FranLab is getting evicted

[EEVblog]

More serious: I'm not sure whether it is wise to go around and buy homes for your kids. Setup a fund if you can: definitely yes. But you can't know what their circumstances will be as where they end up living won't be their choice entirely.

Yes, but a house can be just another investment vehicle. They could always sell it, or use it as collateral to get a loan for another place they want.

[nctnico]

More serious: I'm not sure whether it is wise to go around and buy homes for your kids. Setup a fund if you can: definitely yes. But you can't know what their circumstances will be as where they end up living won't be their choice entirely.

Yes, but a house can be just another investment vehicle. They could always sell it, or use it as collateral to get a loan for another place they want.

True but personally I would use an investment fund (which I actually did) in order to spread the risks better and make sure to get some interest.

[MK14]

I may be substantially going against the flow of opinions, in this thread.
But as I see it, I somewhat understand, Frans thinking, ways and reasoning.

The thing is, Fran has managed to create a finely tuned/balanced, business (or well paid fun hobby), with their YouTube channel setup.  It allows them to spend the huge number of dedicated hours, producing the stuff (hardware, Videos and things).
In relative peace and quiet, with few or no, distractions.  Where they can actually live in their workspace (which many people, would probably HATE to do, in practice).

Because these are properly rented, real purpose built or modified, factory/warehouse/industrial areas.  It means they can setup fairly large equipment/machines (as necessary/required), with proper access, ventilation, safety, floor types, powerful electrical connections, etc.

If the situation changes (for business reasons from time to time).  E.g. A (hypothetical) Guitar accessory, sales dramatically petering out.  They can close down that particular (1 of 4), rented out buildings/areas.  Then (when the contract runs out), just move out of that area, and close down that particular functionality/aspect (of their business or very serious money making hobby).

Similarly, if one of their areas of interest, significantly increases in size.  Such as a very large load of old/vintage film stock, so the processing/storage area, of that part of their enterprise, needs to double or even triple the space required, compared to the original plans.  They can upgrade their rented space, to somewhere bigger.

The problem with actually owning the building is that you then have to (there are alternatives, such as renting it out, but lets forget that for now), sell it.  Which is easier said than done.

If the building they purchase, is really a home which includes extensive workshop areas.  Then owning and running that home, comes with a lot of additional responsibilities and distractions.  Such as gardens/yards, repairs, neighbors, neighborhood, local district requirements, zoning issues, etc.

I suspect that many peoples, perceptions, of various neighborhoods/areas, in the country they live.  Is going to have all sorts of biases, prejudices, past experiences (both good and/or bad ones), etc.
So it is all too easy for use to look at their opinions on where they want to live, and say "you should move to a much cheaper area".  But life is NOT as simple as that.

Individuals are individuals, NOT robotic computers, which only do 100%, the right/logical/sensible thing all the time.  Otherwise, many of use, would be driving round in very small engined tiny cars, for driving from A to B.  Rather than the (potentially) much bigger, sportier/luxury/SUV or what ever, that (I presume), many of use, really drive.

It is a bit like, if a fellow EEVblog member, photographed all their equipment.  If they had 10 or 20 Oscilloscopes, 10 multimeters, and 9 power supplies.  We could all chime out, that common sense says that 1 or 2 oscilloscopes, 1 or 2 power supplies, and perhaps 2 or 3 multimeters.  Would be enough, for nearly everything.
Also take into account.  We probably only know some of the details.  If we really were in Frans shoes, with all the facts, past experiences and other information (full facts).  We may easily see, the quite possibly (at least partly sensible), reasoning, behind these actions.

In other words.  Common sense, sensible and 100% logical planning, are NOT the way, many real life humans, behave in life.  If it was, the TEA thread here, would probably be empty.

[EEVblog]

The thing is, Fran has managed to create a finely tuned/balanced, business (or well paid fun hobby), with their YouTube channel setup.

The finely tuned part is the problem here. It's so finely tuned financially that any small drop in Patreon income leads to panic and the videos we have seen recently. This is in addition to the usual renters problem of getting booted out. That's all fine of course if it's hidden from the audience, but it's not, the audience funds the entire operation practically 100% and she shares all the details of the problem publicly.
I think she has said the small extra boost recently will last until the end of the year, maybe early next year when she expects a natural dropoff to bring it under the red line again.

[james_s]

Couldn't agree more. You do what you have to do.  From what I see and know of Fran's situation, she basically has 2 options. 1/ move to another area to reduce overhead, or 2/ substantially increase income. And with option 2, if she stays put, she will need to keep increasing income to stay pace with rapidly increasing costs, because the US economy is going into recession, things are going to be bad for a long time.  The stress of that must be dreadful. I suffer with stress and anxiety and can't imagine being where she is without imploding.  It's obviously affecting her ability to produce appealing content, she has made that comment herself, so that will be an ever increasing downward spiral.

We all wish we had a 10,000 sq ft private, personal workshop for as cheap as chips with no external pressure to worry about, but that is a
rare thing indeed and not something to hope happens with no strategy for that!

I think her income is going to drop substantially too, not increase. The economy is entering into a recession, the severity of which is not yet known but signs point to it being a nasty one. I don't know what has happened to viewers so far but I haven't watched one of her videos in quite some time, there got to be too many of these videos complaining about the situation she has created and the results of doing the same thing over and over again instead of interesting technical content. I'm not going to chip in to enable someone to keep making the same mistakes.

[james_s]

Also, owning a house in a small(er) town or suburb MUST be way safer than a city like Philly. But sadly Fran doesn't agree.

It is, it's an objectively true fact. She lives in Philly which is notorious as one of the most dangerous cities in all of North America, sure there are some parts that are not so bad but the idea of choosing to live there because it's safe is just absolutely laughable and indicates a lack of rational thought.

[MK14]

The finely tuned part is the problem here. It's so finely tuned financially that any small drop in Patreon income leads to panic and the videos we have seen recently. This is in addition to the usual renters problem of getting booted out. That's all fine of course if it's hidden from the audience, but it's not, the audience funds the entire operation practically 100% and she shares all the details of the problem publicly.
I think she has said the small extra boost recently will last until the end of the year, maybe early next year when she expects a natural dropoff to bring it under the red line again.

You're NOT wrong, it does seem to be exactly like that.  But even, relatively massive companies, have made similar mistakes, in the past, eventually leading to that company (however big), disappearing.

For example DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Equipment_Corporation  ) computers, of PDP11 fame (actually I think that was a computer you used, a very long time ago, to start up a business, using it to produce dating matches or something, maybe?) and other computer systems.  But, in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, the computer market was rapidly dramatically changing.  Computers, no longer needed to be massive cabinets, in specialized air-conditioned rooms (sometimes). Because the CPU could be in a single chip Microprocessor.
But DEC couldn't (or rather the people/person at the top of the company), see or properly understand, these upcoming changes (although they did make the DEC Alpha Microprocessors).

So, the market place was rapidly shifting over to microprocessors, and relatively small, low cost (relatively speaking), computers, such as the upcoming (IBM) PCs and their clones.
But DEC, insisted, on trying to sell these considerably more expensive computers (maybe ten or twenty times the price of a PC), and would send at least two sales people, to try and sell each of these 'small' computer systems.
They just didn't get it, or adapt in time.
So nowadays, they don't exist anymore.

(Fran, if you ever read this, PLEASE don't take it personally.  I'm just describing things.  People are different, otherwise things could get very boring, if we were all the same).
Some people, don't seem so good, at sorting things out for the longer term.  They only/mainly see things, on a day by day basis.  Sometimes continually fighting fires, each day.

So, yes, if they had consolidated things, ages ago, and kept better (much more efficient), means of achieving their goals.  Such as using premises (rented or bought), in much more affordable locations.  They would be in a much stronger position, financially.  To either ride out the current financial situation, or cope with less income.

But I can still perceive, some of the reasons, as to why they are in the current situation.  Originally, well before the gentrification of where they were renting/living/working, the rentals and costs, were quite possibly perfectly reasonable/efficient and sensible.

I wouldn't blame Fran, for the changes (gentrification), of where they were/are located, or the current financial climate.

I suspect some of the personality traits, that make people enjoy and really, like Electronics and its stuff.  E.g. Vintage electronic displays/lamps and gadgets.  Are perhaps, more likely, to want things to be a certain way, even if the real life practicalities and business situation, don't really allow it.

I feel relatively sorry for them.  Because they seem to really, really enjoy what they do, they appear to be having a great deal of fun.  But the financial realities of the situation, are beginning (or already have), to catch up with them.

[james_s]

Nope, the kids love their school and their neighours and their house, as does Mrs EEVblog.
We are currently planing an extension upwards and a pool, at great expense to managment.
Of course we'd move if we were absolutely forced to, but they would never willingly choose that.

We have actually discussed buying a house nearby in the suburb as an investment, which could also be used as lab, and then in the future as a place for the kids to live once they have a family. I made the hypothetical argument that if that house was way bigger and better than our current house, they voted that they still wouldn't move.

He's right though that it's still a choice. Maybe not a very good choice given the current factors in your situation but if you were in Fran's position, relying on patrons and youtube income and trying to rent, hemorrhaging money to pay for your home and lab as the train is speeding toward the end of the track I suspect you might reconsider and uprooting everyone might not look so bad. People relocate their families all the time, often because they get another job somewhere else. 

[EEVblog]

Nope, the kids love their school and their neighours and their house, as does Mrs EEVblog.
We are currently planing an extension upwards and a pool, at great expense to managment.
Of course we'd move if we were absolutely forced to, but they would never willingly choose that.

We have actually discussed buying a house nearby in the suburb as an investment, which could also be used as lab, and then in the future as a place for the kids to live once they have a family. I made the hypothetical argument that if that house was way bigger and better than our current house, they voted that they still wouldn't move.

He's right though that it's still a choice. Maybe not a very good choice given the current factors in your situation

Of course, I did not mean to say I don't have a choice. It's just that in our sitation there is literally no reason to move and almost every reason to stay.
I keep having to explain this to people though who think I should move and build a large lab in the backyard to save cost. Like why am I paying $5k+ strata a year (plus strata on two storage units) to work in a windowless box in a corporate business tower.

but if you were in Fran's position, relying on patrons and youtube income and trying to rent, hemorrhaging money to pay for your home and lab as the train is speeding toward the end of the track I suspect you might reconsider and uprooting everyone might not look so bad. People relocate their families all the time, often because they get another job somewhere else.

Of course I would, and I said that I would. I just don't have to, not even remotely close to it being a consideration.

[EEVblog]

I think her income is going to drop substantially too, not increase. The economy is entering into a recession, the severity of which is not yet known but signs point to it being a nasty one.

I can confirm as I see Patron dropping off and they leave a message explaining why, and there have been more and more "economic siutation" messages lately.
All other creators would be seeing the same.

I don't know what has happened to viewers so far but I haven't watched one of her videos in quite some time, there got to be too many of these videos complaining about the situation she has created and the results of doing the same thing over and over again instead of interesting technical content. I'm not going to chip in to enable someone to keep making the same mistakes.

I personally mostly like watching her rant and commentary videos (I can just put them on the background while doing other stuff) and just seeing the oddball vintage stuff like displays etc.
I suggested that she have a weekly segment tearing down and showing off someone oddball in her collection.
But everyone wants something different and that's one of the big problems.

Personally I think project videos are a big time sink for not a big up-side view potential. As a creator in the same space as Fran, if I was trying to save my channel I wouldn't be spending time on build projects. I'd focus on regular segments that can be produced relatively easily.

[EEVblog]

So, yes, if they had consolidated things, ages ago, and kept better (much more efficient), means of achieving their goals.  Such as using premises (rented or bought), in much more affordable locations.  They would be in a much stronger position, financially.  To either ride out the current financial situation, or cope with less income.
But I can still perceive, some of the reasons, as to why they are in the current situation.  Originally, well before the gentrification of where they were renting/living/working, the rentals and costs, were quite possibly perfectly reasonable/efficient and sensible.
I wouldn't blame Fran, for the changes (gentrification), of where they were/are located, or the current financial climate.

Yes, I believe Fran when she says gentrification is ruining the spaces she needs in Philly. Soon there will be little option left. She's already been forced into renting 4 separate spaces at once as a result of gentrification in order to get the space she needs just to maintain what she is doing. Crazy.

I've got 4 spaces too - home, the lab, and two storage units. I already gave up renting a bigger space and moved back into my smaller lab to save cost. With hindsight I should have bought the biggest space possible a decade ago. I went through some ballpark calcs on this that it was a $400k mistake for not thinking long term:

[MK14]

Yes, I believe Fran when she says gentrification is ruining the spaces she needs in Philly. Soon there will be little option left. She's already been forced into renting 4 separate spaces at once as a result of gentrification in order to get the space she needs just to maintain what she is doing. Crazy.

I've got 4 spaces too - home, the lab, and two storage units. I already gave up renting a bigger space and moved back into my smaller lab to save cost. With hindsight I should have bought the biggest space possible a decade ago. I went through some ballpark calcs on this that it was a $400k mistake for not thinking long term:

As you say, the key word is of course, HINDSIGHT.  Thanks for the video link, I enjoyed watching it!   

Although you are presenting it as $400,000 you could have saved.  If you roll the clock, forwards or backwards, you can't really predict the outcomes, that accurately.

E.g. You find an apparent bargain commercial property, today.  Priced at $500,000.
But, without the hindsight of what is going to happen in the next 5 years or so.  You can't really know/decide, if the best option is to buy it or not.  You can just make the best/educated guess, that you can.

As you say, in the video, but I'm also adding my own comments.  In five years time, it could be worth $750,000, or its value might have dropped to $250,000, and you have great difficulty selling it.

I think you got extra added value, from the commercial places you rented.  Because they helped give you extra experience, as to what you really needed, and how to better access, the viability/usefulness of a particular property.
E.g. You found out, how annoying, it being windowless was.  Also how limiting, a space which didn't have enough room for your lab, and any worker(s), at the time.

I.e. If you had immediately bought a place at the very beginning and stuck with it.  As money efficient as that would have been.  You wouldn't have tried all the various different premises.  Which allowed you to realize what you really wanted and needed.
In other words, you were climbing a learning curve, perhaps without fully realizing it.

I think with businesses, it is necessary to accept that someone has to make various decisions.  Not all of those decisions, will be 100% right.  Just hopefully, those decisions are right enough of the time, to make the business successful.

Also, by worrying about this theoretical $400,000 'loss'.  It might help you to make much bigger profits, in the future.  Because you have gained more experience (climbed the learning curve), on what decisions are especially critical (financially speaking), and will know when to pause, get professional advise, and research something carefully.  Before committing to buying or renting it, and so on.

[EEVblog]

Also, by worrying about this theoretical $400,000 'loss'.  It might help you to make much bigger profits, in the future.  Because you have gained more experience (climbed the learning curve), on what decisions are especially critical (financially speaking), and will know when to pause, get professional advise, and research something carefully.  Before committing to buying or renting it, and so on.

11 years ago when I bought this place, all I knew was that:
a) I needed to move out of the garage
b) The interest on the place was about the same as rent on the place

I had no idea if the Youtube thing would go anywhere, hardly anyone in the country was a full time Youtuber back then, I was one of the first. But it seemed like a no-brainer to buy instead of rent. I figured I could also sell the office and go back to a real job with my tail between my legs.

[Kasper]

A few years ago I was seeing lots of videos on youtube comparing buying a home vs renting and investing in stocks.  Most calculations were wild guesses and barely mentioned risk.  Last year there were many similar videos but focussed on fixed vs variable interest rate for mortgages.  Again they barely mentioned risk.

If you rent a home or you go with variable rate mortgage, you might have some extra money up front to diversify and invest in stocks, etc, but homes are essential and the risk of missing out on some potential extra money from stocks pales in comparison to what many renters and variable rate mortgage holders are going through now.

I hope after this, more people will discuss the worst case scenario, not because I enjoy the negativity but because it's often worth at least some consideration in big decisions.

[MK14]

11 years ago when I bought this place, all I knew was that:
a) I needed to move out of the garage
b) The interest on the place was about the same as rent on the place

I had no idea if the Youtube thing would go anywhere, hardly anyone in the country was a full time Youtuber back then, I was one of the first. But it seemed like a no-brainer to buy instead of rent. I figured I could also sell the office and go back to a real job with my tail between my legs.

It's quite difficult, making a decision, to go from a full-time job, to a business venture.
I don't know, to what extent it would have applied to you.  But by moving from working at home, in the garage, to proper, office premises.  You would be more likely to be able to concentrate on the job, and get things done.  Without any of the possible distractions or temptations to fix/help around the house.

Yes, buying when the interest charges, are similar to the rental charges, make sense.

You seemed to have gotten your foot in the door, with youtube at around the right time.  Because (as you have said, many times, I think).  Youtube, is much harder, and pays much less, these days.  Their so called 'algorithm', which can make or break youtube channels, must also be worrying.

You have probably easily reached 'critical mass', by now.  So, you could have options, of alternative funding and/or video outlets (as you've often mentioned, and already done, such as Odysee).  If Youtube's, possible future changes/directions, get really silly.

In effect Fran has done that, through Patreon and the all too regular, suddenly 'have to move', Youtube video, situations.  But, I suspect, it has limits, and Fran may be stretching those limits, too much, sooner or later.

My suspicion, is if Fran could somehow, make a dramatic move. Physically, through one of the suggested, or similar ways.  E.g. Buy a suitable property (or rent if Fran must), in a much more economically efficient (cheaper), area.  They would find, that they fairly soon, get use to it.

Sometimes with things like this.  Ones mind, creates all sorts of visions, of bad/horrible things that will/may happen, if they go in a particular direction (such as buy a suitable place).  But the reality, is much, much nicer.  So much so, that 12 months, after such a change, they are kicking themselves, for not making the move twenty years ago.

[Kasper]

Nope, the kids love their school and their neighours and their house, as does Mrs EEVblog.

That is worth a lot. I'd guess it doubles the value of your home.

[EEVblog]

It's quite difficult, making a decision, to go from a full-time job, to a business venture.
I don't know, to what extent it would have applied to you.  But by moving from working at home, in the garage, to proper, office premises.  You would be more likely to be able to concentrate on the job, and get things done.  Without any of the possible distractions or temptations to fix/help around the house.

Even if we had the space to build a lab in the backyard she has said she wouldn't let me. It would be too easy for me to just step outside to the lab instead of spending time with her and the kids.
With the lab in the nearby business park I have to at least travel there which takes some effort, it's separates work and home life.

[EEVblog]

My suspicion, is if Fran could somehow, make a dramatic move. Physically, through one of the suggested, or similar ways.  E.g. Buy a suitable property (or rent if Fran must), in a much more economically efficient (cheaper), area.  They would find, that they fairly soon, get use to it.

I can assure oyu that Fran is not going to move. She'll progressively shut down the Youtube business before that happens.
She has already said the factory would be the first to go if finances get squeezed any more.

[nctnico]

I may be substantially going against the flow of opinions, in this thread.
But as I see it, I somewhat understand, Frans thinking, ways and reasoning.

The thing is, Fran has managed to create a finely tuned/balanced, business (or well paid fun hobby), with their YouTube channel setup.  It allows them to spend the huge number of dedicated hours, producing the stuff (hardware, Videos and things).
In relative peace and quiet, with few or no, distractions.  Where they can actually live in their workspace (which many people, would probably HATE to do, in practice).

Because these are properly rented, real purpose built or modified, factory/warehouse/industrial areas.  It means they can setup fairly large equipment/machines (as necessary/required), with proper access, ventilation, safety, floor types, powerful electrical connections, etc.

If the situation changes (for business reasons from time to time).  E.g. A (hypothetical) Guitar accessory, sales dramatically petering out.  They can close down that particular (1 of 4), rented out buildings/areas.  Then (when the contract runs out), just move out of that area, and close down that particular functionality/aspect (of their business or very serious money making hobby).

I don't disagree with this line of thought. From a business perspective it can be worthwhile to rent a building for as long as there is a positive ROI and renting doesn't need sinking a large chunk of cash that is sitting still in bricks. However, for a personal living space (IOW a home) ownership sounds better to me because it is also part of the retirement fund.

[nctnico]

It's quite difficult, making a decision, to go from a full-time job, to a business venture.
I don't know, to what extent it would have applied to you.  But by moving from working at home, in the garage, to proper, office premises.  You would be more likely to be able to concentrate on the job, and get things done.  Without any of the possible distractions or temptations to fix/help around the house.

Even if we had the space to build a lab in the backyard she has said she wouldn't let me. It would be too easy for me to just step outside to the lab instead of spending time with her and the kids.
With the lab in the nearby business park I have to at least travel there which takes some effort, it's separates work and home life.

That is understandable. The flipside is that you are away from home during the day like having a normal job. I have been a work-at-home dad for over 10 years which gave my kids access to me whenever they needed me or wanted to show something. Part of me wishes I had started working for myself sooner. Like when my kids where the same age as yours.

[Stray Electron]

Nope, the kids love their school and their neighours and their house, as does Mrs EEVblog.

That is worth a lot. I'd guess it doubles the value of your home.

   Being in a neighborhood like that not only keeps the family happy, but in the long run a home in a neighborhood like that will be worth far more in a cheap not-so-desirable neighborhood.  So ultimately the EEVblogs will probably be better off financially than they would be if they sold their current place and moved.

   

[tom66]

True but personally I would use an investment fund (which I actually did) in order to spread the risks better and make sure to get some interest.

Agreed, and in the long run equity funds have actually outperformed property.

Not to mention owning a home is itself a liability, you have to maintain it.  Not a big deal if you live in it, but more hassle if you don't (and don't even think about being a landlord.)

Plus there's a global housing shortage, it feels immoral to buy properties if they aren't used to live in. 

[MK14]

My suspicion, is if Fran could somehow, make a dramatic move. Physically, through one of the suggested, or similar ways.  E.g. Buy a suitable property (or rent if Fran must), in a much more economically efficient (cheaper), area.  They would find, that they fairly soon, get use to it.

I can assure oyu that Fran is not going to move. She'll progressively shut down the Youtube business before that happens.
She has already said the factory would be the first to go if finances get squeezed any more.

I find it sad to hear that.  But on the other hand, some things, sometimes comes to an end, sooner or later.  Such is life.

At least they are being sensible, about how things are going to shut/close down, when and if, the time comes.  My understanding, is that it is not unknown, for some people, to be so set in their ways, they literally won't do anything about their situation, until the court appointed dept-collectors/bailiffs (names can vary, depending on country), come knocking on the door.

When/if such a moment occurs.  They then would need to move, somewhere.  That could be a time, to move in the right direction, by buying (or renting, as a possibly less good choice), somewhere much more, longer term, affordable and practical.

They then could consider, rebuilding their Youtube (and/or other business activities), back up again.  From a solid, owned premises.  Perhaps a somewhat large, Combined Home/Studio/Workshop type of house or building complex.  Ideally (as already mentioned), in a nice, safe (in most peoples eyes), location, outside of Frans existing comfort-zone, of nice/safe places to live.

[james_s]

True but personally I would use an investment fund (which I actually did) in order to spread the risks better and make sure to get some interest.

A house is a much better investment around here than a fund, I don't know if the same is true over there though. Not only does a house appreciate in value, but you can rent it out for extra income. If I'd been smart enough to buy a second house 15 years ago I'd be renting it out today for enough to pay the mortgage and then some. I'd be making money off it as it increases in value.

[james_s]

I can assure oyu that Fran is not going to move. She'll progressively shut down the Youtube business before that happens.
She has already said the factory would be the first to go if finances get squeezed any more.

We already know almost exactly what's going to happen. She has boxed herself in with a set of extremely rigid constraints that are about to butt heads with reality. Income is going to drop, the factory space will go, then the dominoes will keep falling, the youtube content will go away or change and the income will drop further.