Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?

[echen1024]

<= sucker

I bought into it.  I figured they had a line on some new Chinese solid state IR imager on the cheap.  And well...Flir One proved that I was probably right.

Regardless...I know my money is down the drain.  Yes, I demanded a refund.  No I didn't get it.

I still receive those idiotic status updates.  We all know that you can display various aspects of development while still retaining intellectual property secrecy.  But so what?  If that device were actually real and shipped, it would be torn apart in about 24 hours and dissected by a pro (probably right here).  The "secret" wouldn't be much of a secret before long.

Only an idiot wouldn't know that.  Or a con man.

Demand with your credit card company. I ordered a Butterfly Labs coin miner, and that's how I got my money back.

[Corporate666]

<= sucker

I bought into it. I figured they had a line on some new Chinese solid state IR imager on the cheap.  And well...Flir One proved that I was probably right.

Regardless...I know my money is down the drain.  Yes, I demanded a refund.  No I didn't get it.

I still receive those idiotic status updates.  We all know that you can display various aspects of development while still retaining intellectual property secrecy.  But so what?  If that device were actually real and shipped, it would be torn apart in about 24 hours and dissected by a pro (probably right here).  The "secret" wouldn't be much of a secret before long.

Only an idiot wouldn't know that.  Or a con man.

FLIR makes their own sensors... so I don't think the existence of the FLIR One proves any Chinese manufacturer brought a cheap sensor to market.  I am not sure if FLIR will sell their sensors in bulk to companies like Mu, but even if they did, I believe the claimed resolution by Mu would mean they were using a higher end sensor than the bottom of the line FLIR.

Mu's constant excuses about IP and NDA's make no sense at all.  There is nothing at all stopping them from showing a thermal image.  I think they only posted the PCB previously because IGG probably told them they need to abide by the terms they agreed to.  Although, at this point, Mu has the $$ from IGG, so I am not sure what IGG can even do. 

Out of curiosity, when did you request a refund?  And did you hear back from them and they just haven't fulfilled their promise, or they just ignored you?  Sorry to hear about it, either way.

[tom66]

I still don't know what the end game is. They could have stopped posting ages ago and just kept the money. But nope... they keep posting. Really not sure what to make of it, it's quite fascinating, must feel bad for the backers though.

[Rasz]

I still don't know what the end game is. They could have stopped posting ages ago and just kept the money. But nope... they keep posting. Really not sure what to make of it, it's quite fascinating, must feel bad for the backers though.

at this point it seems the end game is same as moller flying car, minus actual almost working prototype

[mikeselectricstuff]

FLIR makes their own sensors...

They have also bought at least one sensor manufacturer (ULIS)

so I don't think the existence of the FLIR One proves any Chinese manufacturer brought a cheap sensor to market.  I am not sure if FLIR will sell their sensors in bulk to companies like Mu, but even if they did, I believe the claimed resolution by Mu would mean they were using a higher end sensor than the bottom of the line FLIR.

FYI the Flir Lepton sensor used in the Flir One is currently priced at $250 with a MOQ of 1000. Of course I'm sure this can get a lot lower with sufficient volume.
Of course this has lower framerate & reslution than what mu were aiming for.

[Hypernova]

<= sucker

I bought into it.  I figured they had a line on some new Chinese solid state IR imager on the cheap.  And well...Flir One proved that I was probably right.

Regardless...I know my money is down the drain.  Yes, I demanded a refund.  No I didn't get it.

I still receive those idiotic status updates.  We all know that you can display various aspects of development while still retaining intellectual property secrecy.  But so what?  If that device were actually real and shipped, it would be torn apart in about 24 hours and dissected by a pro (probably right here).  The "secret" wouldn't be much of a secret before long.

Only an idiot wouldn't know that.  Or a con man.

Last time I checked a 160x140 60Hz model from Dali sells for about $1600, if that's the lowest the chinese got at this stage in their development you know Mu's price is impossible.

[JuKu]

We achieved “First Heat” with this new sensor using our production electronics.

We got a sensor, hooked it up and it burned up.

[EEVblog]

Last time I checked a 160x140 60Hz model from Dali sells for about $1600, if that's the lowest the chinese got at this stage in their development you know Mu's price is impossible.

Anyone with any clue has been saying that from day one this was bought up. It was also confirmed on here by someone who owns a real thermal imager camera company that develops their own products, it was simply impossible.
I think though that Mu are claiming they are using the sensor in some unique way, but they have also always claimed it's microbolometer design, so based on that it still seems impossible.

[Fraser]

As Dave has stated, those of us who have been involved with TIC's for many years could not see how the hermal sensor and optics package could be purchased at teh prices needed to produce teh Mu at the stated price.

The innovative use of a sensor that was stated as already being generally available caught my interest. This infrerred that the sensor technology was already available for us to see, yet Mu would not disclose any details. I was considering whether they were using a cheap pyrometer such as used in PIR sensors or IR thermometers combined with a scanning assembly. Such a design would be mimicking the early scanning thermal cameras that AGEMA produced (870 and 880). Basically a single pixel thermal sensor, or low resolution array, has a set of horizontal and vertical mirrors in front of it presenting the sensor with a scanned view of the scene. Such systems are very mechanical in nature and the sensor must have a response time that can cope with the scanning rate. As the project progressed there seemed no evidence that the Mu would be a galvanometer driven scanning mirror design. That was the only way that I could see the camera becoming a reality at the price point stated.

I would dearly love to see the original concept paper that lead to Mu starting this project. I have not excluded the possibility that they actually thought that a broad spectrum IR sensitive CCD sensor would function as a cheap thermal image sensor.....they do, if the target temperature is above 400 degrees Celcius 

[andtfoot]

I would dearly love to see the original concept paper that lead to Mu starting this project. I have not excluded the possibility that they actually thought that a broad spectrum IR sensitive CCD sensor would function as a cheap thermal image sensor.....they do, if the target temperature is above 400 degrees Celcius 

I wonder if there was something along the line of:
"My normal camera can take photos of IR light from IR LEDs (e.g. remote controls). Heat emits IR. Therefore I can use a normal camera as a thermal imager."

[EEVblog]

The innovative use of a sensor that was stated as already being generally available caught my interest. This infrerred that the sensor technology was already available for us to see, yet Mu would not disclose any details. I was considering whether they were using a cheap pyrometer such as used in PIR sensors or IR thermometers combined with a scanning assembly.

They said this 9 months ago in an update:

Sensor -
We are using a 160×120 Microbolometer for infrared sensing. I’m sure most of you know what these sensors are, but here is the down and dirty wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbolometer

This is the very first update posted, but I thought they had more before that? have updates been deleted or removed by IGG?

[CanadianAvenger]

yeah it looks like IGG or Mu removed the history before that point. I probably have a bunch more in mt email, but I'd still be missing the first few, as I contributed fairly late.

[Legit-Design]

I still remember one of the first updates "Thanks to everyone contributing, I cant wait to drive my new tesla electric car" -John McGrath  And yes, it actually said something like that.  I'm really surprised that was removed, wonder why? 

[dext0rb]

Can anybody name the CM "just outside of Chicago" they are using?

[iceisfun]

Smoke, Mirrors and More!
nullptr Snakeoil Drive
Chicago, IL

[CanadianAvenger]

The first update I have came rather prophetically on April 1'st

Hello everyone,

We wanted to thank you for your contributions and continued support in our effort to get a great product out to you as soon as possible! Attached is a personal message from John.

(Apologies for the time it took to get this video to you. There have been hiccups with our Vimeo Plus account. For some reason or another Vimeo has not been processing our videos in a timely manner!)

[the campaign ended on Mar 30 11:59pm - so already one day in we were getting excuses ]

[FrankBuss]

They mixed up the video when they started the campaign. This is the right one:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/best-(non)kickstarter-ever!/

 

[FrankenPC]

I'm going to remain positive about this experience.  I lost $150 to Mu-holes.  But I gained an awesome hacked thermal E4 imager thanks to EEVBLOG.  You win some, you lose some. 

[jancumps]

Ask the money back.

update: Ah, I missed that you're the one who told you didn't get refunded.

[CanadianAvenger]

Is the E4 still hackable, or did they plug that hole?

[mrflibble]

Is the E4 still hackable, or did they plug that hole?

AFAIK:
- plugged
- unplugged

... in that order.

[CanadianAvenger]

Cool, I've been debating geting an E4 [based on that it was hacked for higher performance] but started weighing against it figuring that the hole was plugged.

[EEVblog]

yeah it looks like IGG or Mu removed the history before that point. I probably have a bunch more in mt email, but I'd still be missing the first few, as I contributed fairly late.

If anyone has the original updates then it would be wise to post them here for the record. This whole being able to delete updates thing is just horrible. It's the only thing these poor backers have as a record of anything.

[FrankenPC]

I dug through my online email system and didn't really find anything RE: deleted posts.   I  found this funny one from 3/14/13:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is the email I sent to the original poster of the link to the hackaday site. I took down his comment only after receiving his permission to do so.

Hello,

I’m responding to you through email because of IndieGoGo’s 500 word limitations.

I’m aware of Hackaday’s discourse concerning our camera accessory. I have a healthy respect for spirited discourse but can only defend myself and our company within the limitations of a competitive marketplace. We’re not building a one-off here, we’re attempting to build a company and that requires a certain amount of corporate discretion as we attempt to bring a product to the mass market.

Every industry experiences a tipping point in which, what was beyond the financial reach of the average person became affordable; either through technical advances, or the economics of supply and demand. I can say that our approach to this business is based on both realities.

I don’t think there can be any doubt that there exists a tremendous mass market for quality thermal imaging cameras. I believe we have the plan to address that market. I cannot, and will not, for the sake of discourse with knowledgable and intelligent technophiles whom have my respect, lift my skirt, show my hand, or simply share beyond what I should until it’s right for our company. I hope you can understand that.

The world is full of doubters, all I can do is work hard and make sure our product comes to market. I know that I have certain obligations to the IndieGoGo community to share information, but I also believe that they want us to be successful as a going concern. I have every intent upon sharing what I can at the appropriate time. It’s a very competitive world out there; I want to give my company every chance to succeed and sharing too much information just helps my competitors.

I know I leave you without specifics, but I hope my reply gives you some comfort that we’re in this to win. I’m leaving your comment up, though if you gave me permission, I’d take it down as it directs people to a place that can be a bit wild at times.

With respects,
John McGrath

[FrankenPC]

Found this one from 4/22/13
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Everyone,

After a very long weekend of near round-the-clock work we’re very close to presenting our camera and the images that result. What most all of you are wanting to see is coming up quickly. Much of the software is complete, it’s been the hardware that has been the beast for us. Image quality is of utmost importance to us and much of that work is on the hardware side.

We are still evaluating the USB and Wifi scenarios and have not made a decision. That will be coming soon.

I am working towards finalizing the parts suppliers and the assembly team and most importantly to all of you, the schedule for production. I’ll let you know as soon as I’m confident of a firm timeframe. We’re still six weeks out from our original timeframe of late May.

Thank you all that have been patient with our development process. Enjoy your week.

John McGrath