FranLab is getting evicted

[james_s]

That might work for your climate however in those that have high spring growth and then dry off in summer an untended property becomes a huge fire risk to others nearby.
Here in NZ holdings over a Hectare or 2 require livestock to keep the grass under control which require tending to, fences to retain them and handling/trucking facilities.
It's not unusual for some to relocate into a rural paradise only to retreat to a urban environment after getting a taste of the work a rural property requires.

That's not really an issue here. The land was doing just fine before humans arrived on the scene and there are lots of natural areas around the state that are not actively maintained. If there's a grass field it is helpful to mow it now and then, the forests largely take care of themselves. I grew up in a rural area that got overrun by people fleeing California and other areas so it's what I'm familiar with, I'm not a city person, the city came to me and I hate it.

[james_s]

I think you are lacking empathy. Not everyone has your drive, your ambition, your goals, your ranking of hardships, your desires. And quite a few may even pretty close to your ideal but nevertheless be derailed by circumstances.

Empathy is not really my strength, but I simply don't think I am all that exceptional and I did it, so I think if I can do it anyone can do it, if they make it a priority. I grew up in a low income household right alongside a lot of friends and acquaintances in similar and in many cases better circumstances and I watched so many of them piss away money on all manner of stuff they "needed" which I was able to get by without. They bought nice cars, new furniture, ate out often at restaurants, went drinking in bars, ran up their credit cards, etc. I have multiple friends that have consistently earned twice what I do and yet they're always broke because they are careless with money and fail to prioritize. I've seen people make excuses after excuses for the results of their poor life choices. It's not like this is some hypothetical situation, it's based on my own observations of those around me. Far too many people act like Fran, they create a rigid set of requirements and if they can't stay within all of those requirements they give up and start making excuses.

[james_s]

It's definitely easier to eat healthier when you have more time, though.  If your earnings only come in because you work long hours, live far away from where you work (consequentially having a long commute) and then add in the stress of doing all of this, then you easily get a vicious cycle where cheap crap food just makes some problems go away for a bit.

It takes 5 minutes to make a sandwich. Pasta is another quick and easy thing, or whip up a quick stir fry, or a burger, or all manner of other things. Or eat an apple or a banana, they're healthy, inexpensive and require no prep at all. Throw a can of soup on the stove, I recently bought cans of clam chowder on sale for $1.50 each, it stores for a year or more in the pantry, takes 5 minutes to warm on the stove and is an entire meal in a can. There are entire cookbooks full of quick and easy meals. If you buy fruits and vegetables that are in season and meat that is on sale you can save a lot of money. The bread machine I mentioned cost me $10 at the time and making a loaf of fresh bread cost very little and took just a few minutes of my time, the machine did all the work. It is just as quick in many cases to make something to eat at home as it is to eat out and it is so much cheaper. You have to factor in the time spent working to pay for eating out when you calculate the time required. I've known so many people that eat out all the time and flat out insist they can't cook and frankly I think that is ridiculous, you don't have to make a 6 course gourmet meal, there are lots of simple foods that can be prepared as easily as tying one's shoes, food preparation is a basic life skill that everyone needs.

[nctnico]

It's definitely easier to eat healthier when you have more time, though.  If your earnings only come in because you work long hours, live far away from where you work (consequentially having a long commute) and then add in the stress of doing all of this, then you easily get a vicious cycle where cheap crap food just makes some problems go away for a bit.

It takes 5 minutes to make a sandwich. Pasta is another quick and easy thing, or whip up a quick stir fry, or a burger, or all manner of other things. Or eat an apple or a banana, they're healthy, inexpensive and require no prep at all. Throw a can of soup on the stove, I recently bought cans of clam chowder on sale for $1.50 each, it stores for a year or more in the pantry, takes 5 minutes to warm on the stove and is an entire meal in a can.

Or just get one of those higher end, low salt microwave meals. Super easy, cheap (compared to buying seperate ingredients) and healthy.

[EEVblog]

That's a bargain compared to renting, any way you slice it, renting costs more in the long run, usually a LOT more and when you move out you have nothing. My house cost me ~90% of my income when I bought it, I had two roommates for several years to make ends meet. It is faulty logic to look at renting a place on one's own, get roommates, find a second job, do whatever it takes, it will be harder in the short term but much easier and better in the long term. The problem is that people want instant gratification, they have rigid requirements that they insist be met NOW, whereas I was always looking ~10 years out. I chose to sacrifice in my 20s so that I'd be comfortable in my 30s and beyond.

The problem is it doesn't matter how much you want it, if you have £1,000 a month rent and a £1,800 a month paycheque (after tax figure) -- which is very typical for an average earner in this country -- you are never going to be able to save up enough to qualify for a mortgage on anything remotely worth living in.

You basically end up racing the clock as your income needs to grow larger to qualify for a shorter term mortgage.  I know someone who managed to beat this and buy a house aged 45 after losing his first home to business failure but he had to put something like £60k down which isn't trivial at all.

I think it's very easy to say "just earn more" but if you have limited skills your earning potential is... limited.  Longer term this has other implications too, the rise of AI, self driving vehicles etc completely changes the job market for many.

Depends on your circumstances. You may have options like to commute further, change jobs, or even move cities, states or even countries if your flexibility allows. Even better if you work from home and are single with no dependents.

[tautech]

That might work for your climate however in those that have high spring growth and then dry off in summer an untended property becomes a huge fire risk to others nearby.
Here in NZ holdings over a Hectare or 2 require livestock to keep the grass under control which require tending to, fences to retain them and handling/trucking facilities.
It's not unusual for some to relocate into a rural paradise only to retreat to a urban environment after getting a taste of the work a rural property requires.

That's not really an issue here. The land was doing just fine before humans arrived on the scene and there are lots of natural areas around the state that are not actively maintained. If there's a grass field it is helpful to mow it now and then, the forests largely take care of themselves. I grew up in a rural area that got overrun by people fleeing California and other areas so it's what I'm familiar with, I'm not a city person, the city came to me and I hate it.

Understand that but we need not make generalisations.

Every area has its issues and some of West Aussie where my son lives landowners are required to maintain a worked ground strip around the perimeter of their properties as a firebreak. I'm not aware of anywhere here that requires such.

In NZ authorities properly fucked land management in the 60's allowing wholesale subdivision of the small farmlets for a 'perceived' lifestyle need which only removed the surrounding properties option of upsizing to preserve economies of scale and also hastened urban growth swallowing up lots of productive land that was originally small blocks due to its fertility.
Substandard use of the land resource was the end result. 

[sokoloff]

Citing this view of reality might be lacking in empathy, but it doesn't make the view of reality incorrect.

If people are happy enough with their own drive, ambition, goals, ranking of hardships, and desires and the outcomes that those result in, there's no problem at all. I'm glad they're happy. If they're not happy, I'd urge them to change something.

Perhaps the reality of the situation can be accepted whilst also not accepting it as something unchangeable?  It is certainly possible to make society fairer.

Do you mean fairer or more equal, because those are often in opposition?

It seems fair to me that someone with more drive, ambition, and goals would^* out-earn someone with less of those things. Enforcing relatively equal outcomes would be reducing fairness IMO.

^* - at least on average and all else being equal

[tom66]

Citing this view of reality might be lacking in empathy, but it doesn't make the view of reality incorrect.

If people are happy enough with their own drive, ambition, goals, ranking of hardships, and desires and the outcomes that those result in, there's no problem at all. I'm glad they're happy. If they're not happy, I'd urge them to change something.

Perhaps the reality of the situation can be accepted whilst also not accepting it as something unchangeable?  It is certainly possible to make society fairer.

Do you mean fairer or more equal, because those are often in opposition?

It seems fair to me that someone with more drive, ambition, and goals would^* out-earn someone with less of those things. Enforcing relatively equal outcomes would be reducing fairness IMO.

^* - at least on average and all else being equal

Fairer.  I don't have any opposition to rich people, well, being rich.  I do have a problem with those at the lower end doing the hard, necessary work in society struggling by.

I mean in the UK we have stories of nurses, teachers, and social care workers using food banks.  We live in a first world country, that should be unacceptable.

[PlainName]

If people spent as much effort on actually earning more...

I think you are lacking empathy. Not everyone has your drive, your ambition, your goals, your ranking of hardships, your desires. And quite a few may even pretty close to your ideal but nevertheless be derailed by circumstances.

Citing this view of reality might be lacking in empathy, but it doesn't make the view of reality incorrect.

If people are happy enough with their own drive, ambition, goals, ranking of hardships, and desires and the outcomes that those result in, there's no problem at all. I'm glad they're happy. If they're not happy, I'd urge them to change something.

Sure. I was railing against the "I'm a success so if anyone else isn't they're pillocks" insinuation of that post. There are many reasons why others aren't a success, not all of them their fault.

As someone notes, 30 years ago you could afford a house without have to wear rags and live in a cave. Anyone starting out then may have considered that they would put off buying a house because they need to move around to work their way up the career ladder, and once they are established they can put down roots. If they'd done that, which would have sounded sensible at that time, they've be royally screwed now. Is that their fault because they didn't have the perfect skillset and 20/20 foresight that james_s often displays? If so, then we are en route to implying that anyone not in the upper realms of IQ are substandard retards who deserve everything bad thing they get.

[nctnico]

Citing this view of reality might be lacking in empathy, but it doesn't make the view of reality incorrect.

If people are happy enough with their own drive, ambition, goals, ranking of hardships, and desires and the outcomes that those result in, there's no problem at all. I'm glad they're happy. If they're not happy, I'd urge them to change something.

Perhaps the reality of the situation can be accepted whilst also not accepting it as something unchangeable?  It is certainly possible to make society fairer.

Do you mean fairer or more equal, because those are often in opposition?

It seems fair to me that someone with more drive, ambition, and goals would^* out-earn someone with less of those things. Enforcing relatively equal outcomes would be reducing fairness IMO.

^* - at least on average and all else being equal

Fairer.  I don't have any opposition to rich people, well, being rich.  I do have a problem with those at the lower end doing the hard, necessary work in society struggling by.

I mean in the UK we have stories of nurses, teachers, and social care workers using food banks.  We live in a first world country, that should be unacceptable.

IMHO many of these problems stem from property prices being too high. In large parts of Europe, people have to spend too much of their income for having a roof over their heads. In addition, shops & restaurants need to pay so much for the buildings they are in that they have to inflate their prices. Germany seems to be an exception though. Shops and restaurants are significantly cheaper over there. In Germany we typically pay half for a similar meal at a similar restaurant compared to Belgium, the Netherlands or France.

[james_s]

I don't have a perfect skillset or 20/20 foresight, I simply knew early on that I wanted to buy a house, I made that my #1 priority, and focused all of my available resources on making that happen. I figured owning a house was the hardest goal and the most beneficial down the road, so I'd work on that first and figure the rest out later so that's what I did. I've never been a particularly high earner, I do ok but I'm nowhere near the median in the region I live in. The only thing I did that was special was prioritize. I know lots of people that earn more than me, are smarter than me, etc that had different priorities and it cost them. I've watched numerous people make one bad choice after another and it's always the fault of something else that they're not getting ahead. They can't do this, can't do that, this just won't work, etc, throw up their hands in despair. This is precisely what Fran has been doing with the housing thing.

[EEVblog]

I've watched numerous people make one bad choice after another and it's always the fault of something else that they're not getting ahead. They can't do this, can't do that, this just won't work, etc, throw up their hands in despair. This is precisely what Fran has been doing with the housing thing.

The thing that gets me is that she has always been in a good position lifestyle-wise to make a change to home ownership. Single, no dependents, owns and run her own business, and has a somewhat large space need (2000sqft) but that lends itself to a large house/barn thing. She has even lived in many different places in different states.
Sure, some of those things like being self employed sucks on the loan side of things, but surely not insurmountable.
I know she loves Philly and the lifestyle, and there is the whole trans fear thing, but trading future financial security for that is obviously turning out to be the wrong choice. If the evictions and rising rents weren't enough, now it's medical insurance expenses as the bonus whammy.
At 55yo or so, it's probably not too late, but every month doing the thing financially without change means the future outlook is bleak 

[Bud]

Meal portions at food courts in malls here are huge. Once a week on Saturdays I go buy a 1 person meal at a local mall at one of those "cook in front of you" outlets , and it is enough to feed 3 adults in my family. Cost is about $15 Canuck buck, so it is $5 per person to eat lunch. Sometimes we even have leftover food left for next day. This is ridiculous how big meals are but that works in our favor. Other days of week we cook food at home.

[PlainName]

I simply knew early on that I wanted to buy a house, I made that my #1 priority

That's great, and well done for getting to where you are. The beef I have is that you make it sound like anyone who didn't replicate that is a lazy, profligate ne'er do well.

With regards Fran and similar, if someone gets fixated or can't handle something, you're going to say it's their fault. Superficially, you'd be right. But do we say that about people with agoraphobia, claustrophobia and similar? How about people that are so unable to handle stuff that they take their own lives in preference? Hey, if you can not only survive and do well, it's their choice/fault to die, right?

I think it's pretty clear that Fran has serious issues over this. No-one is going to help by banging on about how it wouldn't and didn't happen to them, so Fran could just get her act together and Do It. No, she can't. If she we able to I have no doubt that she wouldn't be in this situation. It may seem a trivial thing to you to get out of this rut, but clearly it is beyond her, and I don't see that it is necessarily her fault any more than being in the wrong body is her fault.

[tom66]

IMHO many of these problems stem from property prices being too high. In large parts of Europe, people have to spend too much of their income for having a roof over their heads. In addition, shops & restaurants need to pay so much for the buildings they are in that they have to inflate their prices. Germany seems to be an exception though. Shops and restaurants are significantly cheaper over there. In Germany we typically pay half for a similar meal at a similar restaurant compared to Belgium, the Netherlands or France.

I seem to recall many large German cities have some kind of rent control system, and really good rights for tenants.

I don't think it's anywhere as good as owning property but the idea of better tenants rights sounds like a really good idea.  We ended up leaving a home we'd lived in for 2 years because our landlord wanted to sell the home.  It makes it really hard to set up roots in a place if you have to move every few years.

[nctnico]

I simply knew early on that I wanted to buy a house, I made that my #1 priority

That's great, and well done for getting to where you are. The beef I have is that you make it sound like anyone who didn't replicate that is a lazy, profligate ne'er do well.

With regards Fran and similar, if someone gets fixated or can't handle something, you're going to say it's their fault. Superficially, you'd be right. But do we say that about people with agoraphobia, claustrophobia and similar? How about people that are so unable to handle stuff that they take their own lives in preference? Hey, if you can not only survive and do well, it's their choice/fault to die, right?

You make it sound harsh but having dealt with somebody who did kill himself, I can see (not understand though) how some people are so incapable of taking control over their own lives that it just turns into a mess no matter how hard they try. Even if people seek help, they have to be able to listen and make the necessary changes. The saying 'you can lead a horse to water, but it must drink by itself' is so very true. Or put differently: what is your solution to Fran's situation? The solution is glaringly obvious to many but nevertheless nothing happens that improves Fran's situation. Should we appoint a curator to take care of her?

Personally I agree a lot with what james_s wrote in his post. It is exactly how I have organised my life as well. Work your ass off to get a good structure (home / income) in place, set the right priorities and start benefitting from the hard work later on. It is a good way to set yourself up even if you hit some bumps in the road.

[nctnico]

IMHO many of these problems stem from property prices being too high. In large parts of Europe, people have to spend too much of their income for having a roof over their heads. In addition, shops & restaurants need to pay so much for the buildings they are in that they have to inflate their prices. Germany seems to be an exception though. Shops and restaurants are significantly cheaper over there. In Germany we typically pay half for a similar meal at a similar restaurant compared to Belgium, the Netherlands or France.

I seem to recall many large German cities have some kind of rent control system, and really good rights for tenants.

There are similar regulations in the Netherlands with price caps based on the size & condition of the homes for social housing. There are plans to extend that system to homes rented on the free market as well to lower housing costs for people that rent homes.

[EEVblog]

Video.
Seems confirmed that she has immediate medical issues, and at 6:30 says it's going to be an ongoing $15k-20k/year thing  as there are out of pocket expenses the insurance doesn't cover.

[james_s]

That's great, and well done for getting to where you are. The beef I have is that you make it sound like anyone who didn't replicate that is a lazy, profligate ne'er do well.

With regards Fran and similar, if someone gets fixated or can't handle something, you're going to say it's their fault. Superficially, you'd be right. But do we say that about people with agoraphobia, claustrophobia and similar? How about people that are so unable to handle stuff that they take their own lives in preference? Hey, if you can not only survive and do well, it's their choice/fault to die, right?

I think it's pretty clear that Fran has serious issues over this. No-one is going to help by banging on about how it wouldn't and didn't happen to them, so Fran could just get her act together and Do It. No, she can't. If she we able to I have no doubt that she wouldn't be in this situation. It may seem a trivial thing to you to get out of this rut, but clearly it is beyond her, and I don't see that it is necessarily her fault any more than being in the wrong body is her fault.

But it is their fault. I get it, it sucks, life is hard, life isn't fair, mental illness sucks, circumstances suck, but it is what it is, you either find a way to work with what you've got or you fail. Sure there are people that genuinely got screwed over, they were dealt a lousy hand and that part isn't their fault, but those aren't really the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about the ones that have options but they don't take them, or they repeatedly make bad choices. I certainly didn't have the best circumstances growing up, I lived with a single parent just barely scraping by in a dumpy apartment after my parents got divorced when I was 13. I worked a crappy fast food job and tried the college thing for a while but dropped out when I realized I couldn't afford it and was not really the greatest student. But I didn't just give up, and I didn't paint myself into a corner with rigid requirements, I did what I had to do so that I'd never be in the position my mom was in of having to scrape up enough money to pay the rent.

I don't know, maybe some people just can't hack it, maybe they're not cut out for life, but many people COULD if they would just focus on taking the necessary steps rather than coming up with reasons why they can't. For years I've been dealing with a good friend that is under-employed, I occasionally come across jobs that he'd be a good fit for and send them his way, he says oh they won't hire him, he's not good enough at this or that language or skill, he's not a "real" developer, etc etc etc, despite the fact that I've seen him create rather complex embedded projects from scratch, write his own drivers in C for displays and RF modules and such, I've told him not to disqualify himself, apply and see what happens, worst case he doesn't get hired. I've all but given up because it's always excuses why it won't work and it drives me nuts. Of course it won't work IF YOU DON"T TRY.

These are the people I'm talking about, the ones that refuse to see the options that are in front of their own nose, refuse to try, refuse to prioritize and instead just come up with excuses and reasons that they will fail, before they've even started. If a person won't even try then I have little sympathy when they fail. Of course you will fail if that's what you set out to do.

[james_s]

There are similar regulations in the Netherlands with price caps based on the size & condition of the homes for social housing. There are plans to extend that system to homes rented on the free market as well to lower housing costs for people that rent homes.

That seems like a disaster in the making. Seattle is a very progressive city near me, they have passed some strong renter protection laws and the result was exactly what most rational people would expect, thousands of small landlords sold their rental properties on the free market resulting in a shortage of rental properties which results in higher rent. Trying to control prices always has unintended consequences.

[EEVblog]

These are the people I'm talking about, the ones that refuse to see the options that are in front of their own nose, refuse to try, refuse to prioritize and instead just come up with excuses and reasons that they will fail, before they've even started. If a person won't even try then I have little sympathy when they fail. Of course you will fail if that's what you set out to do.

In Fran's case I think she has tried, like in terms of trying to get a loan, multipe times from what I gather, but she seems to have now given up on that and simply says it's not possible.
Add in that she won't consider moving out of Philly, and the situation is now hopeless.
Well, it's not completely hopeless, you can buy a 2000sqft place in Philly for $80k, but, well, here you go:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2524-26-N-27th-St-Philadelphia-PA-19132/10310452_zpid/?

[EEVblog]

These are the people I'm talking about, the ones that refuse to see the options that are in front of their own nose, refuse to try, refuse to prioritize and instead just come up with excuses and reasons that they will fail, before they've even started. If a person won't even try then I have little sympathy when they fail. Of course you will fail if that's what you set out to do.

In Fran's case I think she has tried, like in terms of trying to get a loan, multipe times from what I gather, but she seems to have now given up on that and simply says it's not possible.
Add in that she won't consider moving out of Philly, and the situation is now hopeless.
Well, it's not completely hopeless, you can buy a 2000sqft place in Philly for $80k, but, well, here you go:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2524-26-N-27th-St-Philadelphia-PA-19132/10310452_zpid/?

Actually, I've seen way worse neighbourhoods in Philly
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@39.9944218,-75.1760258,3a,60y,309.7h,86.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snYKbnfG1QJJH7Tv3qRPmfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Throw in another $20k for a cheap DIY renno and that's FranLab 4.0

[james_s]

In Fran's case I think she has tried, like in terms of trying to get a loan, multipe times from what I gather, but she seems to have now given up on that and simply says it's not possible.
Add in that she won't consider moving out of Philly, and the situation is now hopeless.
Well, it's not completely hopeless, you can buy a 2000sqft place in Philly for $80k, but, well, here you go:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2524-26-N-27th-St-Philadelphia-PA-19132/10310452_zpid/?

It's the "won't consider moving out of Philly" part that makes it hopeless. We all know there are other decent places to live, and you'd be hard pressed to do worse than Philly unless your idea of "decent" is very strange. If anything, it's the medical issue that makes things hopeless. Out of all the factors at play, that is probably the only one that quite possibly lacks an element of choice. We can all make choices that reduce the risk of serious medical problems but even healthy people that take good care of themselves sometimes get seriously ill through no fault of their own.

That place is a bit of a dump, but hey, $80k for a roof and four walls, a person could do worse. Beats living in a tent on the sidewalk.

[james_s]

That's odd, there's a streetlight mounted the wrong way around pointed right at a building on that street, never seen that before.

[EEVblog]

In Fran's case I think she has tried, like in terms of trying to get a loan, multipe times from what I gather, but she seems to have now given up on that and simply says it's not possible.
Add in that she won't consider moving out of Philly, and the situation is now hopeless.
Well, it's not completely hopeless, you can buy a 2000sqft place in Philly for $80k, but, well, here you go:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2524-26-N-27th-St-Philadelphia-PA-19132/10310452_zpid/?

It's the "won't consider moving out of Philly" part that makes it hopeless. We all know there are other decent places to live, and you'd be hard pressed to do worse than Philly unless your idea of "decent" is very strange.

I can find no shortage of places under $200k within an hours drive of Philly.
Even if you want a huge block, for example, $180k, 2391sqft home on 1.39 acress of land, need a complete reno, but wouldn't be too hard. No one would bother you there, and the area looks nice.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/366-Hoffmansville-Rd-Bechtelsville-PA-19505/9920135_zpid/