Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?

[Keef Wivanef]

Off with their testurcles 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/08/20/the-truth-about-kickstarter-and-zioneyez/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/08/20/the-truth-about-kickstarter-and-zioneyez/3/

" Just over a year ago I wrote an article here on Forbes titled ZionEyez, Weiner, and Watching which, amongst other topics, discussed a Kickstarter project called ZionEyez.

If you’re not up to speed on Kickstarter it’s a service where individuals and companies can pitch their ideas for projects of any kind such as products, music, artwork … you name it. These projects are looking for backers; people who will sign up at a level of anything from $1 to thousands of dollars in return for rewards that range from being listed as a project backer through to receiving products in bulk.

The idea of Kickstarter is brilliant: It allows small companies and individuals to test the market for whatever they plan to offer. Some projects don’t get funded, some get what they’re looking for, and some, as in the case of ZionEyez, succeed beyond their wildest dreams.

What ZionEyez proposed was to produce glasses under the brand name “Eyez” that could stream realtime high definition video and audio to the Internet from a built-in camera and microphone in the frame of the specs.

Potential users were really excited by the idea of being able to “life stream” for a very low price ($199) … check out the original posting for more details of the planned product.

ZionEyez was looking to raise $55,000 and on July 31, 2011, the closing date for the project, had slightly exceeded its goal with 2,106 backers committing a total of $343,415! That was, by any measure, an astounding performance and spoke to the surprisingly high latent demand for a product such as the one proposed by ZionEyez.


But wait a second … when you consider the sophistication required to deliver streaming HD video from a product that’s as constrained in size and weight as glasses, you have to wonder whether a startup can deliver on such ambitious promises. In June 2011 a post on the Singularity Hub blog framed the issue nicely:

Now, as cool as Eyez may appear, there’s still plenty of reasons to be cautious. That animation video is great, but it’s not a real product. Is it vaporware? Well, the cynic in me says it’s too early to say otherwise, but ZionEyez CTO, Joe Taylor, is coming from Flip, a company that made millions on mobile cameras , and I don’t think there’s anything in this build that would be impossible or undeliverable at this price. Should we be concerned that Eyez is coming from a crowd sourced project rather than a big name distributor? Maybe. But it could also just be a sign that bright young entrepreneurs know that there’s more money to be made the longer they stay independent."

Did it end in tears?
You betcha!

"I think the bigger issue is the Kickstarter model and the company’s unwillingness to take responsibility for projects that don’t deliver. Based on the stories shared by Kickstarter project backers, I believe the ZionEyez project is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to projects that don’t deliver."

 
Kristina on March 1
"So let me get this straight, you can take $343,415 and live a long & happy life without any consequences? How is this possible?"
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zioneyez/eyeztm-by-zioneyez-hd-video-recording-glasses-for/posts/205189

Aaaaaaaaarrrgh! 

[Keef Wivanef]

Anthony Racaniello on February 14
"This is fucking bullshit, i want my fucking money back".

Short, sweet and to the point 

[Keef Wivanef]

Well....phuck me dead!

Oops...they did it again!
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/vergencelabs/redefine-reality-with-computing-enabled-eyewear/posts


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/vergencelabs/redefine-reality-with-computing-enabled-eyewear/comments
Gil on June 7, 2012
"Note that Vergence is deleting comments on Indiegogo. Apparently, Indiegogo allows project organizers to delete comments whereas Kickstarter does not. You can't tell anything from reading the Indiegogo comments because Vergence is deleting those that are critical or questioning. It also appears that the "Chief Science Officer" just graduated from college last month and that his "professional engineering experience" at Facebook was as an intern. Vergence is claiming that within six months they will ship a revolutionary product, yet they have no funding they are willing to identify, not even a public web page other than their crowdfunding projects, and their entire research staff is a kid who graduated from college last month. Still think it's surprising the Kickstarter cancelled this? Anyone who wants to give these guys money is free to do so, but just be aware you are making a donation, not buying a product. Whether or not you expect to ever see a product is up to you to decide."

WHOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[EEVblog]

Off with their testurcles 
Aaaaaaaaarrrgh! 

Please use quote marks when you are reposting someone else's text.

[Keef Wivanef]

Time to move on?

" Virtual Reality on June 5, 2012
Hi, this is Jon Rodriguez from Vergence writing via a friend's account.
Kickstarter has not notified us of or provided any grounds for their aggressive action. Now that we know that they do stuff like this, we have migrated the project to a competing and hopefully better crowd funding platform:
Vergence Labs Social Video Glasses: Now on IndieGoGo!
http://www.indiegogo.com/socialvideoglasses
If you believe in us and our true ability to deliver you a fantastic, fully functional, and stylish product, thank you. We respect you and we promise to deliver you your pledge rewards if you please re-pledge on IndieGoGo.
Please support fashionable, high-tech computer eyewear. A good percentage of people have already started re-pledging at IndieGoGo, and we invite you to immediately as well! Please message other backers to do the same!
We appreciate your faith and we will make good on our word. We're even offering the video glasses at a $10 discount!!
http://www.indiegogo.com/socialvideoglasses
Jon Rodriguez
Chief Science Officer of Vergence Labs (also an Eagle Scout)"

M'kay?

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/social-video-sharing-glasses-electric-powered-sunglasses--7?website_name=socialvideoglasses

Everybody happy now?

$70,704
Raised of $50,000 Goal

0 time left
Flexible Funding campaign
This campaign received all of the funds contributed by Fri 20 Jul.


Well.....not really!

bryanc23 said 12 days ago
"I am with Christopher. Personally I feel you dropped the ball. We were to have them in December or early January. And still today you say they are coming and now you are accepting preorders. What happened to the backers would be getting their glasses before the public? Seems lies after lies. So Chris was right and you customer service and devotion to your backers is crap."

Maybe it's all those negative comments that are slowing them down. What to do?

"milkchocolate said 23 days ago
@Gabriel…… PLEASE be patient. Read the list of experts working on this ground-breaking project. They are smart, dedicated and hard working professionals. You will receive a much better product than what you expect. I’m certain of it. I hope the negativity is deleted because we need to be sending nothing but continued support to the team for this project. We signed up to support them and their work — and nothing more. And, that’s what we all need to do."

 

Why not PRE-ORDER now?  http://www.epiphanyeyewear.com/

 

[Keef Wivanef]

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs?c=comments

Richard said 4 hours ago
On my request the questioning of the legitimacy of this campaign is now in the hands of the Trust and Safety Team at Indiegogo. Everyone who feels that the terms and conditions item "respond promptly and honestly to questions and Posting posed by Members” has been violated are encouraged to contact support@indiegogo.com. This will hopefully help us getting John out of his hideout.

THANKS FOR THE MUNNY SUCKERS 

[EEVblog]

I have read the recent messages on the site and I am still at a loss to understand how people can think that a new medium resolution thermal camera can be provided to them for just US$150. Do these people not do any research on the topic at all ?

They either don't, or (most likely) are incapable of doing so and understanding the technical details. That's not really their fault though, unless you have worked in  electronics design and manufacturing, it is hard to know this stuff.
As a result they are going to lose their money.
Perhaps someone who's pledged can post a link to this thread, so they can get some input from people with more finely tuned electronics BS detectors.
They should at the very least be able to sniff that the guy isn't answering questions and smell a rat.

[MacAttak]

I was given a refund, but I still receive the update notifications. This one just went through:

Hello Everyone,
After a very long weekend of near round-the-clock work we’re very close to presenting our camera and the images that result. What most all of you are wanting to see is coming up quickly. Much of the software is complete, it’s been the hardware that has been the beast for us. Image quality is of utmost importance to us and much of that work is on the hardware side.
We are still evaluating the USB and Wifi scenarios and have not made a decision. That will be coming soon.
I am working towards finalizing the parts suppliers and the assembly team and most importantly to all of you, the schedule for production. I’ll let you know as soon as I’m confident of a firm timeframe. We’re still six weeks out from our original timeframe of late May.
Thank you all that have been patient with our development process. Enjoy your week.
John McGrath

I attach no conclusions or speculation.

[BravoV]

Just curious whether its not too late to pull another new scam, considering how easy it is to set a new one.

Anyway, its all about making the right and convincing "show" right ?   

Equipped with a nice convincing presentation with cool looking computer rendered gadget and animation/video, and one or two good looking figures as puppets, and they should be easy to find and cheap too, few hundreds thousands dollars in just few months, damn easy money.

Anyone interested ? 

[vk6zgo]

Hope they have some lovely cell mates
                                                       

They will be Bubba's new special friends!

[EEVblog]

After a very long weekend of near round-the-clock work we’re very close to presenting our camera and the images that result.

I bet you aren't.

What most all of you are wanting to see is coming up quickly. Much of the software is complete, it’s been the hardware that has been the beast for us.

The prototype hardware you've been asked to show and haven't?

Image quality is of utmost importance to us and much of that work is on the hardware side.

Hardware or optics? Be specific now.
Given that you said you dispensed with the expensive optics, it must be electronics? If so, how?

We are still evaluating the USB and Wifi scenarios and have not made a decision. That will be coming soon.

Which completely changes your entire design.
That means another prototype spin, then pre-production, then production.

I am working towards finalizing the parts suppliers and the assembly team and most importantly to all of you, the schedule for production.

How can you finalise the schedule when you haven't even a decided on Wifi or USB?

I’ll let you know as soon as I’m confident of a firm timeframe. We’re still six weeks out from our original timeframe of late May.

No, it's 4 weeks, 5 weeks tops.
Which is barely enough time to spin another prototype. Maybe a pre-production run is you got really lucky.

Thank you all that have been patient with our development process. Enjoy your week.

I bet your development process is completely on paper, there isn't any real hardware. You either have no idea what you doing, or are simply full of crap.

Taking bets now on what your excuse will be in 4-5 weeks time when you have delivered squat and still shown nothing...

[Bored@Work]

Taking bets now on what your excuse will be in 4-5 weeks time when you have delivered squat and still shown nothing...

A sudden outbreak of the flue or another illness, confining the whole team to bed.

[Keef Wivanef]

Well yes... but....no but..........
The SMARTS are in the Iphone and we have writted the apps an all shit like that.

The front end is just that pesky Geranium lens and the grid bias an all shit like that.
Convert it to USB or wi-fi or some shit like that and then we let the Iphone do all the grunt, like putting it in albums and all shit like that.

Why not place a pre order now and dont be negative an all shit like that.
(small blue planet...blah de blah)

[Keef Wivanef]

Oh good heavens to Betsy!
WHAT A LOAD OF OLD BOLLOCKS! 

[EEVblog]

A sudden outbreak of the flue or another illness, confining the whole team to bed.

The dog ate their prototype.

[MacAttak]

Much of the software is complete

That part is a bit of a red flag for me. I've been on the software development side of things for two decades now, and deal with many platforms - including iPhone/Android. In the only video we have seen, a single "developer" was shown - a guy was clearly very young (therefore inexperienced) and who referred to himself as a "designer".

To write the kind of software these guys are talking about is not a 4-week/1-person project, not even for the very best in the industry. Especially not when you are talking about supporting two incompatible mobile platforms at launch. That's effectively two different applications written in different languages against different API's.

My guess is that the "designer" has mocked up some UI and spackled it together into a barely functional prototype - something that looks like it is useful but is mostly smoke & mirrors. But most of the real code isn't there (stubbed out, TBD). Usually that means the hard parts are left undone until the end... and basically you get screwed by the 80/20 rule. 80% of development time is spent on the final 20% of code. But nobody sees that so far - everything looks great until the wave crashes over.

Unless I have made some very bad errors in guesswork about what the "team" looks like, I'm betting they are probably a good 4 to 6 months from stable software (in the best case). And that might even be with bringing on one or two more very experienced ($$$) devs.

Totally ignoring the hardware side of things - I just don't find it realistic that they could afford to complete the software in time - not without some external investment that we don't know about. There just isn't headroom left in the operating budget for that given what we know about the hardware costs.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Much of the software is complete

That part is a bit of a red flag for me. I've been on the software development side of things for two decades now, and deal with many platforms - including iPhone/Android. In the only video we have seen, a single "developer" was shown - a guy was clearly very young (therefore inexperienced) and who referred to himself as a "designer".

To write the kind of software these guys are talking about is not a 4-week/1-person project, not even for the very best in the industry. Especially not when you are talking about supporting two incompatible mobile platforms at launch. That's effectively two different applications written in different languages against different API's.

My guess is that the "designer" has mocked up some UI and spackled it together into a barely functional prototype - something that looks like it is useful but is mostly smoke & mirrors. But most of the real code isn't there (stubbed out, TBD). Usually that means the hard parts are left undone until the end... and basically you get screwed by the 80/20 rule. 80% of development time is spent on the final 20% of code. But nobody sees that so far - everything looks great until the wave crashes over.

Unless I have made some very bad errors in guesswork about what the "team" looks like, I'm betting they are probably a good 4 to 6 months from stable software (in the best case). And that might even be with bringing on one or two more very experienced ($$$) devs.

Totally ignoring the hardware side of things - I just don't find it realistic that they could afford to complete the software in time - not without some external investment that we don't know about. There just isn't headroom left in the operating budget for that given what we know about the hardware costs.

Bear in mind that for basic functionality all this needs to do is receive and display an image, and add a few simple control widgets. Even if it's doing some clever stuff to do things like correcting lens geometry, that wouldn't prevent demoing _something_ Could easily be done to a demo-able standard in a week by one good guy.
If it's taking months you're doing it wrong.

[EEVblog]

Even IRISYS provide detail of how their very clever and economic sensors work. If this company really had a revolutionary sensor, as they seem to imply, they don't need to sell any cheap TIC's, they could sell the idea to the big players and walk away with Millions of Dollars in production rights.

They have said they have "several suppliers" of low sensors to choose them, so they are just using COTS, perhaps in novel way. As they have also said that they have dispensed with the traditional expensive optics, yet they do claim some magic of some sort.
It's all contradictory and complete BS.

[dustout]

I emailed John (their CEO) and requested a refund, which he refunded me immediately no questions asked.  I can't imagine they are going to pull off what they are planning to unless they have outside help that we don't know about... for instance if a remote 3rd party is developing the actual product and they just need to sell it... that's not what they are claiming to be though.  My money isn't necessarily on full on scam from the beginning but them getting in way over their heads and then trying to cover that up.

In this process they may have some real connections for special deals for cheaper key components and set up distribution to retailers as they claim to be doing.  That's all networking and with the money they pulled in they may have turned some heads.  However without the skills and knowledge to make use of even the best 'connections', it's not going to go anywhere.  If they ever pull something off I imagine it will be a long time out.  I'd LOVE for this to come to fruition but I was gambling when they started and after all their responses and not even having decided on wifi vs USB methinks they aren't anywhere near the level of what is needed to do this.

Anyways if they ever make the thing I'll happily pay the non-backer double price for doubting them.  But for now I've got $150 back I though I'd lost.

[MacAttak]

He isn't telling the whole truth here... their participation in the show was canceled long before this weekend's "WiFi chip issues". I'm sure it won't take long for backers to latch on to that:

Hello Everyone,
This weekend was a bit tough, we’ve had a setback with our WiFi chipset provider, we’ve been unable to get the adhoc WiFi working well with the multiple phones we’ve been testing it on.
We’ve now gone back to work with a provider that we originally looked at but that required a host chipset to work off of. They have just released a chipset that now meets all of our requirements (and does not require a host) and after a weekend of evaluation and consideration we’ve decided to make the change. Quality and reliability have to take precedence over most everything else.
What does this do to our schedule? Well…regretfully, we’re not going to make the hardware show, though we’ve contacted the people we were most interested in meeting with and they’ve agreed to private meetings later in the month.
As to our delivery to our IndieGoGo supporters, it means a delay. At this point, it’s too early to say when we’ll begin shipping but hopefully it won’t be much of a delay, please give me a week or so to determine what the delay will be. This disappoints us more than you can know and we know it’s a disappointment to all of you. You’re continued patience is appreciated and if you would like a refund due to the delay, let me know.
Next week we’ll show you the software, using the visible light portion of our product (we can’t show thermal images in it until we get the WiFi working well). This will include a run through of the operations of the camera, the database behind it and how you’ll work with it.
Thank you all.
John McGrath

And WTF is this all about?...

Next week we’ll show you the software, using the visible light portion of our product (we can’t show thermal images in it until we get the WiFi working well). This will include a run through of the operations of the camera, the database behind it and how you’ll work with it.

So they are just going to show a phone camera? And why does anything like this need a "database"?? That's like saying "we added 'fuzzy logic' to our design" which is basically just bullshit technical jargon intended to fool nontechnical people.

[Recyclojunk64]

Great to hear that he is willingly giving out refunds

Yeah, they did already menition it two weeks ago. I guess there was little communication between them as to what there preferred excuse was

There is some talk in the comments about us not being on the roster for the Hardware show. This is true, we pulled off of the show floor because we realized that it would be more economical for us to meet with the big buyers privately rather than show the imager on the convention floor.

Guess we wait till next week too see if they show anything or run into a problem and have to wait to the week after, then the week after that...

[Keef Wivanef]

"Hello Everyone,
This weekend was a bit tough, we’ve had a setback with our WiFi chipset provider, we’ve been unable to get the adhoc WiFi working well with the multiple phones we’ve been testing it on.
We’ve now gone back to work with a provider that we originally looked at but that required a host chipset to work off of. They have just released a chipset that now meets all of our requirements (and does not require a host) and after a weekend of evaluation and consideration we’ve decided to make the change."

BOLLOCKS!!!   

[dustout]

I'm extra glad I have that refund now... that last update is ridiculous and makes no sense to reality.

[EEVblog]

Hello Everyone,
This weekend was a bit tough, we’ve had a setback with our WiFi chipset provider, we’ve been unable to get the adhoc WiFi working well with the multiple phones we’ve been testing it on.
We’ve now gone back to work with a provider that we originally looked at but that required a host chipset to work off of. They have just released a chipset that now meets all of our requirements (and does not require a host) and after a weekend of evaluation and consideration we’ve decided to make the change.

You procured, prototyped, and evaluated a new WiFi chipset since your previous update?
Bullshit.
At best you only looked at the datasheet.

  Quality and reliability have to take precedence over most everything else.
What does this do to our schedule? Well…regretfully, we’re not going to make the hardware show, though we’ve contacted the people we were most interested in meeting with and they’ve agreed to private meetings later in the month.

Who are these people?
Private?
Bullshit.

As to our delivery to our IndieGoGo supporters, it means a delay. At this point, it’s too early to say when we’ll begin shipping but hopefully it won’t be much of a delay, please give me a week or so to determine what the delay will be.
This disappoints us more than you can know and we know it’s a disappointment to all of you. You’re continued patience is appreciated and if you would like a refund due to the delay, let me know.

I'd recommend every single person take him up on that offer.

Next week we’ll show you the software, using the visible light portion of our product

Which has nothing to do with thermal imaging.
I thought the product only had the thermal sensor in it, if so your "visible light" portion of your product is simply the mobile phone camera!
Anyone could demo a cell phone photo and some graphics in an app. It shows nothing.
Pathetic, and classic bait'n'switch.

(we can’t show thermal images in it until we get the WiFi working well).

Bullshit you can't!
After all of your supposed prototypes, you STILL can't show an actual thermal image?
You have nothing, admit it.

This will include a run through of the operations of the camera, the database behind it and how you’ll work with it.

So the only thing you are going to demo after all this time is a database. Nice. 

[EEVblog]

I'm extra glad I have that refund now... that last update is ridiculous and makes no sense to reality.

Yes, you did the right thing, they have squat, and will ultimately deliver squat.