Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?

[zapta]

in software, everyone is (sigh) moving to agile style instead of waterfall style.

These are the two extremes, most people use something in between.

[free_electron]

Maybe you misunderstand what managing is. Understandable as too many managers are not really managers.

Do you get the case in proper engineering like in software development when the person carrying the title of "project manager" is often really the project lead?

I do t know anything about software. We are talking EE here, those do hardware. Where i have worked in my life the project manager is different from the project lead. The manager makes sure that time criteria are met, goes and fights for resources, fab slots and all the other stuff so that the actual designers can design and are not encumbered in paperwork.

[Mechanical Menace]

I do t know anything about software. We are talking EE here, those do hardware.

That's why I asked lol.

Where i have worked in my life the project manager is different from the project lead.

Which makes sense and in an ideal world is how things should be. But I know in the small companies I've seen, and some medium ones, people further up the hierarchy have to wear many hats. Which makes sense as a big "medium enterprise" is 250 people and $50 million turnover max. And I can imagine a quarter of a century in a silicon lab means you haven't had much experience working in SMEs?

Now I can see why employers might be more prepared to put the extra stress on software than hardware people, so maybe even small companies will see the value in giving them a dedicated manager. But if they're not and that's the background IconicPCB is coming from I thought maybe that's why they'd be dubious about a project manager who wasn't an engineer.

[free_electron]

I dont want to work for small companies, unless i am the boss.
There is never enough resources to get anything done. You can never get the stuff you want due to budget retrictions and the supiers don't wanna talk to you as you are only little fry. You never get to play with the really cool stuff.
I've stayed awayfrom those, unless they are different. But most of em fall in the category of 'started because the boss want to drive a beemer and the footfolk do the gruntwork.

Not interested.

[Galenbo]

...
One company showed me a bunch of their schematics and asked me if i could tell what the circuitry did. i looked at it for a few minutes and pointed out 7 or 8 mistakes in their design.
They asked me again if i could tell what the circuit did. i said ,yes , something that ain't going to be working quite right. they laughed and admitted those schematics were from a prototype before they debugged it and had found the issues i pointed out as well. And then i explained them in detail what that circuit did , how they could improve it and make it cheaper...

If you don't have a clue what the problem is, and you don't have the money to hire a freelancer or expert, write a job opening :-)

[JuKu]

> Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?

I would, and have. The hiring decision is made by do I believe the candidate can perform? A degree is one way to show it, but there are others. However, having a degree is in itself valuable to the company, so someone with a degree gets paid more for the same job because of that. Why?

Message to customer: "Your project is very important to us, and we put our brightest people on it, Ph.D. Mary A and M.S. John B." vs. "Your project is very important to us, and we put our brightest people on it, Mary A, a student in UoBS and John B. who is very smart."

[calexanian]

I am sorry. I cant hear you over the rumble of my successful electronics business with my non degreed ears! 

OR IN OTHER WORDS

Everybody must find their own way. Some things require a degree for liability purposes. Many do not. Personally I looked at a Uni as a waste of 4 years, and I just dove into work. It got the the down payment for a house! I however had opportunities many people did not have, and was already in a position where I know what skills I was going to need and found them on my own. If i were in a Uni program I know I would have just floundered and failed because I would have just been doing my own design work anyways and not paying attention to classes. I used to give talks to college students actually about electronics manufacturing while being student aged myself because I grew up in that sort of business. Again. I had advantages. For those who are already goal oriented and enjoy electronics as a hobby I would say getting a degree is not a necessity. Your work output will speak for itself and you will most likely not be happy in a work place that puts certification and paper qualifications ahead of genuine enthusiasm and inventive problem solving. Also experience and knowledge of the market and how to get things done. And for those of you complaining about how do you get experience without being employed. There is this magic thing called the internet that will pretty much show you everything you need to know about how things get done. The rest is just personal experience, and if you are lazy or not interested in how things really work in the world and business, you have already failed before you even began.

I know I got off point there, but I think it goes along with this thread.

[tggzzz]

It strikes me this whole topic is about as useful as, in a different sphere, asking "would you employ someone without a medical degree?"

It is well known that newly-graduated doctors rely very heavily on nurses particularly in their early days, see very humourous first-hand examples at https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XxcjAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT201&lpg=PT201&dq=%22phil+hammond%22+nurse+needle+in+vein&source=bl&ots=L7wauIs7Pu&sig=UwGmQPdnqm9BPlX107WbVOT-osw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GhXZVMPYOqWi7AbSvoH4CA&redir_esc=y Yes, the nurses (illegally) inserted needles because the newly graduated doctor couldn't. The doctor made the tea and got the credit for inserting the needles

But does that mean that the doctor's qualification is a waste of time that should be ignored? Of course not, unless you are a nurse with an enormous chip on your shoulder.

Personally, if I have a kidney problem, I'm going to want it diagnosed and treated by a doctor, not a nurse.
If I need to have a barb removed from my finger, or have my leg plastered, I'd prefer a nurse to do it.

Any dissenting views?

Oh yes, nurses can probably run medical businesses as well as doctors, if not better. Shrug. Big deal. (Particularly since most doctors  actively don't want to run businesses: they want to cure patients.) Doesn't change who I want to diagnose/treat my child's problems.

[calexanian]

The difference here is every state has a governing board of directors who says who can be a practicing physician and who cant. Just because you have a doctor before your last name does not mean you can legally treat somebody. There are analogs in engineering in certain fields.  I have however met many many engineers who are degreed and do not have the skills to troubleshoot certain pieces of equipment, and others who have no degree and I could think of nobody better to repair a certain system. Many of the best engine builders in the country are not ASE certified, but i could think of none better to build me an engine.

Also I have never met an electrical contractor qualified to design and install a PV solar system. But thats a different story.

A specific example I have encountered. Twice. Local radio stations hired  engineers to maintain transmitter sites. Both sites could not be made to conform to FCC requirements. Both sites re designed and rebuilt by old experienced hams. Both with no degrees but a whole lifetime of RF electronics knowledge. Both sites still running decades later. Both men still on call for work at the stations.

Not every situation is the same.

I am actually currently looking to hire another engineer. If they can write in assembly, use Eagle or can learn it in a few days (I did), troubleshoot a pcb, and have that all important factor that school cannot teach of, i can feel something is wrong here that only comes from thousands oh hours of playing with electronics, i would give them a good paying job right now. Degree or not. Just show me your projects you have worked on. Anybody in the Fresno area contact me. Your job will be repairing boards. Designing fixtures. Cad drawing, SMT prototype assembly, debugging, and helping with new product development. Degree not required, but projects are!

[gbrettell]

Then there are drop-outs, such as Bill Gates and Steve Jobs ...

A degree is another unit of measure ... some need one -- others don't.  Can't hurt having one.  Most human resource departments don't even look at an application if the applicant doesn't have a degree ...

Just because someone is a Doctor does not make them a great Doctor ... there are those who barely made passing grades and others that study well beyond their formal education.

I'd rather hire someone who is truly passionate about their work ... does it as a hobby, too ... someone who continues to want to learn well after college ... many get their degree, get hired, then 'settle in' and never progress beyond that point.

[mtdoc]

Yes, the doctor - nurse analogy does not make sense for several reasons:

There is no way to become a "self taught" doctor.

Doctor and nurses and have very different education, training, and job duties - with very little overlap.   Nurses are valuable members of a health care team and it's true that they can often give cues to help doctors (especially new ones) to help them better do their job but they are not trained to diagnose or make treatment decisions and their job duties are very different from a doctors.

Instead of nurse you could substitute physician assistant or nurse practitioner (whose training and job duties do overlap with physicians) but still the analogy does not hold because they are not self taught either.  They also require a degree and licensing by a medical board.

[tggzzz]

A degree is another unit of measure ... some need one -- others don't.  Can't hurt having one.  Most human resource departments don't even look at an application if the applicant doesn't have a degree ...

Just because someone is a Doctor does not make them a great Doctor ... there are those who barely made passing grades and others that study well beyond their formal education.

I'd rather hire someone who is truly passionate about their work ... does it as a hobby, too ... someone who continues to want to learn well after college ... many get their degree, get hired, then 'settle in' and never progress beyond that point.

Fundamentally I agree with most of that. I'm not going to defend HR-droids, especially since I have personal knowledge of circumstances in which they were filtering out interesting candidates. We told them to stop filtering and, reluctantly, they did stop.

But IMNSHO, passion is necessary but not sufficient. Competence, for the job in hand, is also necessary - and there are significantly different definitions of competence depending on the significantly different jobs in hand.

Anybody that does not recognise that is demonstrating  an, erm, "interestingly" myopic world view

[tggzzz]

Yes, the doctor - nurse analogy does not make sense for several reasons:

There is no way to become a "self taught" doctor.

Doctor and nurses and have very different education, training, and job duties - with very little overlap.   Nurses are valuable members of a health care team and it's true that they can often give cues to help doctors (especially new ones) to help them better do their job but they are not trained to diagnose or make treatment decisions and their job duties are very different from a doctors.

Instead of nurse you could substitute physician assistant or nurse practitioner (whose training and job duties do overlap with physicians) but still the analogy does not hold because they are not self taught either.  They also require a degree and licensing by a medical board.

Analogies are always dangerous and can always be taken beyonds the bounds of applicability.

Nonetheless, the healthcare situation is not as clearcut as you imply, and there is an illuminating degree of congruence between the healthcare and engineer/technician situations.

[tggzzz]

Also I have never met an electrical contractor qualified to design and install a PV solar system. But thats a different story.

I think that is a useful, illuminating, example - and hence not a different story!

A specific example I have encountered. Twice. Local radio stations hired  engineers to maintain transmitter sites. Both sites could not be made to conform to FCC requirements. Both sites re designed and rebuilt by old experienced hams. Both with no degrees but a whole lifetime of RF electronics knowledge. Both sites still running decades later. Both men still on call for work at the stations.

Not every situation is the same.

Precisely. Just so. I wish more people would acknowledge that.

[calexanian]

I think as mentioned before it is all summed up in one word. Competence. For situations like here in the states where there really is no such thing as a licensed electronic engineer. it boils down to Competence. In areas where such a thing does exist I would say you have to take it on a case by case basis depending on what the person is expected to be working on. But that is something I can't comment on because I do not live in a place with such a system.

[free_electron]

Doctors are the odd ones out (there was patch adams ...)
But even there .. Suppose you need heart surgery who you gonna pick ? Some doctor who's done  five thousand of em , one a day, and all went well or someone who's done five in the last ten years two patients died , one's a vegetable and they others arent doing s well. You dont want the guy that comes up to you and says 'let's see what happens' and shrugs his shoulders.

I'd want the guy with a lot of experience. Good experience , not lots of experience with dead people.
And that too is not something the degree warrants. The degree is a licence to operate for a doctor.
It does not prove how good he is. I would not want a heart surgery from a guy where it is his first time. -actually that would never happen. Newly minted doctors go on training under experienced surgeons before they even are allowed loose,mand even then a heart surgery is not the work of a single docotr. There is a whole team just so they can rely on each other to exchange idea's if there is an oh-shit moment during the operation. Would Dr Stufferstutt please put his finger in the hole in this artery while i go look for a suture ?

Scenarios like that dont happen in the lab. Would phd soandso please hold the resistor while i go grab the soldering iron..

[calexanian]

phd soandso never leaves enough lead length to meet the free air resistor dissipation rating.



Ok. I realize many of you here don't get that statement. Old man charlie here is going to tell you a story about days of old. Its an old electronics joke for newbies. People slap that 5 watt resistor on their pretty PCB and don't know why it burned the board, or un soldered itself. Resistors used to have a free air rating, and in addition to that a particular amount of standing lead to dissipate enough heat before getting to the PCB to avoid unsoldering the part and get an air gap between the resistor body and the board. They used to make ceramic sleeves to properly space them, or you could order resistors with pre formed leads with a kink in them to ensure proper spacing off the board.

[tggzzz]

I think as mentioned before it is all summed up in one word. Competence. For situations like here in the states where there really is no such thing as a licensed electronic engineer. it boils down to Competence. In areas where such a thing does exist I would say you have to take it on a case by case basis depending on what the person is expected to be working on. But that is something I can't comment on because I do not live in a place with such a system.

No. That's too simplistic.

What is necessary and sufficient is competence for the job.
Different jobs require different competencies.

Presence/absence of a degree is meaningless - unless it is in the context of a specific job.

[dannyf]

-I'd want the guy with a lot of experience. -

Agreed.end of the day, you want the job done right, degree or not.

-Good experience-

Not sure. I have told other that they should hire me because I have lost lots of money before so I know what not to do.

It has always worked.

[tggzzz]

-I'd want the guy with a lot of experience. -

Agreed.end of the day, you want the job done right, degree or not.

And in this example, to even start to get the desirable experience requires a degree. No degree = no experience.

Are you still going argue that a degree is irrelevant in this case?

[tggzzz]

phd soandso never leaves enough lead length to meet the free air resistor dissipation rating.



Ok. I realize many of you here don't get that statement. Old man charlie here is going to tell you a story about days of old. Its an old electronics joke for newbies. People slap that 5 watt resistor on their pretty PCB and don't know why it burned the board, or un soldered itself. Resistors used to have a free air rating, and in addition to that a particular amount of standing lead to dissipate enough heat before getting to the PCB to avoid unsoldering the part and get an air gap between the resistor body and the board. They used to make ceramic sleeves to properly space them, or you could order resistors with pre formed leads with a kink in them to ensure proper spacing off the board.

Sure, but that's a boring useless extreme. Just because a PhD tries to measure the impedance of the mains with a multimeter's ohms setting, doesn't indicate who is more likely to choose an appropriate control-system structure or RF modulation scheme.

Appropriateness for the job in hand is key. All else is indistinguishable from a chip on the shoulder.

[calexanian]

-I'd want the guy with a lot of experience. -

Agreed.end of the day, you want the job done right, degree or not.

And in this example, to even start to get the desirable experience requires a degree. No degree = no experience.

Are you still going argue that a degree is irrelevant in this case?

Can you name me some specific examples where a degree is required in electronics to get experience?

[tggzzz]

-I'd want the guy with a lot of experience. -

Agreed.end of the day, you want the job done right, degree or not.

And in this example, to even start to get the desirable experience requires a degree. No degree = no experience.

Are you still going argue that a degree is irrelevant in this case?

Can you name me some specific examples where a degree is required in electronics to get experience?

The example under discussion was, in case you had inexplicably missed it, the medical profession.

From your example, can you explain why competence in running a business requires compentence in electronic engineering. To me there are orthogonal: as a EE (doctor) I want to build new things (repair people), not reconcile accounts and deal with corporation tax etc.

[calexanian]

I missed Vincent's doctor experience example.

But I still pose my question as I had originally intended. Can anybody come up with an example where a degree is required to get experience in electronics?

[IconicPCB]

Free electron said:

"... Newly minted doctors go on training under experienced surgeons .."

One of the reasons why I would refuse  to work in an environment where a non engineer was a manager.

I do not want to be a doctor managed by a matron.

Self styled techos are just that ... matrons.

This is not being disparaging , simply realistic. Years of experience in a specialised area do not make a techo an engineer.

To wit.. it takes four years of bloody hard work to acquire the qualification .. it takes 5 minutes to recognise the sharp end of a screw driver.

IF the company requires an engineer .. they will get an engineer.

If the company requires someone to repair boards they will get a technician.