Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus

[Syntax Error]

A concise report on the UK's covid app u-turn from MacWorld:

Apparently the original app was able to judge the distance between two users, but wasn’t good at identifying iPhones - it was only capturing details from 4% of iPhones compared to 75% of Android handsets.

The Apple/Google option, on-the-other-hand, logged 99% of Androids and iPhones

https://www.macworld.co.uk/news/apple/how-covid-tracing-will-work-on-your-iphone-protect-your-privacy-3787408/

[PlainName]

Many phones purposely randomize their MAC to avoid being tracked..

The failure was down to apps not working in the background on Apple devices, hence not being able to sniff BT devices unless the phone is awake and the screen on. Nothing to do with the MAC (a GUID was used to identify passing phones).

[SilverSolder]

Many phones purposely randomize their MAC to avoid being tracked..

The failure was down to apps not working in the background on Apple devices, hence not being able to sniff BT devices unless the phone is awake and the screen on. Nothing to do with the MAC (a GUID was used to identify passing phones).

My understanding is there is no official API to allow that to happen,  but - magically - the Apple developed software is able to do it.   No abuse of monopoly position there, then.

[NiHaoMike]

For those who don't like the idea of tracking, wouldn't it be fairly easy to build a device that can receive the tracking signal from a much greater range than intended and then repeat the signal for a much greater range than intended? Then have those devices participate in a mesh network and spread the signal even further. Basically break it by generating tons of false positives.

[SilverSolder]

For those who don't like the idea of tracking, wouldn't it be fairly easy to build a device that can receive the tracking signal from a much greater range than intended and then repeat the signal for a much greater range than intended? Then have those devices participate in a mesh network and spread the signal even further. Basically break it by generating tons of false positives.

I've found the best way to deal with the intrusiveness is to just turn the phone off!  Then deal with the voicemail and messages when you turn it back on.   Makes the battery last much longer too!

[themadhippy]

UK abandons coronavirus app in favour of Apple and Google model. Government will switch to contact-tracing model preferred by tech giants in latest embarrassing U-turn.

Typical uk goverbent,they always  forget tiny little details,like talking to apple.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53105642

[cdev]

BBC: "However, the BBC has discovered that one of the main reasons the initiative is running behind schedule is that developers are having problems using Bluetooth as a means to estimate distance."


Yup, thats what the inventors of BTLE were saying too.. that it was literally impossible to use it how they claimed they were going to.

China must have been bullshitting people.

UK abandons coronavirus app in favour of Apple and Google model. Government will switch to contact-tracing model preferred by tech giants in latest embarrassing U-turn.

Typical uk goverbent,they always  forget tiny little details,like talking to apple.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53105642

[PlainName]

Yup, thats what the inventors of BTLE were saying too.. that it was literally impossible to use it how they claimed they were going to.

That must be why the Proximity Profile spec is really hard to find, then.

Oh, wait... PXP at bluetooth.org

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For anyone playing at home, the BBC offers a timeline into the failure of the UK's Covid tracking app development.

Coronavirus: What went wrong with the UK's contact tracing app? By Rory Cellan-Jones
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53114251

Meanwhile on Github, contributors to the NHSX covid iOS app are wondering why the new wonder "hybrid" app is not in a public repo? https://github.com/nhsx/COVID-19-app-iOS-BETA/issues/33

Back in April there was a workable api platform and developers who would have built a tracking app for free. Instead months later and millions of pounds spent, all that has been achieved is yet another British public sector I.T. project failure 

[SilverSolder]

For anyone playing at home, the BBC offers a timeline into the failure of the UK's Covid tracking app development.

Coronavirus: What went wrong with the UK's contact tracing app? By Rory Cellan-Jones
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53114251

Meanwhile on Github, contributors to the NHSX covid iOS app are wondering why the new wonder "hybrid" app is not in a public repo? https://github.com/nhsx/COVID-19-app-iOS-BETA/issues/33

Back in April there was a workable api platform and developers who would have built a tracking app for free. Instead months later and millions of pounds spent, all that has been achieved is yet another British public sector I.T. project failure 

When ideology comes into the picture,  pragmatism often evaporates.

[cdev]

Why did they spend all this time and energy on an idea that a 10 year old could have told them at the beginning wouldn't work? (and it seems Apple and Google recently told them but they are trying to spin it so it wouldnt be as obvious how stupid they were)

[cdev]

Thats what they said in the other thread and I linked to it in the very first post, and if you read this most recent article Apple and Google said it too, that its impossible to tell if people were close enough to catch covid 19 indoors or not. Sources doesnt get any more authoritative than authors of the protocol.

Something thats used for medical use is a lot different than something thats used to unlock your screensaver or ring your mobile when you are at your desk

Yup, thats what the inventors of BTLE were saying too.. that it was literally impossible to use it how they claimed they were going to.

That must be why the Proximity Profile spec is really hard to find, then.

Oh, wait... PXP at bluetooth.org

[EEVblog]

Yup, thats what the inventors of BTLE were saying too.. that it was literally impossible to use it how they claimed they were going to.

That must be why the Proximity Profile spec is really hard to find, then.
Oh, wait... PXP at bluetooth.org

Shame how on Apple iOS it doesn't work unless the app is on and in focus on the screen 100% of the time, which is how 0% of people use their phone.
That was one of the huge issues that made the Aussie tracing app useless.
There was talk that Apple had to release some sort or toolkit to allow it but had not done so last I heard.

[SilverSolder]

Yup, thats what the inventors of BTLE were saying too.. that it was literally impossible to use it how they claimed they were going to.

That must be why the Proximity Profile spec is really hard to find, then.
Oh, wait... PXP at bluetooth.org

Shame how on Apple iOS it doesn't work unless the app is on and in focus on the screen 100% of the time, which is how 0% of people use their phone.
That was one of the huge issues that made the Aussie tracing app useless.
There was talk that Apple had to release some sort or toolkit to allow it but had not done so last I heard.

Apple's Bluetooth (BLE) implementation is very restrictive.  Android is better, but can be flaky and there are quite big differences in real world behaviour between different phones and OS revisions.  BLE isn't yet "industrial strength".

[nctnico]

Over here the contact tracking app is about to be field tested. BTW In the NL the lockdown will be ended next week except for clubs and large events. This is much sooner than expected; so far the dot on the horizon was set at the 1st of September. Social distancing, testing and contact tracing will be used to prevent & monitor spread of Covid-19.

[SerieZ]

We also just released our own Covid-App... which is voluntary... and may cause you to loose Income if you have to go quarantine because you were linked with someone who has had it without being sick yourself.
 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Shame how on Apple iOS it doesn't work unless the app is on and in focus on the screen 100% of the time, which is how 0% of people use their phone.
That was one of the huge issues that made the Aussie tracing app useless.
There was talk that Apple had to release some sort or toolkit to allow it but had not done so last I heard.

That's weird because when the phone is linked via BT with a device that's on, in range and connected (*), the MAC is visible and there's no way to avoid it IIANM.

On the other hand, if BT is enabled but there's no active BT connection, that's when the iPhones randomize the MAC to avoid being tracked, or at least that's what I've heard.

(*) Usually those white worms that pop out of the ears of all apple fanboyz.

[DrG]

Not sure if everyone will get this short clip, but it is clever, I think. On the old TV sit-com Parks and Recreation, they had a reoccurring plot scenario of a town hall meeting where all these outrageous characters expressed themselves. That is what is going on here EXCEPT spliced in our actual scenes from a Town Hall Meeting where a face covering mandate was passed...in a county in Florida, a state that had almost 9000 new cases today.



and let me not forget my Brit friends, seen here, exemplifying both the need for wearing face coverings and social distancing:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/26/football/liverpool-fans-police-criticize-gathering-anfield-title-win-spt-intl/index.html

Yep, we got this thing licked!

[maginnovision]

I thought we were still working under the assumption that everyone will catch it and we just want hospitals available for when people need them? If that's still the modus operandi then I don't see how new cases matter. We can have a million cases a day if they don't overwhelm the hospitals.

[EEVblog]

I thought we were still working under the assumption that everyone will catch it and we just want hospitals available for when people need them? If that's still the modus operandi then I don't see how new cases matter. We can have a million cases a day if they don't overwhelm the hospitals.

Because it's a boogeyman, and people from all walks of life and the media and especially politicians have realised that fear gives them various powers, and people like power and being seen to "do things". And of course it can kill the elderly and other vulnerable people (just like the flu), so if you don't support all draconian measures to stop it then you must like people dying, obviously.
No one was thinking that when millions died of the flu every year, because, reasons...

My state NSW has single digit cases a day (and many zero days recently), yet it's still managed as if it's a crisis that will spiral out of control and infect everyone and kill X percent of those if it's not micro managed. This could go on for years. Open your borders and you are guaranteed a little spike again and the cycle repeats.

Most of the stuff was justified at the start because we knew very little about it, but as time goes on and we learn more, at some point we are just going to have to start treating this as just yet another seasonal flu type thing, otherwise we require that "new normal" society were no one shakes hands or hugs any more etc, and that's depressing. I don't see that happening in practice though, eventually people are just going to say "bugger it" and life will return to relative normality.
But yes, realistically it seems that everyone will eventually catch it whether they know it or not.
Quite some time back I tweeted about those "social distancing" floor stickers in shopping centres etc and pondered what we'll think in 20-30 years time if you find one in an old abandoned shopping mall and you think, "wow, remember back when social distancing was a thing!"

Of course, YMMV. Easy to say in a country that has had little impact from this of course.
I'm not sure about overseas, but here practically zero resources have been spent on protecting the vulnerable. All the effort seems to go into stopping Joe Average getting it. Seems arse backwards to me 

[DrG]

I thought we were still working under the assumption that everyone will catch it and we just want hospitals available for when people need them? If that's still the modus operandi then I don't see how new cases matter. We can have a million cases a day if they don't overwhelm the hospitals.

Hospitals in hot spots ARE being filled to capacity.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hospital-capacity-crosses-tipping-point-in-u-s-coronavirus-hot-spots-11585215006 https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/06/florida-doctor-covid-hospitals-now.html or just do a search for hospital capacity in hot spots.

I don't know who you mean by "we", but here is an alternative to your assumption "that everyone will catch it and we just want hospitals available for when people need them".

Lets test a whole lot of people and identify who has the virus and make sure that they are quarantined and hospitalized if necessary / possible. Let's trace all of their recent contacts and test them and do the same with the positives.

Let's practice reasonable NPI which includes social distancing and face coverings to minimize the infections.

Let's keep going like that until we have more effective treatments and an effective vaccine, knowing that doing so for a relatively short time means that an economic recovery will occur much quicker and failing to do so will just extend the misery and destruction.

That is what I thought 'we' wanted.

Of course, the 9000 new cases in Florida just today are more than 1000 the number of cases than Australia has ever seen over the entire course of the pandemic. Yet, seeing a few double digit outbreaks starts people there thinking about a second wave https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0626/1149750-australia-toilet-roll/.

Here, it just means that it is time to go to the beach. So, I guess it just all depends on the who the 'we' are.

[Nusa]

Unidentified pronouns such as "we" and "they" don't belong in serious subjects on international forums. It's absolutely guaranteed that a significant portion of the readers will not know which group you are referring to. Just say who you mean directly.

[PlainName]

My state NSW has single digit cases a day (and many zero days recently), yet it's still managed as if it's a crisis that will spiral out of control

You're beginning to sound like Trump when, with just 15 cases nationwide, he said it would miraculously disappear, not a problem, just a bit of flu.

As an engineer you should realise that this is a great example of delayed feedback. There is around 2 weeks between stuffing a beach with bodies and seeing an increase in cases. So, yes, to prevent it going out of control you do have to hit it hard early since if you react when it's bad it's going to end up MUCH worse than you thought. Our 60+K excess deaths in six months shows what can happen if you dither for a week or so before getting your act in gear.

New Zealand shows that if you don't fuck about being wishy-washy you can return to real normality pretty quickly.

[EEVblog]

My state NSW has single digit cases a day (and many zero days recently), yet it's still managed as if it's a crisis that will spiral out of control

You're beginning to sound like Trump when, with just 15 cases nationwide, he said it would miraculously disappear, not a problem, just a bit of flu.

Bugger off with your ridiculous comparison, they aren't even remotely comparable statements.

As an engineer you should realise that this is a great example of delayed feedback. There is around 2 weeks between stuffing a beach with bodies and seeing an increase in cases.

I'm well aware of that. We have had schools back fully for almost a month now, and gyms back for two weeks, plus a ton of other stuff open, people packing restaurants again for many weeks now. essentially zero new cases.
The great fear was schools, being the germ breeding ground that they are, but nothing has happened so far after that time, so seem to be saying something.
Based on the data we have now and the measures in place and general awareness (and fear), I can't really see any major wave up again here. But we'll no doubt be playing whack-a-mole for a long time. Although if we let 100,000 Chinese students back in, well...
Most of our new cases for the last month have been overseas travelers coming in, except for a recent spat in Victoria in the last few days.
If anyone is going to propose some 2nd wave doomsday scenario here based on the data we have now and the size and circumstances of our first wave, then they'd want to come up with a damn good hypothesis of how that's going to magically happen.

[EEVblog]

Our 60+K excess deaths in six months shows what can happen if you dither for a week or so before getting your act in gear.

If there is one thing this whole saga has shown it's that you can't and shouldn't compare countries. There seems to be a slew of parametric differences between countries, cultures, cities, and even possible physiological differences etc.
Again, we had a peak of 200 new cases a day here in NSW before it was knocked on the head very quickly and dropped away to bugger-all, and that's with our general she'll-be-right attitude here (e.g. hardly any masks, yobbo's still packing out beaches during the peak of it etc). If someone wants to propose it's going to much worse than that a 2nd time around then please present the hypothesis why and how that might happen.
This isn't some denial about it all, or wishful thinking, just based on the existing data here. YMMV greatly.