Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.

[Nominal Animal]

I'd argue that ICE is not completely free of issues, at the time I went many parking lots had scores of electrical outlets to plug in the engine block heaters.

Yes; they do make it much easier to start the engine when the temperature drops below -10°C or so.  They're only needed for a half hour to a hour before starting, though; they're not needed continuously.

I remember someone telling me they had trouble with diesel fuel gelling too although I don't know whether modern stuff still has that issue.

The stuff sold here has additives added that fixes those issues, and they're also available separately (typically in bottles to be mixed with 400 liters of diesel). This winter, there was a shortage of a key one, and its price shot through the roof.  (I forget the exact details.)

There is no reason the same can't be done for battery packs

It is a slightly different issue, because the charge the battery can take or release is dependent on the temperature.  It is not sufficient to just heat it when charging, you also need to heat it when discharging, so basically continuously.  This affects the overall efficiency.  And which cars already do this?  Which ones have been tested to work in Arctic conditions in practice?  I do not know.

Then again, I'm not in the market for a new EV, or any new vehicle, anyway.

[free_electron]

That rubber like coating they put on mice, keyboard palmrests and other peripherals, and invariable, turns to a sticky goop that is annoying as hell.
Whoever invented that should be coated in two layers of the stuff and put out in the hot sun for a couple of days..

I found a good way to remove that crap.
Use an old creditcard or an amazon giftcard ( they work even better, the plastic is a bit flexier than a credit card ) and scoop it of in one motion. try to get as much off as possible.
Then use Purell hand sanitizing wipes. the ones in individual packs. They have a hard paper towelette. much harder than your regular soft cloth towelettes. it has the right amount of "grit" to get the rest off.

https://www.amazon.com/Sanitizing-Alcohol-Fragrance-Individually-Portable/dp/B014EVXZ9S/ref=asc_df_B014EVXZ9S/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198076816763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9490757455855247871&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031827&hvtargid=pla-351519938381&psc=1

don't get the other type (the "personal") : that has a regular cotton soft cloth. you need the hard version. it's almost like wax paper.

[james_s]

There is no free lunch. EV's have their place - post office vehicles, local mass transportation, any application that involves stop-and-go movement in a relatively small geographic area. They are ideal for such applications. But EV's are worse than useless for long-haul transportation of people or products because of their relatively short range and relatively lengthy refueling time, especially as the total mass increases (like for over the road trucking).

The ideal general-purpose drivetrain technology is hybrid because it combines the recapture of the pure EV and the range of the ICE. Ironically, the railroads have known and used this for decades in their diesel-electric locomotives. We are simply rediscovering what has actually been known for a very long time.

My family just suited action to the words by buying a new Toyota Sienna Hybrid minivan. We've had it about six weeks and just finished our first long distance road trip with it, so we have some experience now with local, mixed, and all-highway driving. It's basically perfect. We get ridiculous mileage around town, approaching 50 MPG; we were closing in on 1000 miles before we ever had to put fuel in it. Mixed driving sees around 40 MPG. The road trip... well, there the EV aspect yields basically nothing because there's very little braking, but we still get mid 30's for MPG and the range is over 600 miles per tank. There's simply no other drivetrain that can deliver that combination of short-haul efficiency and long-haul range. I think Toyota has nailed it with their hybrid technology because it's suitable for almost every family situation.

For long haul transportation of goods I think it's still hard to beat diesel. Rail is especially efficient, and as an alternative to diesel it is relatively easy to electrify without needing huge onboard batteries.

For general purpose transportation EVs currently available can meet the needs for easily 90% of the driving done. Statistics show that most people never drive more than a few hundred miles in a stretch and commonly available EVs can already do 300 miles. I rarely drive anymore and I love the specific car I have, but if I were considering buying a brand new car EV is an absolute no-brainer for me. It's so much cheaper to run, it requires much less maintenance and it offers much better performance. It's been almost 20 years since I've driven more than 300 miles in a day but if I did need to do that I could stop at a supercharger or just rent a different car for that rare trip. When I drove my dad's Tesla Y for a few weeks I worked out that it cost me about $10 to put 300 miles in it, a hybrid would be at least 5 times that cost for fuel and wouldn't come close to touching the ~3 second 0-60 time. Granted nobody really needs such absurd acceleration but it sure is fun. I view hybrids as a stopgap while battery tech was developing, and as a niche for the small percentage of people who actually need more range. They exist obviously, but the are a minority.

[tooki]

That said, I don't like them, either - can't imagine that the fuel savings outweighs the added wear and tear on the starter, battery and charging system.

You’d be wrong. Here in Switzerland, it’s been the law for many, many years that drivers are required to turn off the engine at red lights and railroad crossings, as well as when stuck in traffic jams. Consequently, both government and private entities (including pro-driver ones) have done studies over the years on both fuel savings and engine wear, and they found that it doesn’t add any engine wear at all. Meanwhile, they found that bottom line, it saves fuel to turn off the engine for any stop longer than 5-10 seconds. Two caveats they list: to not floor the gas pedal while restarting, and to not turn off the engine before it has warmed up fully. (I assume that the modern auto-stop systems and fly-by-wire controls eliminate both of these caveats.)

[james_s]

That said, I don't like them, either - can't imagine that the fuel savings outweighs the added wear and tear on the starter, battery and charging system.

You’d be wrong. Here in Switzerland, it’s been the law for many, many years that drivers are required to turn off the engine at red lights and railroad crossings, as well as when stuck in traffic jams. Consequently, both government and private entities (including pro-driver ones) have done studies over the years on both fuel savings and engine wear, and they found that it doesn’t add any engine wear at all. Meanwhile, they found that bottom line, it saves fuel to turn off the engine for any stop longer than 5-10 seconds. Two caveats they list: to not floor the gas pedal while restarting, and to not turn off the engine before it has warmed up fully. (I assume that the modern auto-stop systems and fly-by-wire controls eliminate both of these caveats.)

How many miles did the cars have on them when they checked for engine wear and how did they account for variables in the way the cars were driven and maintained? Did they include wear of the starter motor too? The better systems like this use a hybrid style brushless motor on the flywheel to start the engine but many systems use a conventional starter motor, it's easy to tell by the sound. When I looked a few years ago someone driving fleet vehicles said that the fuel savings was on the order of single digit gallons per year over quite a lot of driving. Personally that fuel consumption is worth it just for a less irritating ride, I find the lag when starting up and the lurch to be obnoxiously irritating. Also at least with some of them the air conditioning stops working when the engine shuts off and warm moist air starts blowing out the vents, that's pretty miserable. Some systems at least will stop the engine from shutting off when the AC is engaged.

[tooki]

The articles I found (which is many, I got lots of results from Germany, too, which has similar laws) didn’t specify the test parameters. But what they do say is that cars with auto-stop use heavier-duty starters and batteries to make up for the more frequent starts, and that they won’t stop the engine until it’s warm, and that a warm restart doesn’t cause nearly as much wear and tear as a cold start.

As for fuel savings, it’s obviously highest (up to 15% according to tests) in city driving. For Switzerland as a whole (which is a lot of rural, non-freeway driving), they estimate a savings of about one tank of gas per year on average.

[coppice]

The articles I found (which is many, I got lots of results from Germany, too, which has similar laws) didn’t specify the test parameters. But what they do say is that cars with auto-stop use heavier-duty starters and batteries to make up for the more frequent starts, and that they won’t stop the engine until it’s warm, and that a warm restart doesn’t cause nearly as much wear and tear as a cold start.

As for fuel savings, it’s obviously highest (up to 15% according to tests) in city driving. For Switzerland as a whole (which is a lot of rural, non-freeway driving), they estimate a savings of about one tank of gas per year on average.

Most cars with start stop won't start stop much if you mostly drive in town, especially diesel cars, If you drive a lot on highways, they do their start stopping around town, but then that isn't a big part of their total operation, so the savings aren't great.

I've read a few studies about the effectiveness of start stop. The results seem pretty much in line with what you might expect. If the study is sponsored by a group with an interesting in promoting start stop they think its wonderful, and downplay all the negatives. If its funded by others they think its terrible, and downplay all the positives.

[PlainName]

I find the lag when starting up and the lurch to be obnoxiously irritating

Ah! Do you drive an automatic? Reason I ask is because both stop/start motors I drove were manual, and the act of depressing the clutch prior to selecting first (or second for the Dacia) got the motor running. So no lag and no lurch.

[coppice]

I find the lag when starting up and the lurch to be obnoxiously irritating

Ah! Do you drive an automatic? Reason I ask is because both stop/start motors I drove were manual, and the act of depressing the clutch prior to selecting first (or second for the Dacia) got the motor running. So no lag and no lurch.

In most cars, automatic or manual, you lift your foot from the brake and the engine starts. In a manual, there is an interlock with the neutral position of the gearbox and the clutch. By time your foot has reached the accelerator the engine is running. The snag is in poorly maintained cars that don't start first turn, even when warmed up.

[tooki]

Most cars with start stop won't start stop much if you mostly drive in town, especially diesel cars, If you drive a lot on highways, they do their start stopping around town, but then that isn't a big part of their total operation, so the savings aren't great.

LOL what? That makes NO sense. Stop and go driving in cities is exactly where they gain the largest fuel savings. (And emissions reductions, which is the actual reason behind the laws.)

I live in downtown Zurich (Switzerland’s largest city) and hear car engines stop and restart on a daily basis at crosswalks.

I've read a few studies about the effectiveness of start stop. The results seem pretty much in line with what you might expect. If the study is sponsored by a group with an interesting in promoting start stop they think its wonderful, and downplay all the negatives. If its funded by others they think its terrible, and downplay all the positives.

The source most cited in Swiss media is the TCS (Touring Club Suisse), which is an automobile club akin to AAA, and they’re decidedly pro-car, yet they still clearly support start-stop.

[coppice]

Most cars with start stop won't start stop much if you mostly drive in town, especially diesel cars, If you drive a lot on highways, they do their start stopping around town, but then that isn't a big part of their total operation, so the savings aren't great.

LOL what? That makes NO sense. Stop and go driving in cities is exactly where they gain the largest fuel savings. (And emissions reductions, which is the actual reason behind the laws.)

There are several factors going on. If your car has a particulate filter its cleaning cycle status goes into the stop start logic. That can severely reduce how often you stop start in city driving, as the car won't stop start if it wants to run its cleaning cycle. Many cars now won't fully charge the battery in around town daytime driving, although you can often fool them into charging by using the headlights 100% of the time. Battery status goes into the stop start logic, preventing stop start if the battery is not fully charged. This became a big issue with covid lockdowns, where the reduced number of journeys combined town driving caused a lot of cars to completely stop using start stop. I bought a new Volvo in 2019. If stop started until covid greatly changed my driving patterns and hasn't done so since.

[PlainName]

In most cars, automatic or manual, you lift your foot from the brake and the engine starts.

It could do that too, but you shouldn't be riding the foot brake if you're stopped for long enough for the stop/start to engage 

[coppice]

In most cars, automatic or manual, you lift your foot from the brake and the engine starts.

It could do that too, but you shouldn't be riding the foot brake if you're stopped for long enough for the stop/start to engage 

In the stop start cars I've used the engine stops the moment the car does.

[PlainName]

In most cars, automatic or manual, you lift your foot from the brake and the engine starts.

It could do that too, but you shouldn't be riding the foot brake if you're stopped for long enough for the stop/start to engage 

In the stop start cars I've used the engine stops the moment the car does.

Yes, I would expect them to. But riding the brake to keep it stopped isn't good practice. You stop, put it in neutral, activate the handbrake, foot off the brake. Fairly sure the engine should stay stopped until you dab the clutch to put it in gear. Perhaps putting your foot back on the brake might do it.

OTOH, I'm not going to go and buy one just to check that!

[PlainName]

OTOH, I'm not going to go and buy one just to check that!

So I did the next best thing and Googled. Came up with: https://www.dash-lights.com/dacia/stop-start-not-working/

Conditions for Engine Stop to Take Place

The vehicle has moved off from its original parked position and:

Dacia vehicles with automatic or sequential gearbox

    The gear selector is in position D or N
    The brake pedal is sufficiently depressed
    The accelerator pedal is not depressed
    The speed of the vehicle has remained at zero for at least one second

Dacia vehicles with a manual gearbox

    The gear selector is in neutral
    The clutch pedal is released
        The stop / start warning light Dacia Stop / Start Warning Light flashes if the clutch pedal is not sufficiently released

Driver Actions Preventing Engine Stop

In certain situations, such as getting ready to move off from a busy junction for example, you may not wish for engine stop to take place. To do this:

Automatic or sequential gearbox

Engine stop will be prevented by keeping the vehicle stationary without pressing too hard on the brake pedal.

Manual gearbox

Engine stop will be prevented by keeping the clutch pedal pressed right down.

The brake is needed for the auto for obvious reasons, but on the manual it is the clutch (and gearbox) that controls it.

[IDEngineer]

It is possible to override start-stop by briefly releasing the brake pedal immediately after the wheels stop turning. The systems I've had to endure won't stop the engine when this happens. At least for now.

We should not have to trick our cars to control them.

[Ranayna]

I don't mind the start-stop system in my VW Golf with automatic transmission at all.

A couple of observations i made:
- It only stops if i push the brakes harder that i would need to stay stopped. So i can control the system that way
- i can likewise prompt it to start by easing off the brake, but not enough to actually start rolling
- the system is only active when the motor is on temperature. Sometimes, on longer stops, the motor starts without my doing, indication not enough temperature
- I do have a button to disable start-stop, but it resets to active when i shut off the car

I think that especially the temperature thing is important, to minimize wear and tear. These systems have been very common in germany for quite some time. Yes, initially there was a lot of fear regarding excessive wear, but i have not heard about widespread issues in the last couple of years.

[JohanH]

I don't mind the start-stop system in my VW Golf with automatic transmission at all.

I bought a used diesel Golf before the pandemic, especially for driving to work. The 7-speed DSG automatic transmission was wonderful to drive (the first few years of these transmissions had bad reputation, but I think they'd figured out the issues). The start-stop system wasn't really necessary, because it rarely stopped. This is due to our cold weather and the thing that I mostly drove long distance without stopping. The battery in this car was also a lot under stress due to diesel heater during cold winter days and Android radio (and possibly other stuff) that consumed power even in powered off mode, so much that when the pandemic started and I worked from home it drained the battery before I disconnected it (I was able to rescue it from 0V by charging with a lab supply first). I even installed a maintenance charger because of this. My conclusion is that in this particular scenario and for the diesel engine, it would have needed a much larger battery to be effective. Otherwise I didn't mind the start-stop system. Eventually I sold the car, because now I'm working from home 95% of the time.

[tom66]

Most cars with start stop won't start stop much if you mostly drive in town, especially diesel cars, If you drive a lot on highways, they do their start stopping around town, but then that isn't a big part of their total operation, so the savings aren't great.

I don't like stop-start systems, but in my experience this isn't really true.  I had a VW Tiguan on loan for a few weeks while VW were fiddling with the hybrid battery in my car.  It stopped the engine pretty much at every opportunity, which on my commute was fairly frequent.  The exception was if you had the demister running (as that needed A/C) and the interior was at a certain high humidity level, and for  the first few minutes of the drive when the engine coolant was cold.  It would stop/start five times in a row.  It works OK with full auto transmissions, as the clutch is not engaged until the engine is started, but for standard manual (my dad's old Passat also had stop-start, though an older version) it made it harder to drive as the engine start would often happen just as you were depressing or releasing the clutch (depending on the park brake) which made for a jerkier start.

As for fuel savings, eh... Harder to say.

I definitely prefer the pure hybrid in my current vehicle as it sets off with the electric motor then clutches the engine in - you don't even notice the stop-start behaviour.   But I don't consider this a stop-start system, since it can drive at 70 mph on electric only if it needs to.    It's just "select the best powertrain" mode.

[SilverSolder]

I don't mind the start-stop system in my VW Golf with automatic transmission at all.

A couple of observations i made:
- It only stops if i push the brakes harder that i would need to stay stopped. So i can control the system that way
- i can likewise prompt it to start by easing off the brake, but not enough to actually start rolling
- the system is only active when the motor is on temperature. Sometimes, on longer stops, the motor starts without my doing, indication not enough temperature
- I do have a button to disable start-stop, but it resets to active when i shut off the car

I think that especially the temperature thing is important, to minimize wear and tear. These systems have been very common in germany for quite some time. Yes, initially there was a lot of fear regarding excessive wear, but i have not heard about widespread issues in the last couple of years.

Most likely, it also considers catalyst temperature, as a catalytic converter getting too cold will impair emissions performance dramatically.  This is also true of hybrid vehicles.

[Cubdriver]

I don't mind the start-stop system in my VW Golf with automatic transmission at all.

A couple of observations i made:
- It only stops if i push the brakes harder that i would need to stay stopped. So i can control the system that way
- i can likewise prompt it to start by easing off the brake, but not enough to actually start rolling
- the system is only active when the motor is on temperature. Sometimes, on longer stops, the motor starts without my doing, indication not enough temperature
- I do have a button to disable start-stop, but it resets to active when i shut off the car

I think that especially the temperature thing is important, to minimize wear and tear. These systems have been very common in germany for quite some time. Yes, initially there was a lot of fear regarding excessive wear, but i have not heard about widespread issues in the last couple of years.

Most likely, it also considers catalyst temperature, as a catalytic converter getting too cold will impair emissions performance dramatically.  This is also true of hybrid vehicles.

That's a very good point, too, especially given the recent trend by manufacturers to move the cat further and further upstream to get it closer to the engine so it heats faster and lights off sooner.  (That also has the added benefit of making it harder for scumbag thieves to saw it out to 'recycle' it for drug money - one of the big downsides to battery powered tools.)

-Pat

[snarkysparky]

The new radios in cars take so much current you are constantly prompted to start the engine.

A function that should use less than 1A at 12 volt for reasonable volume now needs much more to run all other crap.

I wondered why I saw soo many people sitting in their cars with the engine running in parking lots.   It's a real win for the environment i tell ya.

[IDEngineer]

I ran an experiment in our new Toyota Sienna Hybrid: I "turned on" the car (which is a totally silent act!) and then turned on the air conditioning. I wondered if it would instantly fire up the engine to provide rotating mechanical power, or if the drivetrain could turn the AC compressor from battery power alone. The latter turned out to be the case. The AC started up and got cool. My wife took longer than she'd promised so it ended up running for a while until the (smallish) battery ran down enough to cause the engine to start. This experiment confirmed my faith in Toyota's handling of the hybrid system.

I'm told that Teslas, with their substantially larger batteries, have a "pet mode" where the AC runs off the battery while parked to keep pets at a comfortable temperature. AC is pretty power consumptive so I don't know how long that would last, but it's a great idea. I sure hope nobody uses it to rationalize leaving their kids in the car though.

[tom66]

In modest, 25C temperatures with the interior at 18C and without too much direct sun, my car uses about 1kW for the air conditioning*.  On battery alone, it could run for about 5hrs.  A Toyota hybrid has a much smaller battery but I'd still expect 30 mins to be possible if it was at a high state of charge.  That is one other advantage of hybrids:  they do not need to idle the engine at the lights to keep the air con going.  You will find many stop-start cars will just stop the A/C and engine unless the cabin is above 25C or so, but you will also notice they get warm quickly doing this.  It's definitely a compromised technology.

A Tesla could probably run air con for several days if it was at a high state of charge to begin with.

*In the 42C heatwave we had recently though, the air con was up to 2.5kW, presumably as the sun sensors had detected the high level of IR which requires a lot more power to compensate for.

[coppice]

Most likely, it also considers catalyst temperature, as a catalytic converter getting too cold will impair emissions performance dramatically.  This is also true of hybrid vehicles.

I assume this is also why cars with particulate filters often don't stop start when used exclusively in town. They just keep trying to get things in the right state to start a cleaning cycle, and fail every time. That does, however, mean the filter gets more and more clogged.