Author Topic: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker  (Read 38239 times)

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Offline Bicurico

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Offline PwrElectronics

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #201 on: October 19, 2023, 02:05:58 pm »
This started to affect me a week ago.  I found refreshing the page got me past it.

Then, yesterday it would not.

So, OK lets turn off the adblocker I was using selectively for youtube.  I noticed it was already off!  Hmm.  I clicked the box they put up to allow ads and it basically has instructions on turning off the blocker for them.  Something I had already done.

So, unless there is a hidden blocker I don't recall having  :-//

This is on Firefox BTW.  I am logged in on youtube on that browser since I have my own channel with some stuff on it.

So, went to use edge as a browser where I am not logged in and don't generally use for youtube and even tho that also has a ad blocker on it, it works.   :-//
 

Offline madiresTopic starter

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #202 on: October 19, 2023, 02:10:15 pm »
BTW, YouTube ran its ad-blocker detection experiment in Germany last weekend. It's unclear if users were selected randomly or if they share a common feature, e.g. logged in. And it seems that YouTube tried different levels of nagging.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #203 on: October 19, 2023, 07:09:23 pm »
I wonder if it might be possible to send TCP ACKs early when it downloads the ads. Some packets can get dropped but you don't care about the content anyways. I suppose there would be the problem of getting too ahead of the server and the scheme getting detected, some adaptive scheme can counter that.

I think stealth adblocking would become a lot more common if there's a good reason to use it.

TCP ACKs alone wouldn't work, because TCP packets are max 64KiB each.  The average advertiser video is going to be larger than that, and the length is probably not deterministic (due to how streaming video works).  But on a modern connection downloading that in full won't take much time.  There's a bit of DASH going on in the background as well, managing the max bitrate the client can handle. 

Even if Google enforces the "wait N seconds to get your video" I can see the adblockers winning by just showing a "loading" screen.  That would still be better than watching an ad.

Yeah. It's not hard from the server's pov to ensure that *all data* has been sent to the client. Detecting only partial transfers is not rocket science. And yes, streaming can easily be bound to a max rate, so that the client can't download a streaming video faster than the streamer source intends it to. So yeah, as I said, the only thing always possible will just be for browsers to act exactly as if nothing was blocked at all, but just not display the parts that the user doesn't want to see. (Having to wait for 30s before each video would be annoying though, but if you have no choice...)

The only way that could be prevented would again to have the browsers themselves make it impossible, and of course that's something that could happen with closed-source software, but it's pretty impossible to ensure that with open-source software.
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #204 on: October 19, 2023, 08:28:12 pm »
BTW, YouTube ran its ad-blocker detection experiment in Germany last weekend. It's unclear if users were selected randomly or if they share a common feature, e.g. logged in. And it seems that YouTube tried different levels of nagging.
Must have been quite random. I am a regular user, one at work, not logged in with a chrome based browser: no change. And at home, logged in and with firefox, also no change.
But on both browsers i have uBlock Origin enabled, from what i heard that can supposedly circumvent the block, so maybe thats why i noticed nothing.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #205 on: October 19, 2023, 08:38:26 pm »
ublock still not working, even after refreshing the cache, etc. Completely blocked from viewing anything.
Ended up using this app instead: https://freetubeapp.io/
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Offline MT

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #206 on: October 19, 2023, 08:45:24 pm »
What about go the commie way "and nationalize" YT (planetarilizing) tax oligarchs to pay for the servers holding the content and paying content providers. Surely Gates, Musk, Bezoz, Rotschilds, Rockefeller and other trillionary bankster families can afford a free planetary video service.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #207 on: October 19, 2023, 11:06:52 pm »
ublock still not working, even after refreshing the cache, etc. Completely blocked from viewing anything.

Huh, I use uBlock Origin and have not noticed any problems.  For most YouTube videos, I download them to local storage and watch from there, but I still stream some of them and have not noticed any issues.

Maybe YouTube is staging the rollout?
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #208 on: October 19, 2023, 11:29:00 pm »
What about go the commie way "and nationalize" YT (planetarilizing) tax oligarchs to pay for the servers holding the content and paying content providers. Surely Gates, Musk, Bezoz, Rotschilds, Rockefeller and other trillionary bankster families can afford a free planetary video service.

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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #209 on: October 19, 2023, 11:59:31 pm »
Yeah. It's not hard from the server's pov to ensure that *all data* has been sent to the client. Detecting only partial transfers is not rocket science.
The client is effectively lying that it has received a packet that got dropped. Of course, it would be easy to detect if it claimed to have received one that hasn't been sent yet. But so long as that doesn't happen, how would a server know that the client didn't actually receive all the packets that have already been sent?
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Offline thm_w

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #210 on: October 20, 2023, 12:32:42 am »
ublock still not working, even after refreshing the cache, etc. Completely blocked from viewing anything.

Huh, I use uBlock Origin and have not noticed any problems.  For most YouTube videos, I download them to local storage and watch from there, but I still stream some of them and have not noticed any issues.

Maybe YouTube is staging the rollout?

Its definitely some kind of roll out based on country, account, and maybe device type. I just checked at work and ublock still works there.
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Online MK14

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #211 on: October 20, 2023, 12:53:08 am »
I used YouTube earlier today and it tried it on and showed me a 5 second advert, on an android (or similar) like device.  I was furious and wanted to see lots of videos, at that time.
So, I went to Odysee, and was able to find the videos, and watch them ad-free (apart from some fixed advert banners, some of which can be removed with a clickable 'X').

By and large, I enjoyed the experience.  To my surprise, many of the YouTube videos, are already on Odysee.

It was a little bit clonky interface wise, slow at times, especially when starting or performing searches.  It is not anything like as polished, features/interface wise, compared to YouTube.  But does basically work alright.

I'm not really happy with monthly or yearly subscriptions, for any organisation or entity.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #212 on: October 20, 2023, 02:16:07 am »
Yes Odysee is not bad. Of course it doesn't have the traction YT has and thus not nearly the amount of videos, and yeah it's a bit sluggish at times. One thing I liked is that it remembers where you stopped in a video when you open it back. YT doesn't. (I've noticed that sometimes, but very occasionally, it does, and haven't found a clear pattern why or why not.)

One thing I like less is that it requires an account (yes even if it's free) for changing any setting apart from the language.

Which makes me point out another issue with subscriptions: they require you to be connected to one account to watch videos. While I have a google account, I'm not always connected to it when watching YT, and I don't want to be forced to.
 
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Online MK14

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #213 on: October 20, 2023, 03:57:20 am »
Which makes me point out another issue with subscriptions: they require you to be connected to one account to watch videos. While I have a google account, I'm not always connected to it when watching YT, and I don't want to be forced to.

Exactly the problem with that, happened to me today, while watching those videos.

Background, I was preparing, a fairly large order, elsewhere (Amazon).  During which time, I spent a long time (Amazon obviously spies on me), putting an extra item or items into my basket/order, and/or looking fairly extensively at a certain item.  But there was an issue with it, on further research, so I stopped buying that item and/or removed it/any from my cart.

So, during my adventures on YouTube, that very item (or a competitors version of the same item), comes up as an advert.  That really annoys me.  Partly because I've decided not to buy it, so that should be that, unless I change my mind, but also on privacy grounds.

Who exactly gets all this, supposedly private data, and what do they do with it? (no need to answer, I can guess, partly).

In the case of Amazon, the information is particularly sensitive.  Because I was signed in, so they know exactly who I am.  Therefore, they should NOT be exploiting my information like that.

They (Amazon), may claim I (and others) signed up for it, when I agreed to their terms and conditions.  But these days, terms and conditions, are often, perhaps a hundred or more pages long, written in horrible, difficult to read or understand legalese and presented (typically) in a smallish rectangle, in a ridiculously tiny font, in a way which is horrible to read from.
Also, it is potentially shown, when you are just excitedly about to buy something for the first time, from somewhere, so just want to give them your details, and get on with the transaction.

I don't know what the solution is.  Except perhaps VPN's or similar, for everyone.  Except that I suspect that a huge majority of the population, don't know about all this data gathering, what its consequence are going to be, or how to prevent it.

Even with VPN's, at various times, it would be necessary to sign in to various things, perhaps with your real details, otherwise various things, e.g. purchases, can't easily take place.

Analogy.  It is as if all the dwellings were made entirely out of glass, so anyone outside, could see in.  With cameras, everywhere, whereby a huge number of people and organisations, can see what you are doing.

Hence Google's YouTube subscriptions, are probably a definite no no, from me.  Purely from the privacy point of view, as there would be no easy way of hiding, ones activities.
I know you can mess around, and create a subscription in another country, under a false name.  But I shouldn't need to go to such extremes, just to keep my 'data' private from google.

Example:
By knowing what YouTube videos I watch, one can tell what my interests are and things like that.  So it should be strictly private information.

Sometimes I've looked up the details on potentially better ISP's, in the UK.  This has resulted in some cases, in my internet service provider (ISP), not long after, writing to me, offering various deals. Hinting at a "please stay with us".

As I see it, it is ridiculous that they (ISP) are spying on my, like that.  They have no right, in my opinion.  In a worst case situation, they have access to all my internet web URL, activities and even the raw data (depending on if it was encrypted or not).  So it is potentially problematic, and who knows what third parties, can get any of it.
E.g. What URL's a person visits, how often and at what times.  Along with their real life contact details (in a worst case scenario).
 

Offline Messtechniker

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #214 on: October 20, 2023, 06:20:37 am »
By knowing what YouTube videos I watch, one can tell what my interests are and things like that. 
I tend to mess their data bases up by "watching" videos of no interest to me.
I now get dog food ads for the dog i don't have. Great. And I apparently have 6 children.
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #215 on: October 20, 2023, 06:47:35 am »
I don't know what the solution is.  Except perhaps VPN's or similar, for everyone.  Except that I suspect that a huge majority of the population, don't know about all this data gathering, what its consequence are going to be, or how to prevent it.

You will be pleased to know that VPNs have actually gained a certain popularity (even if it's still only a minority of people using them), and that the governments of some countries are already considering banning VPNs for personal use.
 
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Online magic

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #216 on: October 20, 2023, 07:15:09 am »
I wonder if it might be possible to send TCP ACKs early when it downloads the ads. Some packets can get dropped but you don't care about the content anyways. I suppose there would be the problem of getting too ahead of the server and the scheme getting detected, some adaptive scheme can counter that.
Yeah. It's not hard from the server's pov to ensure that *all data* has been sent to the client. Detecting only partial transfers is not rocket science.
The client is effectively lying that it has received a packet that got dropped. Of course, it would be easy to detect if it claimed to have received one that hasn't been sent yet. But so long as that doesn't happen, how would a server know that the client didn't actually receive all the packets that have already been sent?

Bollocks. By the time your browsers drops a packet, it has already been delivered to you and used up all the necessary network resources, so what's the point? You can't stop YT from sending you packets that you request and they could easily stop you from watching videos if you don't download enough ads.

As for ACKing packets which were genuinely lost by the network, yeah, maybe you could, or maybe not if some cryptographic scheme in place renders the whole connection undecipherable afterwards and requests for videos and ads are multiplexed together. If it works, you would maybe reduce bandwidth by single digit percentage or whatever; complete waste of time.
 
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Offline Ranayna

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #217 on: October 20, 2023, 07:21:25 am »
Which makes me point out another issue with subscriptions: they require you to be connected to one account to watch videos. While I have a google account, I'm not always connected to it when watching YT, and I don't want to be forced to.
That is indeed a good point.
And Youtube does not even have any kind of profiles.
What i watch differs *heavily* while at work or while at home.

At work, i either watch some product-tutorials (some of these are *excellent*) or have some ambient music running in the background. And i have a company advocated adblocker active. This blocker is active by default and is supposed to save bandwidth and reduce risks. I can disable it, but i am not supposed to. I am not logged in at work.

My viewing habits at home are *very* different. While i do watch the occasional product tutorial, i mostly watch for entertainment and personal interests. Videos that, would they appear in my feed at work, would be frowned upon.

Since YT does not have Profiles to keep these watching habits separate (as far as i am aware of), i would have to pay twice for Premium, which i obviously will not do.

By the way: I actually do not hate the algorithm. Interestingly i do watch a couple of channels that are often complaining about being spurned by the algorithm, but i see each and every new video made by them on the start page. Even witht being subscribed to them.
 

Online MK14

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #218 on: October 20, 2023, 07:25:30 am »
You will be pleased to know that VPNs have actually gained a certain popularity (even if it's still only a minority of people using them), and that the governments of some countries are already considering banning VPNs for personal use.

I would assume that in the same way, Doctors are allowed access to drugs, via prescriptions (although, in general, they are NOT suppose to write prescriptions, for themselves!).

Computer personnel (because of needing to test websites, using different IP addresses, to their connection, which could be the same IP as the servers), and other reasons.  Presumably/probably would be exempted from such laws.

Otherwise some genuine work, such as testing and developing websites, might get harder.  As multiple IP addresses may be needed, to pretend to be different users, perhaps even in different countries.

But anyway.  I suspect, a significant percentage of the users on this forum, would know how to resolve a new law in their country, that bans VPNs, if they want to.  If that ends up being needed, and if there are (legal) solutions.
 

Online magic

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #219 on: October 20, 2023, 07:36:10 am »
In general, government is a problem with no legal solution ;)
 
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Offline Bicurico

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #220 on: October 20, 2023, 07:36:32 am »
I use VPN to access my private network from the outside.
What is wrong with that?
I doubt they can make laws banning that.
I understand you guys are talking about paid VPN services to obscure your identity and/or country. Again I doubt you can make that illegal.
 
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Offline Ranayna

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #221 on: October 20, 2023, 07:41:47 am »
I use VPN to access my private network from the outside.
What is wrong with that?
I doubt they can make laws banning that.
I understand you guys are talking about paid VPN services to obscure your identity and/or country. Again I doubt you can make that illegal.
In quite a few countries VPNs are already decacto illegal. And they are trying their best to actually block them.
And do you think a government that bans VPN cares if you cannot access your home network anymore?

Of course there will always be holes. Even China's "Great Firewall" has holes. But if you use these, you should be very careful to avoid any suspicion, otherwise, should you or your equipment be checked, you are in trouble.
 
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Offline Bicurico

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #222 on: October 20, 2023, 07:55:05 am »
My private home network is used for work, too, and my requirements to access it are beyond hobby scope. My IT use is a blur when it comes to distinguishing private from professional use.

VPN is integral part of Windows 1x and in the EU it is nowadays, in the Post-COVID, perfectly common do work in home office. How are you supposed to log into your company network if not by VPN?

Anyway, never heard of VPN being made illegal or banned.

As mentioned, it is supported by Windows, most consumer grade routers, etc.
 
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Offline Bicurico

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #223 on: October 20, 2023, 08:00:07 am »
Found this article about the legality of VPN's:

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/are-vpns-legal/

I would say only few failed states are prohibiting the use of VPN.

And even then, I wonder if VPN's inside the country are OK.

The issue with VPN's is that they can be used to obscure the user's identity and/or give access to regional content, which is otherwise inaccessible. This is of course used to download movies not available in your region or to download Torrents, without leaving your IP. I guess the latter is bullshit, as the VPN service providers do keep logs.
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: YouTube runs experiment addressing users with ad blocker
« Reply #224 on: October 20, 2023, 08:11:16 am »
VPNs are essential for anyone who has to work remotely on their company's network, banning VPNs would be saying for instance, that sales guy in France cannot access the resources on the shared drive in the UK any more.

It's not going to happen in any sensible country.  Even the UK with their stupid campaign against end to end message encryption.  VPNs are great.
 
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