Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus

[mrflibble]

Oh, if only some sort of technology existed that would allow us to copy entire pieces of an article and paste it. This would assuredly be a huge boon to communication!

From the linked article in question:
https://www.wakingtimes.com/2020/05/15/bill-gates-explains-that-the-covid-vaccine-will-use-experimental-technology-and-permanently-alter-your-dna/

...

Alex Pietrowski, Staff Writer
Waking Times

CORRECTION: This article was recently reviewed by Politifact, and out of respect for their efforts to stop the spread of misinformation on Facebook, we have decided to issue this correction. Their comments can be read, here. At issue specifically were two claims that we made.

Firstly, that Gates said for certain the new vaccine will use RNA or DNA technology. We should have stated that Gates implied that there is a very good chance that this technology will be used, but that they don’t yet know for certain.

Secondly, our claim that an RNA or DNA vaccine will permanently alter your DNA is disputed on the grounds that some research into these vaccines shows that vaccines degrade naturally and do not alter DNA.

A quote from Politifact:

    Gates never said that the first licensed COVID-19 vaccine would use experimental technology or permanently alter DNA; he said specifically that “we don’t know yet what the COVID-19 vaccine will look like.” The most recent research also shows that RNA vaccines, which are being tested for COVID-19 right now, do degrade naturally and don’t alter DNA permanently.

It does appear that there is some contention over the potential that DNA vaccines may permanently change a person’s DNA, as highlighted in this white paper from biotech company Moderna, a leading developer of RNA vaccine technology:


    “DNA vaccine work began thirty years ago, but as yet there are no licensed DNA vaccines and most remain in Phase 1 testing.

    (Figure 5) The key challenge associated with DNA vaccines is that they must penetrate the cell nucleus (crossing two membranes; the cytoplasm and the nucleus). The DNA must then be transcribed in the nucleus into mRNA before moving to the cytoplasm to stimulate antigen production. This core complex pathway often requires both larger doses and special, often painful delivery devices using electric shocks or gold microspheres into person’s skin to deliver the DNA vaccine. Once inside the nucleus, DNA vaccines have a risk of permanently changing a person’s DNA. ” [Source]


...

etc.

It does help if you actually include the "CORRECTION:" bit right at the top of the article.

So yeah, I concur with paulca's "full of shit" label for this quality piece of information.

And on the topic of quality information, I took a semi-random sample from their "Trending now" articles:

https://www.wakingtimes.com/2020/07/08/the-mask-is-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-larval-form/

The article gets introduced with this header:

NOTE TO FACT CHECKERS: This is an editorial piece. It is my personal opinion. Nothing in the following collection of words can cause physical harm to anyone, nor can any of it be taken as offensive or be considered hate speech by any rational person. As a sovereign being I am entitled to express the thoughts in my head without censorship, punishment, reprisal, or threats against my livelihood. Please respect my right to free speech and self-expression, and respect the rights of those who wish to read this. This is not fake news. It is not misinformation. It is not dangerous, and it certainly is not racist. It is merely one man’s opinion expressed in editorial form. So please, whoever has ears, let them hear.

Dylan Charles, Editor
Waking Times

Translation: Leave me alone, all I am doing is writing some mythical Santa Claus fanfiction! Don't bother me with your pesky attempts at rationality. Bah, humbug!

And besides, RNA/DNA vaccination is sooooo simple and boring. Lets go full honey bee and use horizontal gene transfer. Way cooler!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3534371/

PS: RNA medication has huge potential, so personally I am all for more research in that area. Now if Homo sapiens could get a fucking grip on its fear of the unknown we could actually be getting somewhere. We've got the Homo part sorted by very definition, but the sapiens part still needs some work.

Yes and when you follow the link in that article to the FULL article you find an apology because they were full of shit and got called out.

Why do you lie? That's not what it says when you follow the link! Look:

"It does appear that there is some contention over the potential that DNA vaccines may permanently change a person’s DNA, as highlighted in this white paper from biotech company Moderna, a leading developer of RNA vaccine technology:

(Figure 5) The key challenge associated with DNA vaccines is that they must penetrate the cell nucleus (crossing two membranes; the cytoplasm and the nucleus). The DNA must then be transcribed in the nucleus into mRNA before moving to the cytoplasm to stimulate antigen production. This core complex pathway often requires both larger doses and special, often painful delivery devices using electric shocks or gold microspheres into person’s skin to deliver the DNA vaccine. Once inside the nucleus, DNA vaccines have a risk of permanently changing a person’s DNA. "

Moderna is the company that's developing Gates' vaccine.

Also:

"Two new technologies are in the COVID testing pipeline as we speak: DNA and RNA vaccines. They have never been released for public use. DNA technology is actually gene therapy. Genes are injected into the body, and they permanently alter the genetic makeup of the recipient in unknown ways. RNA vaccines would carry the danger of triggering autoimmune reactions, meaning the body basically goes to war against itself.

The vaccine that is being tapped by the US government… under its National Institutes of Health…through drug company Moderna…HAS NEVER BEEN USED ON THE PUBLIC BEFORE. IT IS NOT LICENSED FOR PUBLIC USE.

RNA VACCINES AND THE TECHNOLOGY THEY USE ARE ENTIRELY EXPERIMENTAL.

AND THIS IS THE TYPE OF VACCINE BEING RUSHED INTO EXISTENCE IN 90 DAYS.

What in the world could possibly go wrong?

One way to find out is to unleash it on millions of people, stand back, and see.” ~Jon Rappoport

Are you ready for your family and your children to be used as guinea pigs in the largest global health experiment ever conducted?"

[PlainName]

DNA vaccines have a risk of permanently changing a person’s DNA.

Probably worth pointing out, though it shouldn't be necessary, that 'have a risk' is not the same as 'will' or 'intended to'. Indeed, the article starts with "The key challenge associated with DNA vaccines..." which says to me that changing DNA is one of the issue they are working to prevent.

Reading that in the way george has is the same as thinking electricity can fry your brains, therefore anyone promoting electronics kit must be intending to execute you. It's more likely they're working on the reverse.

[DrG]

I hope that I am not reading kindling for an antivax thread derailment.

A safe and effective vaccine would certainly mitigate the impact of Covid on working from home and in virtually all areas of work, and there are currently some 199 vaccines in development. https://covid-19tracker.milkeninstitute.org/#vaccines_intro

There are representatives from the following vaccine approaches:  DNA-Based, Inactivated Virus, Live Attenuated Virus, Non-Replicating Viral Vector, Protein Subunit, Replicating Viral Vector, RNA-Based, Virus-Like Particle, and a few others which are only in preclinical development.

The Moderna RNA vaccine has entered Phase III, although Phase II and III are being conducted concurrently.

My understanding of an RNA vaccine is that it is really quite similar to a virus EXCEPT that there is no self-replication. The idea is that the vaccine will function to have a cell produce a protein that is recognized as an antigen, thus stimulating immune activity. By selecting production of the “right” protein creation, the stimulated immune activity will be effective against the targeted virus (CoVid19).

While there has never been a licensed RNA vaccine, a good deal of preclinical and clinical research has taken place in the Cancer area. What I gather is that in that research, the aim is for a customized tumor-specific “vaccine” of sorts.

Here is a nice, easy to understand, article explaining RNA vaccines. https://horizon-magazine.eu/article/five-things-you-need-know-about-mrna-vaccines.html
Vaccine safety starts at the preclinical phase and continues in ALL clinical phases. Phase 1 clinical research is specifically for safety (healthy normal volunteers), but II, III, IV and V all target safety.

Phase II is the first clinical trial for efficacy. Phase III being a larger efficacy trial. Again, my understanding is that licensing can be applied for after completion of a successful Phase III trial, but it is not a done deal at that point. For example, there may be limited or no testing of sub-populations like the elderly or very young.  Approval could be restricted.  Phases IV and V continue regardless of whether it is under the branding of pharmacovigilance, i.e., post release evaluation. Of course, the extent of efficacy is also a factor.

A couple of vaccines are listed as being in Phase III, including Moderna’s.

With nearly 200 vaccines in development, there is a lot of very exciting research going on and the best mitigation against a culture of grievance and ignorance is one of evidence and education.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

DNA vaccines have a risk of permanently changing a person’s DNA.

Probably worth pointing out, though it shouldn't be necessary, that 'have a risk' is not the same as 'will' or 'intended to'. Indeed, the article starts with "The key challenge associated with DNA vaccines..." which says to me that changing DNA is one of the issue they are working to prevent.

It seems that there's a risk that the vaccine's RNA that's programmed to attach to a sequence (of the virus?), mistakenly attaches instead to a similar sequence somewhere else in your DNA => blue screen of death. Or something like that

[bd139]

That's also one of those things, much like data corruption, that won't be noticed until it is far far far too late to do anything about it. Maybe years down the line.

I'm very worried that the social pressure that Covid has placed on the science community, plus the general shit show that academia and research is at the moment, that an important corner is going to be cut somewhere. Add to that the current political optics and objectivity and safety go out of the window. And that may have an excessively large impact on the population.

We've done it before with thalidomide and that was a fairly narrow portion of the population (pregnant women) and caused 80,000 deaths and 20,000 life changing outcomes.

To point out I'm no anti-vaxxer but I distrust the human race to do things properly when given a short time to do it in.

[SilverSolder]

I guess the safest type of vaccine would be one that we understand well, and already use versions of elsewhere...   meaning, quantum computer powered vaccines are probably not the first thing we should be reaching out for!

[DrG]

I guess the safest type of vaccine would be one that we understand well, and already use versions of elsewhere...   meaning, quantum computer powered vaccines are probably not the first thing we should be reaching out for!

No, the safest vaccine is one that does nothing at all. Edited to add: ...and that nobody thinks it does anything at all.

[Zero999]

I guess the safest type of vaccine would be one that we understand well, and already use versions of elsewhere...   meaning, quantum computer powered vaccines are probably not the first thing we should be reaching out for!

No, the safest vaccine is one that does nothing at all.

Not if people think it works.

[DrG]

I guess the safest type of vaccine would be one that we understand well, and already use versions of elsewhere...   meaning, quantum computer powered vaccines are probably not the first thing we should be reaching out for!

No, the safest vaccine is one that does nothing at all.

Not if people think it works.

Please PM me, I have some magic beans to sell you 

[SilverSolder]

I guess the safest type of vaccine would be one that we understand well, and already use versions of elsewhere...   meaning, quantum computer powered vaccines are probably not the first thing we should be reaching out for!

No, the safest vaccine is one that does nothing at all.

Not if people think it works.

The latest research says that placebos work - even if you know it's a placebo! 

[Buriedcode]

...
The latest research says that placebos work - even if you know it's a placebo! 

Depends on how you define "work".  They don't have any biological impact/effect, it's purely psychological.  That's why the effect (well, "effects" because there isn't just one) is most pronounced on ailments that have only subjective measures: pain, discomfort, "mood".  It's why the effects have been recruited by those selling snake oil - "well, even if it only works as a placebo, it still WORKS right?", which for something like, heart disease or cancer, the answer is "no".

[james_s]

A placebo might help stop your headache, but it's not going to prevent you from contracting a virus.

[Zero999]

A placebo might help stop your headache, but it's not going to prevent you from contracting a virus.

Yes, the idea a placebo will stop you catching a virus is bollocks. SilverSolder was joking. He's clearly not retarded enough to believe that. It's obvious someone who believes there immune, when there's not, is more likely to catch the virus, than someone who knows they're susceptible, because they'll not bother with social distancing or mask wearing.

[DrG]

I guess the safest type of vaccine would be one that we understand well, and already use versions of elsewhere...   meaning, quantum computer powered vaccines are probably not the first thing we should be reaching out for!

No, the safest vaccine is one that does nothing at all.

Not if people think it works.

The latest research says that placebos work - even if you know it's a placebo! 

A placebo vaccine could, conceivably, lead to an increased likelihood of infection. If the individual became confident of their perceived immunity, they might engage in high risk behavior that would increase the likelihood of contact with the pathogen and, therefore, increase the likelihood of infection.

It is more of a stretch to conceive of how a placebo vaccine could actually protect against infection. The rationale would likely be some idea that the placebo effect increased the individual’s affect, resulting in an increased resilience. A variation on the “happy people have better immune system functioning than miserable people”.

In either case, you would be very hard-pressed to ever find any legitimate research suggesting either.

The point that I was trying to raise was that all vaccines have risks associated with them. In my view, our job (be us virologists, drug companies or consumers) is to understand the risks to enable us to make evidenced-based decisions.

[DrG]

...
The latest research says that placebos work - even if you know it's a placebo! 

Depends on how you define "work".  They don't have any biological impact/effect, it's purely psychological.  That's why the effect (well, "effects" because there isn't just one) is most pronounced on ailments that have only subjective measures: pain, discomfort, "mood".  It's why the effects have been recruited by those selling snake oil - "well, even if it only works as a placebo, it still WORKS right?", which for something like, heart disease or cancer, the answer is "no".

“They don't have any biological impact/effect, it's purely psychological” I hear and read this sentiment a lot. I contend that it simply makes no sense. Psychological effects, be they pure or otherwise, are physical events; biological, neurological, chemical and so on.

In modern science, there is no logical reason to differentiate a psychological event from a biological event in that manner.

You basically have two choices; psychological effects exist in the physical world or they don’t, that is, they are unreal or perhaps ethereal. The latter is faith-based and with that exception (which could apply to any/all events), I would defy anyone to explain an event that is psychological but not physical (biological, neurological, chemical and so on – the point being that the event resides in the physical world).

You might think that I am being picky, but if you made that statement to a group of neuroscientists, I think you would hear some objections. I hope that many EEs would also see the problem. Yes, sure, this is casual conversation, but even in casual conversation, I don't think that you could stand on a "you know what I mean" defense, because I really don't.

[PlainName]

Psychological effects, be they pure or otherwise, are physical events; biological, neurological, chemical and so on.

In modern science, there is no logical reason to differentiate a psychological event from a biological event in that manner.

I think you are conflating cause and effect. A psychological issue might be the effect of a physical cause, but can't itself be a physical event. A physical effect can be the result of physical event and itself be a physical event.

[Nusa]

I think working from home increases trolling. Some of you are actively trolling, while others are placebos.

[DrG]

Psychological effects, be they pure or otherwise, are physical events; biological, neurological, chemical and so on.

In modern science, there is no logical reason to differentiate a psychological event from a biological event in that manner.

I think you are conflating cause and effect. A psychological issue might be the effect of a physical cause, but can't itself be a physical event. A physical effect can be the result of physical event and itself be a physical event.

No, I am not conflating cause and effect or anything else. There is no reason to play with words here either. Psychological events are real events in the physical world and there is absolutely no reason to separate them from real events in the physical world. Whether they are patterns of firing neurons in particular pathways or a particular configuration of proteins on the surface of a single neuron or patterns of increases and decreases in the biochemistry of the CNS or many other physical events - most of which is poorly understood but many advancements have been made. Regardless, they are real events in the physical world, whether they are understood well or not at all.

When you remember something that happened to you in your childhood, that memory is a physical entity. It resides in your brain as a physical entity that can be studied and understood. The same goes for what you might call emotions, rainbows, music, art, beauty, and so on.

When you hear a bell, it is not a psychological event (whether you salivate or not) that is somehow outside the realm of the physical world. The sound pressure waves falling on your sensors is the simplest part of hearing that bell - in fact, I can stimulate parts of your brain and you will see and hear things in the absence of any sound and light.

Again, if "psychological" events are not real events in the physical world, then it is incumbent on you to explain to me where/how psychological events exist. Without the exception previously noted, you can't do that, so why try to separate the psychological world from the physical world. It makes no sense because they are not separate worlds.

[PlainName]

When you remember something that happened to you in your childhood, that memory is a physical entity.

It is physical in the sense that some physical event caused it. It is not physical in the sense that it can affect anything (except another psychological state).

What we are talking about here is not what something is made of (i.e. psychological events are made of chemicals, etc) but what something affects downstream (i.e. what taking a poison would do to your body).

That's why I said I think you are conflating things - what something is made of vs what something can do.

When you hear a bell, it is not a psychological event

Actually, it can be.I am profoundly deaf but I hear things all the time. Show me a switch and I'll hear it click, despite being physically incapable of doing so. That's what we understand as a psychological effect, despite some physical chemical event that produces the illusion of hearing.

[DrG]

When you remember something that happened to you in your childhood, that memory is a physical entity.

It is physical in the sense that some physical event caused it. It is not physical in the sense that it can affect anything (except another psychological state).

What we are talking about here is not what something is made of (i.e. psychological events are made of chemicals, etc) but what something affects downstream (i.e. what taking a poison would do to your body).

That's why I said I think you are conflating things - what something is made of vs what something can do.

I am sorry, but you simply do not make sense to me at all and I mean that sincerely and without hostility. I will repeat, "Again, if "psychological" events are not real events in the physical world, then it is incumbent on you to explain to me where/how psychological events exist". If you want to coin a term "psychological state" and claim that it is not something that exists in the physical world that can be studied and can be understood, I can't relate to you. If you want to disregard the initial statement that I responded to [“They don't have any biological impact/effect, it's purely psychological” ], I can't relate to you.

In short, I am probably done with this part of the discussion because I just don't think it would be productive. I stand by what I said. I received my PhD many years ago and worked successfully for decades as, what you would likely call, a neuroscientist. This is not a new area for me. None of that, by itself, makes me right, but it means that I have been through this discussion with about 50 or so EEs and some of them simply do not want to open their minds to this concept and they will actively fight against understanding the concept. I am ok with that, but I still try, just not as hard as I used to try.

[Syntax Error]

What about the psychological affect of people partying on as if corona virus had never happend? It looks as if Europe is spiralling close to a 'Covid 2.0' sequel, with a spike in new infections mostly in the 28 to 40 demograph.

Meanwhile in Pommieland, inspired by Britain's lycra fan Prime Minister, the UK Government is encouraging the English to get the economy moving by offering £50 vouchers to repair unloved bicycles, so citizens can "embrace cycling". After all, you'd need to be a nut to use public transport... cough cough cough.
Sounds too good to be true? At time of writing, there are NO vouchers available because there are not enough cycle repair shops or 'qualified mechanics' signed up to implement the scheme. This de-railer is possibly because those who would sign up, are unwilling or unable to indeminify their recon' work to the sum of (from) £2M.
So carry on using the bus, on balance it's safer than being hit by one.

[bd139]

Or just stay the fuck at home if you can where you don’t have to go on a disease ridden shit box. Incidentally I called them that before Covid

[nctnico]

Yeah. Public transport is the ideal place to spread whatever virus is around. I doubt I'll be able to avoid it any longer though but I'm worried what August is going to bring regarding Covid-19 spreading numbers. I (kinda) intend to start using the train again in September but I'm not convinced it is a good idea.

Meanwhile I'm on a holiday in (mostly) France. Face masks and disinfecting hands is required inside shops, restaurants and hotels. I'm wondering what all the hand desinfectant is going to do long term. The measures in hotels are all over the place. Some have the breakfast buffets open as usual, some reduce the number of people at the buffet, others serve breakfast like in a old style shop (point what you want and they put it on your plate) and others require to fill in a form and tell what time you want to have breakfast. At breakfast you get a pre-defined table and a tray with what your ordered.

Biggest problem now is that there is a curfew in Belgium right in the area we need to cross to get home and that same area has been labelled as a no-go zone for people from the NL. I guess we'll just need to make sure to fuel up the car and don't stop anywhere in Belgium.

[jonovid]

all this co v id 19 stuff is simply not making any sense,  any more, with all the fearmongering in the mainstream media
just 3o minutes of this type of Tv news , is enough to make most people depressed.
will my privacy be violated if I shop at one of your _____ stores?
so will I be confronted by barrier tape & witches hats at the doorway?
will I be harassed by your team members for not wearing a hazmat suit or balaclava?
will I be refuse service if I do not look like a bank robber?
government recommendations are just that a recommendation, not compulsory

[PlainName]

government recommendations are just that a recommendation, not compulsory

Why do you think they have recommendations? They want to achieve some effect and that will (probably) happen if people follow the recommendations. If people ignore them because they are not compulsory then whatever they want to achieve (probably) won't occur.

Recommendations tend to be a short-term more-or-less requirement. If you prefer, I'm sure they could waste time and effort on drafting yet another law which will be unenforceable and come into force just after the horse has bolted and then remain on the books to catch you out.

A recommendation is preferable over a mandatory requirement because you can have special exceptions without problems. But they have to be special - if you basically ignore it all just because, then it's likely to be made mandatory and lead to hassle for everyone. Not to mention, in the 'co v id 19' case, ignore-able by those who have got fucked in the meantime.

The only issue should be: is this a reasonable way to achieve that end, and is it an end I want to be part of. Yes? Just do what they recommend.