Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.

[SilverSolder]

Having rented a Golf in England, yes. A terrible car.

My car is a Golf (MKV) and although I wouldn't have kids with it I quite like it. Certainly, I am happy enough not to be wanting something else, and I've driven a few other things.

What I like is that the driver assistance stuff has been obviously thought out and doesn't get in the way. But we're talking a model that's 15 years old now and there ain't no fancy touch stuff or owt. And lots and lots of wires.

I found the driver assistance stuff in the 2022 Golf irritating, in particular the alarm that goes off when the computer thinks you are not driving in the center of the lane.   It gets it wrong a lot, and starts squealing for no reason in some circumstances.  I don't recall other cars with lane departure monitoring having this problem.

Then there's the adaptive cruise control (that is meant to follow the car in front, if it drives slower than the cruise setpoint speed).  This system has the flaw that on a motorway, with multiple lanes, it gets confused by cars in the other lanes and annoyingly often decides to slow down for no good reason.   I haven't seen that in other cars with adaptive cruise control.

It's as if the systems are "maximally paranoid" to the point where it interferes with competence...

[IDEngineer]

I turn all of that stuff off immediately when I drive a rental car. I want to be making the decisions about vehicle operation, not someone else's algorithm.

Oh, and the single most annoying "feature" of all? Engines that turn off when you're stopped at a light or stop sign. Constantly restarting an engine is hard on the engine and the battery. And there is always a startup delay... I've avoided quite a few accidents by being able to instantly accelerate out of the way.

All of this is just another reason I'm thankful to be driving a Lotus, the Engineer's Car. It's a pure driving experience, period. Leave Out The Unnecessary Stuff (Lotus).

[PlainName]

I found the driver assistance stuff in the 2022 Golf irritating

Oh, not tried one that modern. I can easily believe it's a right pain in the ass though, and often think the the MkV was peak Golf, occurring just after the improvement in efficiency and ODBII stuff but before they ran out of simple things to do and start on the make work stuff.

[PlainName]

Oh, and the single most annoying "feature" of all? Engines that turn off when you're stopped at a light or stop sign.

Ah, now I drove two cars with that for a while, a Smart and a Dacia Duster. Have to say I quite liked the feature!

The Dacia had a stupidly low first gear, so second was always used to pull away. But sometimes the slightly too high gear would cause a stall, typically just as you've pulled onto a roundabout or similar. No problem: clutch in, wait 2 secs, off you go again.

I never found them too slow to start up, but it was a bit offputting to have the engine die unexpectedly the first dozen or fifty times.

[james_s]

I turn all of that stuff off immediately when I drive a rental car. I want to be making the decisions about vehicle operation, not someone else's algorithm.

Oh, and the single most annoying "feature" of all? Engines that turn off when you're stopped at a light or stop sign. Constantly restarting an engine is hard on the engine and the battery. And there is always a startup delay... I've avoided quite a few accidents by being able to instantly accelerate out of the way.

All of this is just another reason I'm thankful to be driving a Lotus, the Engineer's Car. It's a pure driving experience, period. Leave Out The Unnecessary Stuff (Lotus).

Those auto start-stop systems are the most ridiculous thing ever, some of them use a hybrid style motor-generator to start the ICE but many use a conventional starter motor and they result in greatly decreased life of the starting battery, and they are just irritating. They exist purely to exploit a loophole in the way idle emissions are measured. The real world fuel saving is negligible but they are able to game the system. I have no idea why they are still allowed.

[Cubdriver]

I turn all of that stuff off immediately when I drive a rental car. I want to be making the decisions about vehicle operation, not someone else's algorithm.

Oh, and the single most annoying "feature" of all? Engines that turn off when you're stopped at a light or stop sign. Constantly restarting an engine is hard on the engine and the battery. And there is always a startup delay... I've avoided quite a few accidents by being able to instantly accelerate out of the way.

All of this is just another reason I'm thankful to be driving a Lotus, the Engineer's Car. It's a pure driving experience, period. Leave Out The Unnecessary Stuff (Lotus).

Those auto start-stop systems are the most ridiculous thing ever, some of them use a hybrid style motor-generator to start the ICE but many use a conventional starter motor and they result in greatly decreased life of the starting battery, and they are just irritating. They exist purely to exploit a loophole in the way idle emissions are measured. The real world fuel saving is negligible but they are able to game the system. I have no idea why they are still allowed.

In my last two trips out to California, I wound up renting vehicles that had the auto stop-start.  The first was a Chevy Malibu, and the second was a VW Tiguan.  The system in the Malibu was nearly transparent - I barely felt it shut down and restart.  The VW on the other hand was very annoying - there would be a big lurch every time it started when the transmission reengaged and the drivetrain wound up - don't know if it was an issue with that particular vehicle or if it's endemic to the breed, but was very surprised that the Chevy was so much smoother and better refined than the VW.

That said, I don't like them, either - can't imagine that the fuel savings outweighs the added wear and tear on the starter, battery and charging system.  Like the 'automatic' seat belts of the late 80s/early 90s, it's a kluge.

-Pat

[SilverSolder]

[...]
That said, I don't like them [automatic shut-off/restart], either - can't imagine that the fuel savings outweighs the added wear and tear on the starter, battery and charging system.  Like the 'automatic' seat belts of the late 80s/early 90s, it's a kluge.

-Pat

Maybe the designs have been uprated to deal with it?  - it probably isn't the standard starter...

[Cubdriver]

[...]
That said, I don't like them [automatic shut-off/restart], either - can't imagine that the fuel savings outweighs the added wear and tear on the starter, battery and charging system.  Like the 'automatic' seat belts of the late 80s/early 90s, it's a kluge.

-Pat

Maybe the designs have been uprated to deal with it?  - it probably isn't the standard starter...

Considering the sticker shock I got the last time I priced a replacement starter 20+years ago, they damned well had better be - wanted a rebuilt for my friend's Toyota, which had a bad solenoid - contacts worn down.  Called the parts store for a rebuilt, and was quoted several hundred dollars - at the time had last paid under $50 some years earlier for a run of the mill remanufactured GM starter for my late 60s Pontiac.  I clarified with the guy on the phone that I wanted reman, not new.  He said that price WAS for the reman, the new one was around $500 IIRC.  Major sticker shock.  I repaired the worn contacts on the old one by soldering in a flattened piece of solid wire and reshaping them with a file.

Regardless, restarting the engine multiple times over a trip covering only a few miles can’t be doing the electrical system any favors.

-Pat

[IDEngineer]

To say nothing about the wear on the battery. It takes a while to restore the charge consumed by an engine start... what if you're in a heavy downtown area? Or rush hour freeway?

Plus starting an engine is one of the highest wear events because there's no oil pressure yet. Terrible idea to specifically increase the frequency of such events.

[pcprogrammer]

Don't they have a button to turn this feature off? We have a fairly new Ford Fiesta, and it does have the start stop feature, but I can turn it off and I did.

[Cubdriver]

Don't they have a button to turn this feature off? We have a fairly new Ford Fiesta, and it does have the start stop feature, but I can turn it off and I did.

To my knowledge they do.  I didn't bother with either of the rentals as they were only for two week periods and I wasn't driving them that much.  If I owned one, for sure it would be disabled.

-Pat

[IDEngineer]

So far my experience has been that when they do have a disable button, it defaults to enabled each time the car is started. I have spent plenty of time thinking about an auto-disable circuit for this "feature" while sitting in traffic....

[james_s]

Many of them do have a button, some don't. As was mentioned, it always defaults to on every time you start the car. I have seen aftermarket kits that plug in to effectively push the disable button automatically. Never had the misfortune of owning a vehicle with that idiotic system though.

[PlainName]

To say nothing about the wear on the battery. It takes a while to restore the charge consumed by an engine start... what if you're in a heavy downtown area? Or rush hour freeway?

The one's I used wouldn't stop if the battery wasn't fully topped up. And when stopped they would restart if the battery was getting a bit low (relative to topped up). I seem to recall seeing a stopped time of 30 seconds being the break-even of saving fuel, but of course nowadays just not polluting the place unnecessarily is a big thing (so much so you can get nicked here for sitting in a queue with the engine running for too long).

Plus starting an engine is one of the highest wear events because there's no oil pressure yet. Terrible idea to specifically increase the frequency of such events.

But it's not like a normal start. The engine is hot, the oil is at working viscosity and everything has a nice oil film. Takes nothing to restart compared to a cold start. I wouldn't be surprised if they have some clever stuff like keeping the valves open while the motor spins up and then it's just like a bump start - hardly anything required from the starter motor and the first proper compression stroke will get it going.

[mansaxel]

Current pet peeve is the insane amount of subsystems and helper devices required to get the ICE to work to present emission standards.

Not that I think there's anything wrong with the emission standards, they're probably all too weak because of all the lobby money spent by Big Car in Brussels and Washington, it is that people persist in using and designing ICE propulsion when it's so obviously in need of crutches and braces to even exist.

With their warts and all, current electrical is so much better.

[PlainName]

it is that people persist in using and designing ICE propulsion when it's so obviously in need of crutches and braces to even exist.

With their warts and all, current electrical is so much better.

Not this again. For some it is great and for others it's just not practical. But the biggie for most is it's too expensive. There isn't a cheap EV. Give me £26,000 gratis and I'll happily get an EV tomorrow.

[IDEngineer]

All that complexity is to wring out more efficiency. The basic ICE, like a basic turbine engine, is relatively simple. But the curve goes asymptotic as you seek ever greater efficiency. Ever seen a modern turbine engine with the cowlings removed? Sensors, harnesses, plumbing everywhere. Yet the core is just a rotating shaft with some blades.

[Nominal Animal]

Brushless electric motors are very nice, and pack surprising amounts of punch for their size.  I love'm.

The problem is the damn energy storage, especially if you happen to live near the Arctic Circle (Nordic countries, Canada, Alaska).
Even the lifetime of the current battery technology really remains to be seen, when ambient temperature swings between -30°C and +30°C.
ICEs have no issues in that regard.

I'm also waiting to see how well the battery packs will be recycled, or whether they'll actually end up in landfills and in Africa instead.

[james_s]

Brushless electric motors are very nice, and pack surprising amounts of punch for their size.  I love'm.

The problem is the damn energy storage, especially if you happen to live near the Arctic Circle (Nordic countries, Canada, Alaska).
Even the lifetime of the current battery technology really remains to be seen, when ambient temperature swings between -30°C and +30°C.
ICEs have no issues in that regard.

I'm also waiting to see how well the battery packs will be recycled, or whether they'll actually end up in landfills and in Africa instead.

There are a few edge cases like that where current EV tech may have some issues, although having been to Calgary and Edmonton a few times, I'd argue that ICE is not completely free of issues, at the time I went many parking lots had scores of electrical outlets to plug in the engine block heaters. I remember someone telling me they had trouble with diesel fuel gelling too although I don't know whether modern stuff still has that issue. There is no reason the same can't be done for battery packs, although it makes sense to just draw some energy out of the batteries themselves, or from the charger.

We should have some lifetime data out there by now, at least in the early stages. My friend recently bought a 2013 Tesla S, that's nearly 10 years old and the battery in it is in good shape still. Commercially viable EVs have been around for more than decade now. Given the amount of valuable lithium and nickel contained in the batteries I would be shocked if they were not already being recycled.

[james_s]

All that complexity is to wring out more efficiency. The basic ICE, like a basic turbine engine, is relatively simple. But the curve goes asymptotic as you seek ever greater efficiency. Ever seen a modern turbine engine with the cowlings removed? Sensors, harnesses, plumbing everywhere. Yet the core is just a rotating shaft with some blades.

"A rotating shaft with some blades" is grossly oversimplifying the mechanical part of the engine core. The degree of precision and the strength of the components is extremely impressive. The internal parts rotate at thousands of RPM under insanely high loads with ridiculously tight clearances. The compressor stage in a modern jet engine absorbs tens of thousands of horsepower, generated by turbine discs that are operating at high enough temperature to make them glow. I would argue that the internal rotating assembly and stator are at least as impressive as the ancillary systems wrapped around it that deliver fuel, oil and air to the various components and sensors that monitor operation. A tremendous amount of engineering has gone into it, including entirely new alloys being developed.

[CatalinaWOW]

I guess we get to call you shocked james_s.  Battery recycling is still in the prototype stage.  The reasons are fairly obvious if you think about it.  Lead acid batteries are basically a compartmented plastic dish with half a dozen big lead plates and filled with a liquid acid.  Recycling involved popping the lid off, dumping the acid out and the pulling half a dozen parts out.  These batteries are a simple rectangular prisms and even the largest ones can be moved (barely) without special equipment. The batteries in a modern EV are in a crash proof case that is sometimes a structural element of the vehicle.  It requires heavy equipment to move and there is no standardized form factor.  Inside this case there are electronics, cooling systems and hundreds of thousands of tiny cylindrical batteries, each of which is its own lightly armored compartment.  Inside that is a tightly wound coil that has to be unwound to separate the goodies.  It will take a lot of work to develop and then build out capacity of an economical recycling process.

[james_s]

I guess we get to call you shocked james_s.  Battery recycling is still in the prototype stage.  The reasons are fairly obvious if you think about it.  Lead acid batteries are basically a compartmented plastic dish with half a dozen big lead plates and filled with a liquid acid.  Recycling involved popping the lid off, dumping the acid out and the pulling half a dozen parts out.  These batteries are a simple rectangular prisms and even the largest ones can be moved (barely) without special equipment. The batteries in a modern EV are in a crash proof case that is sometimes a structural element of the vehicle.  It requires heavy equipment to move and there is no standardized form factor.  Inside this case there are electronics, cooling systems and hundreds of thousands of tiny cylindrical batteries, each of which is its own lightly armored compartment.  Inside that is a tightly wound coil that has to be unwound to separate the goodies.  It will take a lot of work to develop and then build out capacity of an economical recycling process.

Do you have some data to back that up? According to this https://spectrum.ieee.org/lithiumion-battery-recycling-finally-takes-off-in-north-america-and-europe they're already building the largest lithium battery recycling plant in the world, not the first. Lead acid battery recycling doesn't actually work anything like what you describe, at least not on an industrial scale. The way it is done now is the batteries are dumped into a massive machine that grinds them up whole. The acid drains out and is recovered, then the shredded material goes through a process that separates out the lead from the plastic. Lithium battery recycling could be done in a similar manner, grind them up, separate the materials, nobody is going to sit there with a can opener cutting open millions of cells and unwinding the inner parts. There are also surplus dealers that sell used EV batteries to individuals, so many of them will have a second life after they are no longer fit for propelling a car.

Actually here, I found a video showing the process in the Volkswagen recycling plant which is already in operation.

Here's one of a lead acid recycling plant.

[IDEngineer]

Yes, I simplified the internals of a turbine. But there's some precise tech in BLDC motors, and batteries touch so many separate disciplines it's hard to name them all.

And then... to simply get a BLDC spinning is simple. To do it efficiently, with precision and regen? Now you're layering up the technology, just like advanced ICE's and turbines.

Bottom line: Most technologies are simple to get started. But they get increasingly complex as you demand more from them. A basic two-stroke gas engine with reed valves is extremely mechanically and electrically simple but inefficient and dirty. So too a basic implementation of four-strokes, turbines, and BLDC's. Want them "better"? Prepare for complexity.

[CatalinaWOW]

The Volkswagon process is exactly what I would call a prototype.  Very labor intensive and not very large scale.  Not clear how economics would work out on that.  And color me surprised that they are able to shred the batteries, even after deep discharge of the packs.   Shows great confidence in the balancing circuits of the packs.  But obviously it can be done. 

The largest plant in north america that you reference is by their statement going to be able to process 55 million lbs (25 metric kilotons) of battery packs per year.  The lightest Tesla batteries weigh about 1000 lbs so this plant under generous assumptions will be able to keep up with production of 55 thousand vehicles a year, or about a quarter of Teslas current production.   Without even talking about plug in hybrids or other manufacturers of electric vehicles.

Obviously recycling will happen, if for no other reason than regulatory requirements.  But there is going to be a lot of sweat, blood and tears putting it into place.

I will end by quoting two paragraphs from the article on the Kodak plant site project.

"These startups aim to automate, streamline, and clean up what has been a labor-intensive, inefficient, and dirty process. Traditionally, battery recycling involves either burning them to recover some of the metals, or else grinding the batteries up and treating the resulting “black mass" with solvents.

Battery recycling doesn't just need to be cleaner—it also needs to be reliably profitable, says Jeff Spangenberger, director of the ReCell Center, a battery-recycling research collaboration supported by the U.S. Department of Energy. “Recycling batteries is better than if we mine new materials and throw the batteries away," Spangenberger says. “But recycling companies have trouble making profits. We need to make it cost effective, so that people have an incentive to bring their batteries back."

[IDEngineer]

Obviously recycling will happen, if for no other reason than regulatory requirements.  But there is going to be a lot of sweat, blood and tears putting it into place.

And that recycling will have regulatory requirements and oversight, too, if only because bureaucrats feel the need to justify their existence and budgets. If manufacturing the batteries requires regulation and oversight, recycling of old used batteries will be at LEAST as heavily regulated and monitored. All of that will add cost and complexity to the EV marketplace.

There is no free lunch. EV's have their place - post office vehicles, local mass transportation, any application that involves stop-and-go movement in a relatively small geographic area. They are ideal for such applications. But EV's are worse than useless for long-haul transportation of people or products because of their relatively short range and relatively lengthy refueling time, especially as the total mass increases (like for over the road trucking).

The ideal general-purpose drivetrain technology is hybrid because it combines the recapture of the pure EV and the range of the ICE. Ironically, the railroads have known and used this for decades in their diesel-electric locomotives. We are simply rediscovering what has actually been known for a very long time.

My family just suited action to the words by buying a new Toyota Sienna Hybrid minivan. We've had it about six weeks and just finished our first long distance road trip with it, so we have some experience now with local, mixed, and all-highway driving. It's basically perfect. We get ridiculous mileage around town, approaching 50 MPG; we were closing in on 1000 miles before we ever had to put fuel in it. Mixed driving sees around 40 MPG. The road trip... well, there the EV aspect yields basically nothing because there's very little braking, but we still get mid 30's for MPG and the range is over 600 miles per tank. There's simply no other drivetrain that can deliver that combination of short-haul efficiency and long-haul range. I think Toyota has nailed it with their hybrid technology because it's suitable for almost every family situation.