, unspecified/unverified, video somewhere (from some free energy poeple), and we now have to find video showing the same, to your exactl requirements, and which includes all your possibly mistaken beliefs.

I will give a a one word, answer.

No.           

EDIT:
Needs proper scientific/engineering details (schematics, exact components used, detailed photographs, detailed text descriptions, etc etc). To create a reproducible experiment/effect, or this thread, will go round and round in circles for hundreds or thousands of posts. We will get nowhere, in a slow and painful way.
NOT Potentially/apparently biased, guesses, from someone who might not know much about things like this, blurry videos, showing the wrong things, no real details, and people who may be jumping to false conclusions.

[schmitt trigger]

I still love to call the picofarad a micro-microfarad (uuF). 

And why stop there? Please stop this gigabyte rubbish. Lets call them what they really are: kilomegabytes. 

[joeqsmith]

Another free energy thread? 
Why don't these people just make their working over-unity machine and sell it? They'd be instant billionaires and win a Nobel prize in physics.
https://youtu.be/47-o5iE6FM4?t=38

It's not free energy they're claiming this time. Not every Tesla nut, even if there's BS involved, is a free energy nut. We need to stop that stereotype or we're gonna end up right back here with the same problem, people not understanding basic science.

In this case they claim wizzbang "rays of energy" that "affect physical matter" because they don't understand one-wire currents or how a simple piece of foil is attracted to a highly charged surface.

Pretty much the way I see it.  The OP may have referenced some sites and videos from various scammers or nut jobs but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.   

It's your time to waste, knock yourself out.
Most of us have realised it's a complete waste of time engaging these people or watching these experiments and trying to understand and explain it to them why it's dead end and how they are wrong.

Judging from the several responses, I'm sure that's the case (a waste of time).  But you're running an open forum and it's not like I haven't engaged in such discussions before.  Remember krayvonk?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/my-own-original-oscillator/
If you go to his channel, he is still making videos of oscillators with LEDs.       

[joeqsmith]

...
Indeed, a brick wall can't hear you and will therefore never learn.

EDIT: It is sad though that it's not a well documented experiment, such a demonstration would be interesting to show in a high school physics class. Even if it's just the version with a plasma globe and not a real tesla coil.

For the one wire demonstration, the two ignition coils work fine.  Add some wire, foil, LED and an oscillator and you're pretty much set to go.     

Sadly, thinking back we had very few physics experiments involving electricity.  I remember most were chemical and mechanical.   I hate to say it but many of my early teachers would have known very little about it. 

[Deco56]

Set up is shown in the links posted.

  www.am-innovations.com

The guy is literally not selling anything on his site and shows you the experimental set up. "Oh but he's not a PhD who has been published in peer review journals." Stop appealing to authority, it's an experiment not a philosophy.

    For the one wire demonstration, the two ignition coils work fine.  Add some wire, foil, LED and an oscillator and you're pretty much set to go.     

Would the LED powered by such attract the foil? If not, this is not the same effect. Please watch the video carefully before suggesting experiments which are not the same as the effect shown. Plasma ball also not the same since the plasma streamers in the video do not contact the bulb housing.

[Cerebus]

Sadly, thinking back we had very few physics experiments involving electricity.  I remember most were chemical and mechanical.   I hate to say it but many of my early teachers would have known very little about it.

We had plenty of electrical/electrostatics experiments. One of my physics teachers delighted in using the whole class (minus one) holding hands as a distributed capacitor, charged us with a Wimshurst Machine and then discharged us via the remaining member of the class grasping a grounded radiator pipe (One Mr Hannigan, if memory serves, who always seemed to be picked as a victim by the teachers.)

[schmitt trigger]

It reminds me of that famous Pink Floyd song:

"Teachers, leave us kids alone!

[Cyberdragon]

Our patience has reached 0.

This can be explained by basic scientific principals. An incandescent bulb is also filled with noble gas, which we can't see if there's any ionization at all due to their shitty video quality and external light sources. (though fair enough if it was taken with an old tape camera from the 90s). It doesn't really matter anyway because there is another large charged body in the bulb, the filament, as well as the power being alot higher from the tesla coil than any desk toy meaning this electrostatic effect will increased (allowing it to occur at greater distance and on smaller surfaces.

To be clear, I have no doubt the experiment will work as shown, however I don't believe this will help because you refuse to believe that this is based of existing scientific principals and want it to be some sort of magic-I mean "undiscovered science". So even of we were to conduct the experiment, you would probably refute the findings because you want us to find what you want, not what we would find. What we would find, is that if you connected a voltmeter to the foil is an electric charge. Why didn't they do this in the first place instead of jumping to wild conclusions? I don't know, find them and ask them yourself.

[IanB]

I love these types of responses because it really gives you an insight into some of the hubris people carry around. "We already know everything about electronics and electromagnetism so there is no point in looking into any experiments because there is nothing new in the Universe we already know it all." Hell of a scientific spirit there.

This kind of statement is silly, of course.

What is more likely?

1. An experiment cobbled together in someone's workshop using every day things has revealed some undiscovered aspect of physics that falls outside Faraday's laws of electromagnetism,

Or

2. You do not understand how to interpret what you are seeing?

This kind of thread is unenlightening for all concerned.

[Cyberdragon]

I love these types of responses because it really gives you an insight into some of the hubris people carry around. "We already know everything about electronics and electromagnetism so there is no point in looking into any experiments because there is nothing new in the Universe we already know it all." Hell of a scientific spirit there.

This kind of statement is silly, of course.

What is more likely?

1. An experiment cobbled together in someone's workshop using every day things has revealed some undiscovered aspect of physics that falls outside Faraday's laws of electromagnetism,

Or

2. You do not understand how to interpret what you are seeing?

This kind of thread is unenlightening for all concerned.

Unenlightening is an understatement...causing us to loose another small piece of faith in humanity is more like it.

TLDR

[Deco56]

Ok fine it isn't anything new. So you should be able to find similar effect somewhere? Can anyone here honestly answer if we think as a scientific community we already know all the answers? We already know everything there is to, so stop experimenting and call it a day because there's nothing new to be discovered? Is that what we are saying? Didn't they say that back in the 1900's as well?

Full breakdown of effect is given by the experimenter in his post:

     The magnitude of the force applied to the aluminium leaf increases with the input power PIN to the generator and hence ISRF in the secondary wire. The overall effect is similar to observing a magnetic metal attracted to a magnet at close range, or the effect of electrostatic attraction in the case of opposite charged metal plates spaced slightly apart. In this case however it appears that the effect is based on the electric field of induction being dominant in the scenario rather than magnetic field of induction. When a permanent magnet is introduced into the experiment it has no influence on the attraction of the aluminium leaf either in being attracted towards the bulb, away from it, or being held on the bulb surface.

The intensity of the attraction and hence the magnitude of the applied force on the leaf has been found to increase significantly with burst, impulse, and modulated waveforms. With a burst or impulse waveform from the generator it is easily seen that at PIN > 400W the leaf can be instantly attracted to the bulb and move from the vertical over distances as much as 20mm, and then held there strongly on the surface of the glass.  in this case even with the generator turned off the leaf can be retained for up to 60 seconds on the surface of the bulb before being released and swinging back to the horizontal.

Other types of leaf material have also been tested, and those found to readily be attracted and retained to the bulb glass have a conductive element to them, including metals like aluminium and copper, organic materials such as living tissue, plant matter (e.g. leaves), and paper, cardboard, and woods with a certain content of moisture in them. In the case of organic living tissue the presence of my hand in the vicinity of the light bulb, but not touching, greatly increases the effect even in CW mode. For man-made synthetic materials such as plastic and other insulating mediums there is normally no discernible attraction towards the bulb. At very high voltages and high input powers PIN > 1000W a plastic leaf was found to attracted to the bulb surface over a tiny distance < 0.5mm but could not be retained on the surface of the bulb even when placed directly on the surface.

With the aluminium leaf the voltage on the leaf was measured during the process of attraction and was found to rise to a high dc potential usually in the order of several hundred volts in the experiment thus described. This indicates a form of “charging” like the plate of a capacitor when exposed to a dc potential higher or lower than the surrounding environment. In this case the electric field of induction appears to have created a region of potential difference and tension between the material of the leaf, where the leaf has become “charged” to an opposite polarity than that present on the glass surface of the bulb. It is conjectured here that an electric wavefront (a positive dc level or impulse rather than a varying sinusoid) is emitted from the exposed wire of the bulb filament (itself a tiny extra coil and leading to an imbalance between the magnetic and electric fields of induction). These continuous wavefronts result in charge accumulation on the surface of the conductive material which establishes an electric field between the bulb filament and the conductive material. The electric field results in a force exerted on the aluminium leaf which is pulled towards the glass surface. As the conductors of the filament and the leaf are prevented to come into contact by the glass bulb the electric field is not collapsed by shorting the two together, and the leaf can be retained firmly on the glass surface as it remains “charged” by the presented wavefronts.

It is suggested that the attraction is not likely to be magnetic in nature, and as a result of eddy currents in the conductive material induced by the presence of a time varying magnetic field, as the phenomena cannot be influenced by other magnetic fields in very close vicinity, such as permanent magnets and electromagnets. It would be expected that the magnetic field generated by eddy currents in the leaf would be disturbed by the introduction of a strong permanent magnet, however no such disturbances have been observed or measured.

To eliminate effects due to convection and movement of air due to heating of the glass bulb a control experiment connected the same bulb type, a 240V 25W pygmy bulb, to a normal domestic ac outlet so that it would light to normal intensity and heating. The aluminium leaf was then placed in very close proximity to the bulb surface ~ 0.5mm with no discernible movement towards the bulb over any length of time the control experiment was conducted.   

Nothing new here....we already know everything. 

Sure you can call it an electrostatic effect fine, but isnt it interesting? If not please share more videos or references of these exact effects.  More importantly than the conclusion of the experiment is the question I posed at the top. Do we already know everything there is to no about electricity and electromagnetism?

[joeqsmith]

Our patience has reached 0.
...

What we would find, is that if you connected a voltmeter to the foil is an electric charge. Why didn't they do this in the first place instead of jumping to wild conclusions? I don't know, find them and ask them yourself.

If they use UNI-T, the meter may not read anything, ever again.   I base this on my own experiments.   

[BU508A]

  It's your time to waste, knock yourself out.
Most of us have realised it's a complete waste of time engaging these people or watching these experiments and trying to understand and explain it to them why it's dead end and how they are wrong.

I love these types of responses because it really gives you an insight into some of the hubris people carry around. "We already know everything about electronics and electromagnetism so there is no point in looking into any experiments because there is nothing new in the Universe we already know it all." Hell of a scientific spirit there.

This statement proofs, that you don't have a clue about science, how it is working and why scepticism is a good thing. I don't a believe in a silly YT video,
that shows  that someone has pushed the boundries of physics using some all-day stuff.
Pushing boundries in physics happens these days in machines, which can create and handle energies in the TeV range, for example in the CERN.
So, do yourself a favour, study physics and try to understand, what is going on and don't make out of yourself another Dunning-Kruger fool.

[Cyberdragon]

Our patience has reached 0.
...

What we would find, is that if you connected a voltmeter to the foil is an electric charge. Why didn't they do this in the first place instead of jumping to wild conclusions? I don't know, find them and ask them yourself.

If they use UNI-T, the meter may not read anything, ever again.   I base this on my own experiments.   

Yeah, if you do conduct this experiment, it would probably be wise to use a high voltage meter/voltage dropping probe. A VTVM would probably also survive (not good good for it, but would likely survive), but you could again use a voltage dropping probe. You could also use a scope with an HV differential probe, so even if if the probe unit blows up hopefully the scope survives.

[Deco56]

So if we don't have access to CERN we won't find anything new or interesting. Cool.

[Cyberdragon]

  It's your time to waste, knock yourself out.
Most of us have realised it's a complete waste of time engaging these people or watching these experiments and trying to understand and explain it to them why it's dead end and how they are wrong.

I love these types of responses because it really gives you an insight into some of the hubris people carry around. "We already know everything about electronics and electromagnetism so there is no point in looking into any experiments because there is nothing new in the Universe we already know it all." Hell of a scientific spirit there.

This statement proofs, that you don't have a clue about science, how it is working and why scepticism is a good thing. I don't a believe in a silly YT video,
that shows  that someone has pushed the boundries of physics using some all-day stuff.
Pushing boundries in physics happens these days in machines, which can create and handle energies in the TeV range, for example in the CERN.
So, do yourself a favour, study physics and try to understand, what is going on and don't make out of yourself another Dunning-Kruger fool.

Yep, high-confidence, low experience. He's the kid in class who claims they're smarter then the teacher when they actually got the answer wrong and never payed attention to the lectures or read the textbook.

Do we know every scientific fact? Of course not. We don't know what happens if you enter a black hole (besides just die). Is there alien life? Do wormholes exist? We don't know.

Do we know all about electrostatics because they've been studied for over two centuries way back to Benjamin Franklin?

YES
Also, one of the fundamental principals of the scientific method is that if you hypothesis is incorrect or another unforseen factor occurred is to try and explain it using existing scientific pricipals. Only when all other possibilities have been exhasted can you consider a new discovery and new theory. To the rest of us who paid attention in science class, it's a damn piece of foil being electrically attracted to highly charged body. Just because YOU don't understand it, does not mean it can't be adequitly explained.