Author Topic: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus  (Read 246904 times)

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Online Zero999

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1725 on: June 30, 2020, 11:15:46 am »
That is worse than Spanish Flu.
People love comparing any new infection with Spanish flu, but most of those comparisons miss something important. In 1920 most people worked almost to the point of death. They were typically fit enough to work until some point where they went downhill rapidly and were gone. Most people didn't spend years in a weak and vulnerable state, perhaps in care home, at the end of their lives. Now, retirement and care homes are a huge industry. We don't need something as powerful as Spanish flu to rip through a substantial section of the population. Any half assed infection novel enough to become widespread is a huge risk to the elderly, and new infections are popping up all the time. Just a couple of days ago I read about a new form of swine flu, while we are still in the middle of the COVID-19 problem. The inevitability of new pathogens needs to be factored into how society functions. Remember that Beijing was a large city when the largest cites in Europe were much smaller, and limited by their infection related death rates. Beijing was big through a single innovation in Chinese culture - hygiene. They didn't clean up the place because of an understanding of biology. It was mostly a cultural thing, because the city folk had to be more refined than the plebs in the countryside, but it worked. Civil engineering has done more to make the modern world healthy than any medical care. We need to up our hygiene game once again.
I agree, we can't compare COVID-19 to the Spanish flu, because the health of the human population and level of medical care aren't equal.

The Spanish flu disproportionately affected younger people, whislt COVID-19 tends to kill the old, as most viruses do. This could be because conditions favoured more spread in sicker, young patients. Normally when people get flu, the sicker they become, the more likely they'll stay in and not go to work, thus transmitting it to fewer people, than those who have a milder illness, which tends to make it less deadly, over time. In the case of the Spanish flu, there are large outbreaks on the battlefield and the sickest people were transported to hospital, allowing the infection to be transmitted to medical personnel, who spreaded it further. As with COVID-19, lots of the damage is caused by the immune response, so younger people with strong immune systems were disproportionately affected. Unfortunately we don't know why the same isn't the case with COVID-19.

We now have better treatments and people are more well fed, than back in 1918, which would have made the Spanish flu more deadly, than if the same disease would occur today. One of the reasons why the Asian flu pandemic of 1958 wasn't as bad, was probably due to better diets, healthcare and a vaccine being developed.

Unfortunately if COVID-19 mutates, I suspect it will be to increase the length of the asymptomatic period, rathar than becomming less deadly, because we're quarantining people.
 

Offline DrG

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1726 on: June 30, 2020, 12:41:23 pm »
/--/
Unfortunately if COVID-19 mutates, I suspect it will be to increase the length of the asymptomatic period, rathar than becomming less deadly, because we're quarantining people.

The virus mutates with some regularity. Question becomes whether there are biologically significant mutations and do they become dominant. There is some compelling evidence that the D614G mutation is both https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2020/06/29/coronavirus-mutation-science/?arc404=true

It is speculative, but there is some evidence/belief that the mutation effect speeds transmission.
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Offline tom66

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1727 on: June 30, 2020, 02:55:07 pm »
One of the biggest reasons the Spanish Flu spread in younger populations was because men were on the front lines and were returning home.  Men of fighting age (18 ~ 30(?)) will have been most badly affected because of this.  The secondary issue is that governments of the time covered up the virus because it was so devastating to morale.  So people didn't take precautions as seriously as they should have. The name "Spanish Flu" comes from neutral Spain being the only country to regularly report on the virus so people believed it to be of Spanish origin. It was likely a mutated form of Russian Flu.  This could also indicate a third reason as many older individuals had the milder Russian Flu during the 1890 pandemic, and had effectively gained immunity to Spanish Flu being so similar.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 02:56:43 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1728 on: June 30, 2020, 09:32:58 pm »
It's official. Here in LA you can protest but you can not celebrate Independence day since fireworks are outlawed, no exceptions. You are allowed to stay home though, I guess that's nice.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1729 on: July 01, 2020, 01:26:37 am »
The idiocy of certain local governments astonishes me...
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Offline james_s

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1730 on: July 01, 2020, 04:38:10 am »
I suspect that preventing people from protesting is difficult because the right to peaceful assembly is protected by the consitution, while fireworks and celebrating holidays are not constitutionally protected rights. I don't think the founding fathers were thinking about the threat of a global pandemic when they wrote the constitutional rights. Perhaps they didn't feel it necessary as anyone with any sense would take measures to protect themselves and others from infection but things seem to have changed. I suspect it's a combination of having a population that is too large, modern technology that spreads information around the world in seconds rather than uprisings and outrage being more isolated, and the fact that we've enjoyed generations of life being easier and more cushy than any point in human history.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1731 on: July 01, 2020, 05:21:32 am »
We also have the right to trade our labor as we please and they put a stop to that. There is absolutely zero consistency. They're threatening to revoke restaurant licenses if they offer goods and services too. I don't understand why you like to pick and choose which rights are good and which we can throw out. It's pure statism dictating the actions of supposedly free people. Did you know our tax money went towards the fireworks shows we're no longer allowed to have? You don't have to gather in large groups for fireworks because they're in the sky.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1732 on: July 01, 2020, 06:00:02 am »
We also have the right to trade our labor as we please and they put a stop to that. There is absolutely zero consistency. They're threatening to revoke restaurant licenses if they offer goods and services too. I don't understand why you like to pick and choose which rights are good and which we can throw out. It's pure statism dictating the actions of supposedly free people. Did you know our tax money went towards the fireworks shows we're no longer allowed to have? You don't have to gather in large groups for fireworks because they're in the sky.

Where did I say I like to pick and choose? I'm just stating reasons it may be difficult to prevent some things from a legal and logistical standpoint. If it were up to me I'd institute a consistent lockdown across the nation, close off state or county borders, close all non-essential gathering including churches and political rallies and ban the protesting too but it's not up to me and I don't know how you'd ever enforce it. They can't even keep people from burning down police stations and rampaging through cities destroying federal property and private businesses, the US government has utterly failed at it's most basic duties from the top down. The entire response to the pandemic and resulting unrest has been a chaotic train wreck mired in partisan bickering. It's a complete and utter shitshow, the rest of the world is looking at us with pity and disbelief. 

I'd love to see a good fireworks show but you know as well as I do that there would be massive gatherings in every park within view. People are already crowding the parks and beaches any time the sun is out, there's no way they're going to spread out and behave at a large attraction like that, at least not with the geography in my area.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 06:02:06 am by james_s »
 

Online PlainName

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1733 on: July 01, 2020, 11:33:21 am »
Quote
the rest of the world is looking at us with pity and disbelief

Actually, we're grateful for the demo of how anywhere could be slightly worse here   :-\
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1734 on: July 01, 2020, 12:29:25 pm »
(...)
I'd love to see a good fireworks show but you know as well as I do that there would be massive gatherings in every park within view. People are already crowding the parks and beaches any time the sun is out, there's no way they're going to spread out and behave at a large attraction like that, at least not with the geography in my area.
...and isn't that a right to assemble protected by the constitution as well? :-DD

Sure, maybe fireworks wouldn't happen, but if people want to go out on their Americana gear and celebrate, they can't be stopped.

Not only that, but chances of a 4th of July celebration assembly is much more likely to be peaceful than a protest.
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1735 on: July 01, 2020, 02:16:44 pm »
We also have the right to trade our labor as we please[...]

I don't think that has been completely true for a very long time.  We all get put in little boxes and a lot of effort goes into making sure we stay there.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1736 on: July 01, 2020, 03:53:56 pm »
We also have the right to trade our labor as we please[...]

I don't think that has been completely true for a very long time.  We all get put in little boxes and a lot of effort goes into making sure we stay there.

We also have national minimum wage and that inhibits it, more micro management of it in some states/areas limits the ability further as well. Some trades are illegal(hired killer, prostitute in many areas, drug dealer etc...) but they're not strictly illegal it's just that in the course you're going to break the law. The idea is still there that the government can't/shouldn't tell me how I choose to trade my labor which is definitely being violated in its entirety for many people.

I'm high risk so I'm staying home anyway but I don't see how so many of these decisions change anything. The sheriffs have already said they won't enforce the beach bans and for the sake of liberty I hope the people who have already purchased the fireworks choose to have their show anyway. Just for the sake of liberty, the fireworks themselves are incidental.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1737 on: July 01, 2020, 04:53:39 pm »
Somehow I don't think the framers of the constitution considered a global pandemic in a world with affordable mass transit in cars/buses/trains,  and aircraft to spread any infection, when they were writing it.

There's an obsession with the constitution in the USA.  No doubt it is important, having the right to free speech so emphasised in law is clearly useful and prevents many authoritarian behaviours from the government (e.g. banning flag burning.)  But in the case of a pandemic, norms don't apply any more.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1738 on: July 01, 2020, 04:57:21 pm »
Somehow I don't think the framers of the constitution considered a global pandemic in a world with affordable mass transit in cars/buses/trains,  and aircraft to spread any infection, when they were writing it.
Since it was pandemics which allowed Europeans to settle North America so easily, I imagine the possibility of further pandemics rapidly spread by efficient travel technologies wouldn't have been too far from their minds.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1739 on: July 01, 2020, 07:16:27 pm »
Somehow I don't think the framers of the constitution considered a global pandemic in a world with affordable mass transit in cars/buses/trains,  and aircraft to spread any infection, when they were writing it.

There's an obsession with the constitution in the USA.  No doubt it is important, having the right to free speech so emphasised in law is clearly useful and prevents many authoritarian behaviours from the government (e.g. banning flag burning.)  But in the case of a pandemic, norms don't apply any more.

I admire the American constitution, but I don't understand why such an old document is not being kept up-to-date as time goes and society changes - surely America has moved on in 200 odd years...
 

Online coppice

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1740 on: July 01, 2020, 07:32:51 pm »
Somehow I don't think the framers of the constitution considered a global pandemic in a world with affordable mass transit in cars/buses/trains,  and aircraft to spread any infection, when they were writing it.

There's an obsession with the constitution in the USA.  No doubt it is important, having the right to free speech so emphasised in law is clearly useful and prevents many authoritarian behaviours from the government (e.g. banning flag burning.)  But in the case of a pandemic, norms don't apply any more.

I admire the American constitution, but I don't understand why such an old document is not being kept up-to-date as time goes and society changes - surely America has moved on in 200 odd years...
Two issues there. One is they have changed it numerous times. That's what all the amendments do. The second is the whole point of a constitution is to be a framework that is damned hard to change. If it were easier it would just be some laws, and provide no framework at all.
 
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Offline DrG

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1741 on: July 01, 2020, 07:35:55 pm »
/--/
I admire the American constitution, but I don't understand why such an old document is not being kept up-to-date as time goes and society changes - surely America has moved on in 200 odd years...

See the 27 amendments to the US C over the years https://www.insider.com/what-are-all-the-amendments-us-constitution-meaning-history-2018-11#the-fifth-amendment-is-the-source-of-the-common-phrase-i-plead-the-fifth-5 and, of course, the many interpretations by the Judicial branch.

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Offline james_s

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1742 on: July 01, 2020, 07:43:32 pm »
Two issues there. One is they have changed it numerous times. That's what all the amendments do. The second is the whole point of a constitution is to be a framework that is damned hard to change. If it were easier it would just be some laws, and provide no framework at all.

Yes, it should not be completely immutable but it needs to be extremely difficult to change. Constitutional amendments should be given a great deal of thought and crafted very carefully. They should never be the product of emotion and never written in haste. It is the fundamental foundation on which all of our other laws are based, it cannot be in a constant state of flux.
 
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Offline DrG

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1743 on: July 02, 2020, 08:18:54 pm »
Never, EVER, taunt a virus.



20-May-2020, Governor of Florida, Ron DeSantos, boasts about how well Florida was doing with Corona Virus and how the partisan media was going on and on about how Florida would be a hot spot opening up...

02-July-2020 Florida reports OVER 10,000 new cases today and 5,000-10,000 new cases every day for the last seven days.

Now, one could take some pride in how a State is doing, knocking on wood, calling for vigilance, telling everyone to keep it up and that things will get better eventually, but we are not out of the woods and we have to keep our guard up, you know, all that rational, non-partisan stuff....but Noooooooooooooooo.



More complete news conference viewable below in case it is too hard to believe...you can't make this stuff up and it is sad.



« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 08:28:58 pm by DrG »
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Offline james_s

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1744 on: July 02, 2020, 09:10:56 pm »
20-May-2020, Governor of Florida, Ron DeSantos, boasts about how well Florida was doing with Corona Virus and how the partisan media was going on and on about how Florida would be a hot spot opening up...

02-July-2020 Florida reports OVER 10,000 new cases today and 5,000-10,000 new cases every day for the last seven days.


This illustrates what I've been trying to tell people for months now. I live in what was the epicenter for Covid infection in the entire US, it happened here first and then the same thing has gone on to happen throughout other parts of the country. Covid is no big deal, only a few infections, nothing to see here, then suddenly the shit hits the fan and the infection rate goes almost vertical, by the time you realize anything is wrong it's way too late to stop. We've seen this over and over again, I don't know what makes people think their area will somehow be different.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1745 on: July 02, 2020, 09:46:28 pm »
20-May-2020, Governor of Florida, Ron DeSantos, boasts about how well Florida was doing with Corona Virus and how the partisan media was going on and on about how Florida would be a hot spot opening up...

02-July-2020 Florida reports OVER 10,000 new cases today and 5,000-10,000 new cases every day for the last seven days.


This illustrates what I've been trying to tell people for months now. I live in what was the epicenter for Covid infection in the entire US, it happened here first and then the same thing has gone on to happen throughout other parts of the country. Covid is no big deal, only a few infections, nothing to see here, then suddenly the shit hits the fan and the infection rate goes almost vertical, by the time you realize anything is wrong it's way too late to stop. We've seen this over and over again, I don't know what makes people think their area will somehow be different.

Hmmm... trying to think of a word that means the opposite of intelligent....     :D
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1746 on: July 02, 2020, 10:37:11 pm »
We also have national minimum wage and that inhibits it, more micro management of it in some states/areas limits the ability further as well. Some trades are illegal(hired killer, prostitute in many areas, drug dealer etc...) but they're not strictly illegal it's just that in the course you're going to break the law. The idea is still there that the government can't/shouldn't tell me how I choose to trade my labor which is definitely being violated in its entirety for many people.
That looks like a rather skewed definition of liberty. More like being anti-social / without respect for other people's wellbeing. The basic principle is that your freedom ends where another person's freedom starts. So you might want to argue that you are 'free' to do what you want but if that ends up hurting someone you have overstepped your boundaries. You might choose to become a hitman or drug-dealer but I'm quite sure you are aware that such professions end up hurting other people. The same goes for ignoring Covid-19 restrictions; you end up hurting other people.
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1747 on: July 02, 2020, 11:14:26 pm »
We also have national minimum wage and that inhibits it, more micro management of it in some states/areas limits the ability further as well. Some trades are illegal(hired killer, prostitute in many areas, drug dealer etc...) but they're not strictly illegal it's just that in the course you're going to break the law. The idea is still there that the government can't/shouldn't tell me how I choose to trade my labor which is definitely being violated in its entirety for many people.
That looks like a rather skewed definition of liberty. More like being anti-social / without respect for other people's wellbeing. The basic principle is that your freedom ends where another person's freedom starts. So you might want to argue that you are 'free' to do what you want but if that ends up hurting someone you have overstepped your boundaries. You might choose to become a hitman or drug-dealer but I'm quite sure you are aware that such professions end up hurting other people. The same goes for ignoring Covid-19 restrictions; you end up hurting other people.

Those professions, again, are illegal because you'll do illegal things in the course of them. I don't see the problem or why that's anti social?  Same with restrictions that don't change end results. Fireworks for instance don't even require people to group up to enjoy them so what is the harm? How about a beach, in the sterilizing sun(as far as covid is concerned), where people typically don't want to be on top of each other anyway(maybe your beaches are different)? What about wearing a mask on my own property just because I'm outside, does that really make sense? I'm sure you can justify any restrictions but you could also just live in China and not have to think for yourself at all.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1748 on: July 03, 2020, 12:36:05 am »
Quote
hose professions, again, are illegal because you'll do illegal things in the course of them. I don't see the problem or why that's anti social?

If you knew you have HIV, would it be OK to express your freedom to have sex with whoever you want without telling them of your status?

And as often-cited, freedom of speech doesn't mean you can shout 'Fire!' in a packed theatre without consequences.

Neither of those involve illegal acts, so why is your freedom to pass covid19 around greater than someones freedom to not die prematurely because of your behaviour?
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
« Reply #1749 on: July 03, 2020, 12:46:24 am »
It's literally legal here to have aids and not tell someone before you have unprotected sex. To me that's a criminal act but the US at large apparently disagrees. When did I ever say you should do these things or spread a disease? I'm saying restrictions which don't do anything aren't just idiotic but anti-america. However people at a long term care facility are commonly walking around my neighborhood during breaks with no masks which they should wear because they're constantly around high risk people and walking by people they couldn't know if they're carriers.

Again we're expecting everyone to catch it so protect those at risk and leave everyone else to their own devices. It'll sort itself out in a month rather than dragging it on forever. My local hospital would appreciate it if the constant mailers saying please come in are anything to go by.

Again, I'm high risk so I stay home. I'm honestly more worried about the government passing more trillion+ dollar bills than the Coronavirus.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 12:48:43 am by maginnovision »
 


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