Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?

[MacAttak]

Hmm. I had noticed that post earlier today too. Haven't seen them do that before.

[CanadianAvenger]

They are also deleting all comments older than a certain date. At first I thought this was a limitation of IGG, that it only sowed comments for the last 30 days, but now the Mu history goes back 2 months... and after looking at a few other projects, they go all the way back to day 1, so Mu is definitely removing old comments. [and some of that history would have been useful in building a legal case against them] So add that as another data point for the "scam" column.

[EEVblog]

They are also deleting all comments older than a certain date. At first I thought this was a limitation of IGG, that it only sowed comments for the last 30 days, but now the Mu history goes back 2 months... and after looking at a few other projects, they go all the way back to day 1, so Mu is definitely removing old comments. [and some of that history would have been useful in building a legal case against them] So add that as another data point for the "scam" column.

I thought it was the last 1000 posts?, and not based on date?

[CanadianAvenger]

hmm, I don't think so. Comment counter says 1283, and I don't think that number gets adjusted... in which case we should be able to see everything from nearly day one.  Also seems odd, that the oldest post I can see is the same one I saw about a month ago [IIRC] - almost as-if they have not culled the posts for the month yet. But I do admit that I do not know for sure, so it may be a 1000 post limit. Also as I said it does not appear to be that way on a few other projects... but I'll look again and try to see if it caps at 1000 for those ones too.

[MacAttak]

I'm somewhat certain that I've seen that total number of comments fluctuate - it would seemingly drop or add a few, but when I go to look at the recent comments there was nothing new there.

Not 100% sure though (other than that one comment that was deleted this week that is known for sure).

[BulletMagnet83]

Out of curiosity, how hard is it to get hold of a low-ish resolution IR microbolometer? I can find plenty of information on them (and a retailer I'm friendly with is attempting to get samples of an 80x80 unit), but I can't seem to find them for sale.

I think it'd be fun to have one in the parts box, just to see who can get a real image out of it first, me or Mu! I know things are often a lot harder in practice than they appear from datasheet diving, but assuming one HAD the sensor, and an appropriate read-out circuit (if it isn't already built into the sensor) interfaced to a suitable microcontroller, I have to wonder.... how hard can it be, seriously?

I very nearly backed this project when I first read about it, but the more I read, the more I want to just buy the parts and see what I can do in the same time-frame. Mu clearly have no idea what they're doing and neither do I, which makes it a fair challenge.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Out of curiosity, how hard is it to get hold of a low-ish resolution IR microbolometer? I can find plenty of information on them (and a retailer I'm friendly with is attempting to get samples of an 80x80 unit), but I can't seem to find them for sale.

Very hard. Manufacturers aren't interested in anyone not looking to buy thousands. They are also export controlled, which adds additional complications.  Highest res ones that are obtainable are 16x4 from Melexis and 8x8 from Panasonic (Latter only easily obtainable in US)

[BulletMagnet83]

Ahh I thought as much. But then how did Mu get one to play with (unless they didn't)? In the course of my web-searching I found a few that were supposedly intended for civilian applications in consumer goods, but even those had a higher resolution than -  and very similar spec to - the sensor used in the Javelin anti-tank missile! I did find a Turkish company, Mikrosens, that had evaluation kits on their site but no price, which I take to either mean they're not for general sale, or if I have to ask I can't afford it (probably both true!). I've struggled even to find a complete technical datasheet for the parts, only coming up with bullshit marketing ones that I don't much care for.

Even if I hadn't read this entire thread, and all the comments on the IGG page, the sheer number of roadblocks being thrown up to someone like myself who might think "This is pretty cool, I want to play with it" is more than enough to make me think it's never going to happen.

Guess I'll just have to keep an eye on ebay for a banged-up spares or repairs unit like you, eh Mike? 

[MacAttak]

New update:

Charles McGrath posted an announcement less than a minute ago
To all of our supporters,

Just as so many technology and software teams find themselves missing well-intentioned timelines, so too has the MuOptics development team.

When this project became an IndieGoGo campaign, we knew that we could put together a thermal imaging camera, and we had a plan to make a quality imager at a price that would allow for the democratization of thermography. Unfortunately, this project, just like any new venture, came with unanticipated hurdles. For those of you who have never run a hardware/software design and development project…this is a good read.

http://www.quora.com/Engineering-Management/Why...

Regretfully, the person who first estimated the ship date is not an engineer or a programmer. The non-engineer is now just working with our suppliers, assemblers, and shippers and allowing the engineers to just get the work done. That said, we’re getting close.

As we worked to reduce and refine the construction of our own camera core; code issues, compatibility problems, and politics continued to arise. All of these problems have thus far proven to be conquerable. The development team has dutifully worked to overcome these hurdles and are getting closer by the day to producing the final release version of the Thermal Imager.

We are impossibly excited to have the opportunity to produce a quality product at an as-of-yet unheard of price.

We thank all of you for your continued support and we promise to publish a new shipping date as soon as we are able.

We’re posting some images of one of our recent prototype boards and of the team working.

Sincerely,
-MuOptics

I took the liberty of rehosting the image that was posted of the "prototype board", since I know they've been sneaky in the past and modified images after first posting them.

[notzippy]

"Yup don't worry your face won't be in the picture" 

They should fire said engineer which is in theory "Abe Burleigh" since he is the only engineer listed

nz

[BulletMagnet83]

To be fair, I could take that exact same picture with random stuff from the parts box... And I'm no engineer! If I was funding it, this would do nothing but give me backer's blueballs.

[mikeselectricstuff]

If that really is a recent proto they still look miles away from a real product - big connectors, huge and ugly lens holder...

[tom66]

Well, it at least looks vaguely like a camera of some sort. Hard to make anything out on that board, the lens could just be stuck on.

[EEVblog]

I took the liberty of rehosting the image that was posted of the "prototype board", since I know they've been sneaky in the past and modified images after first posting them.

Well at least the backers have a photo of something now.
What that something is is still very unclear. My first thought was that it looked like a commercial demo board?
I see no major SMD components on the top of the board, so unless they are on the bottom, it appears to be just a holder/breakout/demo board for the sensor itself.
The standard mounting posts in the corner and the huge header and big slider switch(?) have all the hallmark of classic demo board arrangement.
Can anyone ID the blue box with ribbon cable?
What about the real board, even an early proto? They have implied they had at least one of those IIRC.
They said "boards", plural. Where are the others?
If that is the best prototype board they have then they are clearly a long way off production. So far off that it would be crazy for them to give a date.
Still no thermal image!
Still no photo of any housing even though they are supposed to have one according to that 3D company that worked with them.

[Fraser]

As Dave says, that looks like an evaluation kit for an optical sensor of some description. The raw data is passing out to the blue box that has been deliberately inverted to prevent identification. If I went to a TIC sensor manufacturer with $200K on offer I bet I could charm such a unit out of them as well. It would not be cheap though. The picture proves nothing and the sight of an elderly Tektronix scope showing a single square wave does not inspire confidence either ! 

Used FLIR I series TICs are coming down in price fast....better to buy such a used unit than wait for mu.

$1000 buys a new i3 60x60 from the USA.

[ataradov]

The blue box is Atmel SAM-ICE - ARM JTAG debugger.

[EEVblog]

The blue box is Atmel SAM-ICE - ARM JTAG debugger.

Well spotted.
It does seem to match up:

That also matches up with their claimed use of the Atmel SAM ARM processor, so if the shown setup is a legit prototype platform, there must be the processor on the board there somewhere even though it doesn't look like it. There hence must also the external ADC on there as well they claim to be using.
What is the harm in showing a better photo as the backers are asking for?
The sensor is hidden, the lens is hidden, no harm in showing a nice detailed shot of the board with Atmel ARM chip and ADC etc.
To not show these simple things is no way to keep the people with pitchforks at bay, it just makes them ever more suspicious and wanting to sharpen their pitchforks. I don't understand the mentality here at all.

[Corporate666]

If that really is a recent proto they still look miles away from a real product - big connectors, huge and ugly lens holder...

Yep.

I have 'alpha' versions of products that are dramatically further along than that!

And without seeing the board more closely, it's impossible to tell if that is just a dev board with an LED lens holder stuck on the top or something more.

Anyone recognize the blue box in the picture?

[romovs]

Has anyone tried making an inquiry to any Chinese sensor manufacturers?
www.nightvisioncn.com
kinghome.cn

According to a friend he saw 160x120 microbolometers with a breakout board going for 500$ at some Shenzhen market...

[EEVblog]

The problem with this project is that the contradictions still abound.
In one sentence they say "we’re getting close", and "getting closer by the day to producing the final release version of the Thermal Imager."
Yet everything they say and show (and don't show) tells anyone experienced in these things that they are nowhere near even getting a decent prototype running.
I don't understand how you can be "close" and have overcome (past tense) "code issues, compatibility problems, and politics", and someone is out "working with our suppliers, assemblers, and shippers".
Yet still no thermal image, hardware that doesn't look even close to something you could get an assembly quote on, and they are "close"?
None of it adds up.

[mikeselectricstuff]

..and I don't see any evidence of a reference shutter, though could be at the rear.

[Rasz]

..and I don't see any evidence of a reference shutter, though could be at the rear.

shhh, they havent figured they need one yet

[jancumps]

Let's look at the matter from another perspective.

[wayfarer]

Hi, I've been following this 'too good to be true' project since the Hackaday post, and had a few observations.

I see no major SMD components on the top of the board, so unless they are on the bottom, it appears to be just a holder/breakout/demo board for the sensor itself.
The standard mounting posts in the corner and the huge header and big slider switch(?) have all the hallmark of classic demo board arrangement.

It looks like the SMD components might be on the bottom.  In the table reflection, you can see a gull-wing SMD IC(which, frankly could be anything) right below the power cable and above the lens reflection.

The "big slider switch" looks like it's actually a 0.1" female header (5 or 6 pin?) with a 0.1" 2-pin male header behind it right next to the lens.  I'm not sure what the black rectangle to the left of the red minigrabber is.  Ditto for the cyan and pinkish-red blobs underneath the o-scope probe.

I was curious, so here is the ELA of the photo: http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=00eebe817e8bae5d6051a9f0046b8c3cdce321e6.97179

The person in the photo seems to match this photo posted to this account: https://www.odesk.com/o/profiles/users/_~019b0a75cfa709891f/

[tom66]

So, he's an app developer. Any hardware expertise?