Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?

[firewalker]

Let's kick start a campaign. Just to collect money for a lawyers! 

Alexander.

[edavid]

I am no lawyer (thankfully!) but I think they could be likely successfully sued under "negligent fraud" - meaning if you make statements that you either know to be false, or (more importantly) should have known to be false... you're liable. 

A good lawyer would be able to dissect their original pitch and all the claims and statements they made that encouraged people to invest because they were going to make this happen, and show that they were in over their heads and failed to communicate that at the beginning or as they realized it going forward.

The bigger problem would be that they got $280k... but it's 1.5 years since they got that money.  It would be easy for a single person to burn through $280k on a development project like this inclusive of that person's salary... but with multiple people on the project?  I bet the money is all gone and there's nothing left for people to recover, even if they won a lawsuit.

If they committed fraud, can't you go after their personal assets?  Also, I think a lawyer would go after IGG on this one...  there must have been quite a few people who notified them it was a fraud, and they clearly failed to enforce their own rules.

[Corporate666]

I am no lawyer (thankfully!) but I think they could be likely successfully sued under "negligent fraud" - meaning if you make statements that you either know to be false, or (more importantly) should have known to be false... you're liable. 

A good lawyer would be able to dissect their original pitch and all the claims and statements they made that encouraged people to invest because they were going to make this happen, and show that they were in over their heads and failed to communicate that at the beginning or as they realized it going forward.

The bigger problem would be that they got $280k... but it's 1.5 years since they got that money.  It would be easy for a single person to burn through $280k on a development project like this inclusive of that person's salary... but with multiple people on the project?  I bet the money is all gone and there's nothing left for people to recover, even if they won a lawsuit.

If they committed fraud, can't you go after their personal assets?  Also, I think a lawyer would go after IGG on this one...  there must have been quite a few people who notified them it was a fraud, and they clearly failed to enforce their own rules.

If the business was formed to embark on a fraudulent cause, the owners personal assets are fair game - although I think that refers more to stuff like... starting a business selling gold mining plots in an area with no gold, but claiming potential riches to the suckers you sell the plots to.  I am not sure if the Mu thing would qualify as a fraudulent business.  But I bet they haven't kept the Mu Optics business separate from their effects business, so I can absolutely see all their business assets being fair game.

I wonder if the McGraths read this site and thread?  If they do, then why do they treat their backers in such a shitty way?  These are real, honest, hard working people who took a leap of faith based on your word.  The least you could do would be to tell them the truth about what's going on, or what's not going on.  It's like stringing a girl along thinking you're interested in her when you aren't at all... at least let her know it's over so she can move on.


I am absolutely shocked that no lawyers have gone after IGG or KS.  Maybe they have... it would seem to be ripe for scams and abuse.  There are multiple IGG projects (and KS ones) that just flopped.  And KS/IGG are well funded multi-million dollar companies.  It would be a fat payday for an attorney with experience in class action suits.

[CanadianAvenger]

Charging them with? Conspiracy to commit fraud?

As long as they tried (probably no matter how superficial), and didn't lie in their updates, there is nothing illegal about being grossly incompetent.

But let's not forget they used thermal images from a commercial unit without stating it, to get the money. [they did ultimately admit it in the comments, after being called out, but none of their collateral text was corrected to reflect it - and it's probably pretty safe to assume not all backers followed along in the comments, the admission was never made in an official update -- timeline wise, it may alos have been after the campaign closed, but I do not remember, and comment history does not go that far back]

[David]

Not sure if anyone has seen this before? Perhaps someone could contact them and ask if they ever saw any hardware?!

http://if-chicago.com/portfolio/mu-optics/

Dave

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi,

A recent comment on the Mu IGG campaign points to:


http://sqipptheline.com/


Three of the four members of the Mu optics team are working on this project.

This software helps you save time by not having to wait in line. I wonder if it will help people get their Mu Optics refunds without delay?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[EEVblog]

I am absolutely shocked that no lawyers have gone after IGG or KS.  Maybe they have... it would seem to be ripe for scams and abuse.  There are multiple IGG projects (and KS ones) that just flopped.  And KS/IGG are well funded multi-million dollar companies.  It would be a fat payday for an attorney with experience in class action suits.

But ultimately it's not IGG who have anything to do with delivery of this project. So I'd imagine it kind of hard to sue IGG to get back money for a project that is not their responsibility to deliver.
IGG did their job of facilitating the transaction, and apparently (if the comments are correct) did pressure Mu into releasing a recent update.
So ultimately I can't see how IGG could could get touched for cases like this.

[edavid]

But ultimately it's not IGG who have anything to do with delivery of this project. So I'd imagine it kind of hard to sue IGG to get back money for a project that is not their responsibility to deliver.
IGG did their job of facilitating the transaction, and apparently (if the comments are correct) did pressure Mu into releasing a recent update.
So ultimately I can't see how IGG could could get touched for cases like this.

The funders relied on IGG to enforce its own published rules.  If IGG did not do so (does anyone think they did?), they could well be liable.

Another issue is that if a substantial number of people notified IGG that the project was fraudulent, they had a duty to investigate, disclaimer or no disclaimer.  It's not legal to turn a blind eye to fraud (cf. Madoff case).

[PlainName]

they had a duty to investigate

If they did, surely that only applied during the funding round. After funding has completed they have no teeth and their job is done anyway.

[EEVblog]

Another issue is that if a substantial number of people notified IGG that the project was fraudulent, they had a duty to investigate, disclaimer or no disclaimer.  It's not legal to turn a blind eye to fraud (cf. Madoff case).

And just how would they investigate for that?
Mu just has to say "sorry, NDA", we'll release info when we are good and ready, and that's that. Nothing short of a court order would legally obligate Mu to release any info, and without the info, you have no evidence, and without any real evidence you have to take their word for it.
Just because a few people out of thousands might scream "fraud" or whatever does not make it so.

Not to mention, how many complaints would they get on a daily bases across all their projects?

[BMac]

Check this out !

http://www.hemaimaging.com/

BMac

[edavid]

Another issue is that if a substantial number of people notified IGG that the project was fraudulent, they had a duty to investigate, disclaimer or no disclaimer.  It's not legal to turn a blind eye to fraud (cf. Madoff case).

And just how would they investigate for that?

Lots of ways.  They could request images from the prototype.  They could request proof that all questions from backers were answered, or that all refunds were issued.  They could set a deadline for posting an update.  Or they could just put the burden on Mu:  prove that you are not fraudulent.

Mu just has to say "sorry, NDA", we'll release info when we are good and ready, and that's that. Nothing short of a court order would legally obligate Mu to release any info, and without the info, you have no evidence, and without any real evidence you have to take their word for it.

I'm not sure about that, it depends on the details of the contract.  However, continuing with the hypothetical, if IGG had reason to suspect fraud, and Mu did not refute it, it would be IGG's duty to at least pull the project page and refund their commissions.  It's not legal to benefit from someone else's fraud.

Just because a few people out of thousands might scream "fraud" or whatever does not make it so.

What if it came out in discovery that 100 people had written to IGG saying it was fraudulent?   As I said, they would have had a duty to investigate.

Not to mention, how many complaints would they get on a daily bases across all their projects?

If I were suing Mu, I would definitely request that information from IGG in discovery.   (And if it came out that people are constantly complaining to them about fraudulent projects, I'm not sure it would really help their position.)

[Rasz]

IGG had actual 'we will check for frauds' clause in their terms of service, they removed it after Pando started covering Haelbo scam.

[Refrigerator]

HemaImager seems like the real thing, i bet that after a week after it comes out there will already be chinese clones flooding the market.

[mikeselectricstuff]

HemaImager seems like the real thing, i bet that after a week after it comes out there will already be chinese clones flooding the market.

No there won't - if the Chinese could make cheap thermal imagers they would be selling them already.

[EEVblog]

Lots of ways.  They could request images from the prototype. 

Three letters - NDA. If Mu couldn't show the backers and their excuse was NDA, why would they show IGG?

They could request proof that all questions from backers were answered, or that all refunds were issued.

AFAIK all requested refunds were issued in due course. This helps Mu's case greatly in IGG's eyes I'm sure.

They could set a deadline for posting an update. 

It sees they did, and that is rumored why Mu gave the last hurried update.

Or they could just put the burden on Mu:  prove that you are not fraudulent.

Err, sorry, no, that's not the way it works. Innocent until proven guilty.
Once again, you can't go and suspect fraud just because a very small percentage of backers claim that. You need some very good evidence.

I'm not sure about that, it depends on the details of the contract.  However, continuing with the hypothetical, if IGG had reason to suspect fraud, and Mu did not refute it, it would be IGG's duty to at least pull the project page and refund their commissions.

Sure, but because IGG never ever say anything, you don't know what goes on behind the scenes. Perhaps they asked some question and were satisfied? You just don't know.

What if it came out in discovery that 100 people had written to IGG saying it was fraudulent?   As I said, they would have had a duty to investigate.

Sure, but it's hugely more likely that it's only a few people. Because a) Apathy, b) They want to believe the dream, and c) they don't want to admit they were duped.

[coppice]

HemaImager seems like the real thing, i bet that after a week after it comes out there will already be chinese clones flooding the market.

No there won't - if the Chinese could make cheap thermal imagers they would be selling them already.

Uni-T makes devices comparable to the Fluke VT-02 for a similar price to the VT-02, now the price of the VT-02 has dropped below $500. They say the Mu will be $325, and it does less, as it relies on a phone for the UI. That puts in it in the ballpark of what Uni-T can do today, so I would say the Chinese will definitely be making devices priced like the Mu the day after it launches. :-)

[mikeselectricstuff]

HemaImager seems like the real thing, i bet that after a week after it comes out there will already be chinese clones flooding the market.

No there won't - if the Chinese could make cheap thermal imagers they would be selling them already.

Uni-T makes devices comparable to the Fluke VT-02 for a similar price to the VT-02, now the price of the VT-02 has dropped below $500. They say the Mu will be $325, and it does less, as it relies on a phone for the UI. That puts in it in the ballpark of what Uni-T can do today, so I would say the Chinese will definitely be making devices priced like the Mu the day after it launches. :-)

VT-02 is ISTR 15x15 resolution - more a glorified Ir camera than a thermal imager.
Mu isn't ever going to happen so waste of time talking about it.
There are very few manufacturers of the sensors and optics - if a cheap decent-resolution sensor existed, it would be in products now. 
 Flir Lepton and the Heinmann thermopile are the only contenders at the moment that actually exist.
there may be more in the works, and we'll see them in products just as soon as they become available
 

[edavid]

<Dave contradicts everything I said>

I think we got lost in the details, but the big picture of what I was trying to say was that someone suing Mu for fraud would be able to involve IGG, because IGG profited from the fraud.  Again, look at the Madoff case.

Now we just need the Irving Picard of crowdfunding...

[coppice]

HemaImager seems like the real thing, i bet that after a week after it comes out there will already be chinese clones flooding the market.

No there won't - if the Chinese could make cheap thermal imagers they would be selling them already.

Uni-T makes devices comparable to the Fluke VT-02 for a similar price to the VT-02, now the price of the VT-02 has dropped below $500. They say the Mu will be $325, and it does less, as it relies on a phone for the UI. That puts in it in the ballpark of what Uni-T can do today, so I would say the Chinese will definitely be making devices priced like the Mu the day after it launches. :-)

VT-02 is ISTR 15x15 resolution - more a glorified Ir camera than a thermal imager.
Mu isn't ever going to happen so waste of time talking about it.
There are very few manufacturers of the sensors and optics - if a cheap decent-resolution sensor existed, it would be in products now. 
 Flir Lepton and the Heinmann thermopile are the only contenders at the moment that actually exist.
there may be more in the works, and we'll see them in products just as soon as they become available

I knew the VT-02 wasn't very high resolution, but I didn't realise it was that low. There is no mention of actual resolution in the spec. The cheapest Uni-T is 60x80 pixels, which is more respectable.

The big farce with the videos for Mu is they say the big savings they achieves are from the UI stuff being handled by your phone, while the big cost is in the image capture itself.

Its years since I worked on thermal imaging, but back in the 80s the lens was by far the dominant component. The sensors were a small part of the total bill. We focussed on the 20 to 30 micro band, but you need similar lenses for the 7 to 15 micron band that most of these thermal imagers work at. Has there been a massive reduction in lens prices if the sensor cost is now the key focus. Also, what happened to all the low cost mechanically scanned thermal imagers? I don't see them around any more.

[zapta]

IGG had actual 'we will check for frauds' clause in their terms of service, they removed it after Pando started covering Haelbo scam.

Just read it, they use the term 'scampaign'. Cute.

[EEVblog]

I think we got lost in the details, but the big picture of what I was trying to say was that someone suing Mu for fraud would be able to involve IGG, because IGG profited from the fraud.

Of course any case could involve IGG. But until such time as someone does sue, IGG don't have to do squat, and they know it.
I suspect IGG are not entirely stupid, they would have lawyers advising them on this stuff in general. And in the case of Mu, hey, Mu are giving refunds, that's a pretty darn good defense for IGG I suspect. How could IGG be reasonably expected to suspect there is any fraud happening in any campaign when a company gives refunds when requested?

[EEVblog]

I knew the VT-02 wasn't very high resolution, but I didn't realise it was that low. There is no mention of actual resolution in the spec. The cheapest Uni-T is 60x80 pixels, which is more respectable.

Yes, the Fluke VT-02 absolutely horrendous as thermal imaging camera, bordering on useless, I've used tried it. That's why they call it a "visual thermometer"

[firewalker]

Should we assign to someone to release monthly updates for this project? I kinda miss their updates.

Alexander.

[FrankBuss]

I knew the VT-02 wasn't very high resolution, but I didn't realise it was that low. There is no mention of actual resolution in the spec. The cheapest Uni-T is 60x80 pixels, which is more respectable.

Yes, the Fluke VT-02 absolutely horrendous as thermal imaging camera, bordering on useless, I've used tried it. That's why they call it a "visual thermometer"

At least it is better than an IR thermometer, which samples just one point, so you don't miss the hot spots. Example: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/diy-bitcoin-miner-for-avalon-a3255-q48-chips/msg388811/#msg388811