Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?

[coppice]

I think you're out of touch with what the university syllabus is for engineering. Control theory and maths was around half of my electronics engineering degree. Control is heavily taught within the department of engineering at most universities.

I think control theory is only taught seriously in engineering faculties. You'd think economics people would learn something about it, but they don't appear to.

[Howardlong]

I think you're out of touch with what the university syllabus is for engineering. Control theory and maths was around half of my electronics engineering degree. Control is heavily taught within the department of engineering at most universities.

I think control theory is only taught seriously in engineering faculties. You'd think economics people would learn something about it, but they don't appear to.

I found control theory to be, well, far too theoretical. All well and good knowing your Laplace transform from your Dirac delta function, but if you don't know how to apply it it is worthless. I passed the exams fine, but still had little clue why or how it applied to real world electronic engineering, so I considered it to be of questionable value to me back then, and, as predominantly a digital guy 30+ years ago I didn't really give two hoots about it anyway.

Now if they'd given us a small practical project to complete based on control theory it would have helped an awful lot, but regretfully there was so little practical component to my degree course it was embarrassing.

Things have changed a lot since those days, particularly with the advent of generally available computer aided modelling.

[owiecc]

Now if they'd given us a small practical project to complete based on control theory it would have helped an awful lot, but regretfully there was so little practical component to my degree course it was embarrassing.

This comes down to how the study curriculum is designed. In our university students do one project per semester. They start with an easy project in big groups so they have experience in group work, group dynamics, report writing, finding source materials (first semester) and finish up with very specialised, full semester project in smaller groups (MSc semester). Each project is connected with a semester theme and, therefore, connected with the right courses. Fourth semester is a control one where, e.g. they will make DC motor control for drones, electronic load, balancing tables and so on.

[dannyf]

but they don't appear to.

IO is very close.

So are many optimization problems, like those used by airlines - Sabre for example.

The issue with economics is that it deals with people: the same stimuli applied to the same group of people under the same conditions often yield different behaviors / outcome.

[VK3DRB]

I think you're out of touch with what the university syllabus is for engineering. Control theory and maths was around half of my electronics engineering degree. Control is heavily taught within the department of engineering at most universities.

I think control theory is only taught seriously in engineering faculties. You'd think economics people would learn something about it, but they don't appear to.

Economists do learn control theory, but many seem to ignore it.

Control theory is what separates engineers from the rest. The rest includes governments, like the Victorian government here which is out of control.http://www.theage.com.au/comment/billions-of-dollars-of-victorian-taxpayers-money-is-being-wasted-on-bad-government-contracts-20150121-12ubyi.html

Most state governments politicians are lawyers, knucklehead do-gooders, greenies and various spongers who are "very good" with other peoples' money. They are also very good at lying and deceiving to the public to win elections.

The state government here cheated people into paying speeding fines. One example is they had a speed camera set to a LOWER setting than the speed limit sign near Tullamarine airport where they reaped millions in fines. It was the second biggest speed camera profit earner for the state government, so they kept the scam running for several months after they were caught out by an engineer who copped a fine (he did some tests). They did not fix it until when the engineer went public when all hell broke loose.

If these politicians were honest and capable and actually understood control theory and were to the level of intelligence and integrity of the average electronics engineer, things would have been very different. I suspect no electronic engineers are politicians because they are simply too honest and down to earth. Engineers don't tell lies to get get a job. Engineers examine problems methodically and scientifically to solve problems. They use control theory to ensure stability in the systems they create. They project manage projects effectively and realistically so they are on time and on budget. Unlike dodgy politicians, they earn their income.

I refused to vote at the last election, and I was reported for not doing so because voting is compulsory here. There was no-one I thought was good enough to vote for. Don't vote, you get fined. Don't pay the fine, you get imprisoned.

If there were more engineers running governments the world over, the world would be a better place. Better management, better systems and less illegal and legal corruption too. And control theory would be used to ensure stability and control, employing feedback from the end-user, the public.

[IanB]

I refused to vote at the last election, and I was reported for not doing so because voting is compulsory here. There was no-one I thought was good enough to vote for. Don't vote, you get fined. Don't pay the fine, you get imprisoned.

Are you not allowed to vote "none of the above" in order to satisfy the compulsory voting requirement? I thought I had read somewhere that this was an option provided to make compulsory voting laws palatable.

[free_electron]

Appropriateness is key. But , it is NOT an ee who designs a control system structure or picks a modulation scheme.
An ee designs the circuitry that implements it. Control systems are modeled by physicists and mathematicians. That is NOT something you leave to a an engineer with sub par math skills !

you gave the example of that windmill vibration. i cannot believe such a problem would be tackled by an EE. you need people that have a notion of mechanics and aerodynamics and other stuff that impact a windmill. there may be EE's out there that have those skills because they did additional work post graduation. but a newly minted EE is not capable of doing that.

As an example, I have designed and implemented modulation schemes for satellites, from structuring the data schema to writing the code and building both exciter and receiver hardware. For that you need to have a working knowledge of orbital mechanics, projected spin rates, doppler effects, power budgeting, RF link budgeting, reasonable sensor parameter ranges (eg thermal effects), embedded and non-embedded software development, DSP, algorithm development, coding schemes, modulation schemes, error correction methodologies, hardware selection and design and know one end of a soldering iron from the other. For the demodulator, you even need control systems knowledge.

But I'm not a physicist. I gained almost every single one of those skills after graduating as an EE without any formal training, but I do know how to read books and observe stuff for myself. 

please do tell me, how much 'orbital mechanics' did you learn in your EE course ?

Just like , for an EE , it is possible to do stuff waaay out of his field, it is possible for a non EE to do stuff waaay out of his field.

in short : The paper neither proves nor precludes anything ,apart from having spent 4 years on meeting the requirements to get the paper.
And that's all i have to say about it.

Besides, engineering is a life-long course. there is always one more thing you don't know and tomorrow someone will invent a new thing you haven't heard of either. Maybe that invention will be done by an EE , maybe it will be done by the guy around the corner.

[AlfBaz]

Are you not allowed to vote "none of the above" in order to satisfy the compulsory voting requirement? I thought I had read somewhere that this was an option provided to make compulsory voting laws palatable.

You don't have to tick or write anything, simply fold the pieces of paper up and stick them in ballot boxes on the way out. Known as an informal or "donkey" vote

[nctnico]

hold it. 'Department of engineering' . engineering of what ? There are lots of different fields and subfield in engineering. One of em might well be control systems.

My claim is designing control systems is outside the scope of EE  ElectricalEngineers.

I think you're out of touch with what the university syllabus is for engineering. Control theory and maths was around half of my electronics engineering degree. Control is heavily taught within the department of engineering at most universities.

I agree. Control systems are an essential part of EE. Think about switching power supplies, servo loops, heating controls, opamp feedback, etc.

[vk6zgo]

Are you not allowed to vote "none of the above" in order to satisfy the compulsory voting requirement? I thought I had read somewhere that this was an option provided to make compulsory voting laws palatable.

You don't have to tick or write anything, simply fold the pieces of paper up and stick them in ballot boxes on the way out. Known as an informal or "donkey" vote

Of course,that doesn't satisfy the grandstanders who "refuse" to vote,& cop a $20 fine!

[AlfBaz]

Of course,that doesn't satisfy the grandstanders who "refuse" to vote,& cop a $20 fine!

I thought that when posting but kept it factual for Ian's seemingly genuine question.

If you cop the fine and don't pay it the state governments debt mob (forget their name) will cancel your cars rego and or licence (no prison) until you pay it plus the inevitable surcharges, which end up amounting to more than the original fine.

So to make "grandstanding" worthwhile, you would need to get a group of you to do it and make a hell of a noise in the media for it to take effect otherwise it's a massive inconvenience for an empty statement

[IconicPCB]

Go vote you lazy bastards... for the donkey.

[luky315]

I can only say that the best developer i know has no degree and one of the worst is a Dr.-Ing. (comparable to a  PhD)

[miguelvp]

I can only say that the best developer i know has no degree and one of the worst is a Dr.-Ing. (comparable to a  PhD)

My question to you will be, does the best developer you know attended college at any time? as long as he learned how to learn without skipping the boring parts and collaborate with others then he got all the college he needed.

[VK3DRB]

Are you not allowed to vote "none of the above" in order to satisfy the compulsory voting requirement? I thought I had read somewhere that this was an option provided to make compulsory voting laws palatable.

You don't have to tick or write anything, simply fold the pieces of paper up and stick them in ballot boxes on the way out. Known as an informal or "donkey" vote

The escape clause is to get your name crossed off and walk out in protest. At least we vote. In backward communist countries, try to vote and you get hauled away and made to disappear. But in a free democratic country, you should not be forced to vote. Freedom means freedom. Not being told what to do if you are not hurting anyone else.

I am happy to vote if there is someone worth voting for. You should be force to vote for one financial knucklehead or crook over another, as has been the case with Victorian state government elections for many years. Again I say we need more people with the calibre of engineers at the helm.

[IconicPCB]

"...  In backward communist countries, try to vote and you get hauled away and made to disappear..."


As in any other country You ought to behave according to the laws. Anecdotally what follows is a sample of the law.

My father used to tell the story of voting in a newly established comunist country post ww2.

Voting was compulsory.

You get two markers.. a rubber ball and a steel ball approx 1 cm in diameter.
Voting was secret. You would vote by placing one of the above into a container. The catch was.. the bottom of the container had a sounding board... no exit polls.

GET YA FACTS RIGHT!

[dannyf]

GET YA FACTS RIGHT!

Please don't let facts get in the way of us rednecks fabricating a story that appeals to our tiny brains but bears no resemblance to reality,

[tggzzz]

In backward communist countries, try to vote and you get hauled away and made to disappear.

Wasn't it Stalin who observed that all he needed to do was to control the people that counted the votes?

[Rigby]

GET YA FACTS RIGHT!

Please don't let facts get in the way of us rednecks fabricating a story that appeals to our tiny brains but bears no resemblance to reality,

haha, i like that.  too true.

[vk6zgo]

Are you not allowed to vote "none of the above" in order to satisfy the compulsory voting requirement? I thought I had read somewhere that this was an option provided to make compulsory voting laws palatable.

You don't have to tick or write anything, simply fold the pieces of paper up and stick them in ballot boxes on the way out. Known as an informal or "donkey" vote

The escape clause is to get your name crossed off and walk out in protest. At least we vote. In backward communist countries, try to vote and you get hauled away and made to disappear. But in a free democratic country, you should not be forced to vote. Freedom means freedom. Not being told what to do if you are not hurting anyone else.

I am happy to vote if there is someone worth voting for. You should be force to vote for one financial knucklehead or crook over another, as has been the case with Victorian state government elections for many years. Again I say we need more people with the calibre of engineers at the helm.

You only get to vote for your local member (& a Senator in Federal Elections),so your protest may prevent the election of an excellent individual,just because you don't like their Knucklehead party leaders.

I like Engineers,but many times,its hard to get a straight answer from them,as they are "away with the fairies",thinking about their next project.

[VK3DRB]

GET YA FACTS RIGHT!

Please don't let facts get in the way of us rednecks fabricating a story that appeals to our tiny brains but bears no resemblance to reality,

haha, i like that.  too true.

What are you smoking?

Try and start up a democratic party in a the so-called "People's" Republic of China. You'd become an organ donor before the ink had even dried on your Vote For Democracy posters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_dissidents

Try promoting the opportunity to vote in Cuba. No Cuban cigars for you, old boy... cockroaches will be on your menu for the rest of your short life. http://www.truth-out.org/speakout/item/28266-from-cuba-to-north-korea-torture-disappears-from-the-media#

OK, try doing it in Vietnam. You'll get free education... re-education that is. You'd be better off with a lobotomy.

Do your homework so you too get to learn a bit about reality.

[IconicPCB]

Some years back, germany's chancellor Schroeder, if memory serves, defined democracy as

" ... dictatorship of law ... "

Do not think for a moment Stalin's Russia was a lawless land.

Dont think for a moment pre civil war USA was a lawless land.

Dont think industrial revolution UK was a lawless land...

Come to understand any regime is good and bad.. depends how it treats YOU as an individual.

[dannyf]

Some years back, germany's chancellor Schroeder, if memory serves, defined democracy as

" ... dictatorship of law ... "

I don't know if that definition is accurate. Democracy to me means popular citizen involvement in government. It does not by itself ensure a state governed by law or governed by person. In fact, democracy can turn into tyranny (of majority) - Nazi Germany would be one such example.

[tggzzz]

Some years back, germany's chancellor Schroeder, if memory serves, defined democracy as

" ... dictatorship of law ... "

I don't know if that definition is accurate. Democracy to me means popular citizen involvement in government. It does not by itself ensure a state governed by law or governed by person. In fact, democracy can turn into tyranny (of majority) - Nazi Germany would be one such example.

It is also worth understanding that democracy is not (and never has been) the answer; it is a way of finding answers. There are other ways, with differing advantages and disadvantages.

[HighVoltage]

At least in old ancient Rom, the public could vote people "in to office" and "out of office"