Crackpot gravity engine?

[ScottBLAM]

 I had an idea for an engine that uses magnetic fluid spinning to create centripetal force with a electromagnetic array like a electric motor but during it's spin the magnetic field moving the fluid would go into high frequency to oscillate the liquid to speed up the atoms and increase mass(E = mc2) on only one part of the centripetal force while leaving the rest unaffected to create thrust.

 This is crackpot right? I missed something in a physics class that says this can't work? If not cool I invented gravity drive and it didn't hurt to ask at all.

[IanB]

I had an idea for an engine that uses magnetic fluid spinning to create centripetal force with a electromagnetic array like a electric motor but during it's spin the magnetic field moving the fluid would go into high frequency to oscillate the liquid to speed up the atoms and increase mass(E = mc2) on only one part of the centripetal force while leaving the rest unaffected to create thrust.

That's a word salad. Can you write equations for that?

[ScottBLAM]

I don't think so. Maybe a illustration?

[MK14]

increase mass(E = mc2)

Surely you can't increase the mass. It is a fixed constant, once the engine has been constructed.

  If not cool I invented gravity drive and it didn't hurt to ask at all.

Rather than waste time asking here. Spend an hour, make it.
Fly round our solar system a few times. Make some cool closeup Youtube videos, of the sun, Mars and places. Then post it in this thread. We can go from there.

[Alex Eisenhut]

It is very theoretically sound and quite simple to build. Do you have access to a fluid with the density of a neutron star and can you accelerate it close to the speed of light in a torus?

That's all you need. Aisle 83 at the Home Depot usually stocks this.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283795449_General_relativistic_gravity_machine_utilizing_electromagnetic_field

Also maybe get an Arduino or Raspberry Pi for a pretty web interface.

Caution: keep out of reach of children.

[james_s]

If it seems like you can extract energy out of nothing, you're overlooking something. The trap that everyone falls into with this over-unity stuff is adding layers of complexity until they can't keep track of all the factors in their mind and manage to convince themselves that it will work. You can't extract any energy from gravity that you don't first put in by lifting a mass up into the air.

[MK14]

I missed something in a physics class that says this can't work?

Can you write equations for that?

I don't think so.

Found the problem 

[Brumby]

Yeah - it won't work too well.

Tried it on a half-scale turbo encabulator and found it interfered with the unilateral phase detractors which resulted in the spurving bearings being unable to maintain alignment with the panametric fam.  I don't need to tell you what the outcome of that would be....

[Circlotron]

increase mass(E = mc2)

Surely you can't increase the mass. It is a fixed constant, once the engine has been constructed.

Actually you can.
If you accelerate an object to whatever velocity necessary so that it has 9x10^16 Joules of kinetic energy then it will have gained 1kg. Your 1500kg car while at 100kph gains  0.0003123 milligrams.

[MK14]

increase mass(E = mc2)

Surely you can't increase the mass. It is a fixed constant, once the engine has been constructed.

Actually you can.
If you accelerate an object to whatever velocity necessary so that it has 9x10^16 Joules of kinetic energy then it will have gained 1kg. Your 1500kg car while at 100kph gains  0.0003123 milligrams.

Yes. But I didn't bother to put that in. Because, under most normal circumstances, we don't need to worry about such things. Einsteins laws are interesting, but not usually really needed, if we are talking about relatively low speeds. Compared to the speed of light.
There are going to be exceptions, such as I assume GPS systems, which probably need to take such things into account.

[T3sl4co1l]

You can't increase the rest mass without putting more stuff in, but you can increase the effective mass, yes.

For example, the mass of a capacitor becomes ever so slightly greater when charged.  How much?  So little, the natural diffusion of atoms (not just of air, but even seemingly inanimate ones) around the capacitor utterly dominates the change in mass -- that is, if you could measure the exact mass of molecules bound to the object-as-such, you would find the signal has orders of magnitude more noise.

It's worth noting that special relativity is an approximation -- there's good reason why it's always "inertial frame of reference".  An accelerated frame of reference is not relative, and all sorts of quirky things can happen.  Apparently, higher order terms can lead to inexplicably unbalanced acceleration or energy (force?).  But, as the OP suggests, these terms need relativistic velocities and accelerations to become significant.  (Higher order terms being what they are, they drop out very quickly indeed, at low, non-relativistic accelerations.)

So it's not a bad idea.  Perhaps a good idea, even.  It may be analogous to a heat engine, how compressing and expanding (and heating and cooling) a fluid allows power to flow and work to be done.  Well, suppose we had some means to compress and expand space itself.  Perhaps we could displace the space while it's compressed, and as a result end up moved further along without apparently having touched anything (Mach force).  Subject, of course, to analogous limitations -- thermodynamics won't let you go that easily.

Some have done experiments attempting to show just the subtlest hint of these higher-order terms; a relativistic elliptical whirly-go-round isn't exactly feasible, or constructible of even the strongest normal matter (electron-orbital bonds are a few eV per atom; that would need 100,000s, or 1,000,000,000s, of eV to be possible; hence the tease about neutronium).  These usually take the form of a coupled vibrating-capacitor device, so that the capacitor is accelerating the most when it also has the most charge.  The acceleration is provided by a piezo stack, which also stores energy; an inductor balances the electric circuit so that only losses need to be provided to the system.

So far, at best micronewtons have been detected, and that's using "detect" generously as this is the detection limit of a microbalance.  For forces this small, any and every possible interference must be accounted for -- forces as subtle as the emission of adsorbed gasses from one side of the apparatus more than another, greatly exceed the signal being looked for!

Relating to another somewhat fringe idea, it's expected that this mechanism would serve as the "exotic matter" of the Alcubierre warp drive.  Now we just need to find piezo disks big and strong enough to contain a small planet's worth of mass-energy...


Tim

[duak]

Yes indeedy, various aspects of relativity are demonstrated in GPS:
see http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

But there are more as the corrections themselves need to be corrected or reinterpretations, errors and omissions had to be dealt with:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5253894/

It's probably apocryphal that when GPS first went live, I remember reading that some strict Newtonians on the project didn't accept relativity and so the system had to be able to switch the corrections off.  Could you imagine that bit 0 of register 1905 enabled relativistic mode?

[MK14]

It's probably apocryphal that when GPS first went live, I remember reading that some strict Newtonians on the project didn't accept relativity and so the system had to be able to switch the corrections off.  Could you imagine that bit 0 of register 1905 enabled relativistic mode?

What, no flat Earth mode ?   

[MK14]

Yes indeedy, various aspects of relativity are demonstrated in GPS:
see http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

But there are more as the corrections themselves need to be corrected or reinterpretations, errors and omissions had to be dealt with:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5253894/

It's probably apocryphal that when GPS first went live, I remember reading that some strict Newtonians on the project didn't accept relativity and so the system had to be able to switch the corrections off.  Could you imagine that bit 0 of register 1905 enabled relativistic mode?

From reading your links, and following even deeper, with a link, via those pages. It makes for some interesting reading. thanks!

So, Einsteins laws of relativity (and stuff, such as errors because of the speed of the satellite, 14,000 KPH), means that there is a net timing error on the GPS, of 38 microseconds (per actual On surface of Earth, second). Which the atomic clocks are already calibrated to be the same rate of time, as on Earth.

So, without correction, and if you got your time, solely from a GPS satellite. The daily timing error rate would be:
38 x 3600 x 24 = Approx 3 seconds per day.
Which is worse than a typical LCD Quartz Watch/clock, which are usually a bit better than 1 second per day, timing drift error.

You learn something new every day 0.999962 (GPS satellite) days.

[jonovid]

can a liquid stay in orbit as a blanket satellite  not considering todays radius & gravity?
what if anything would be the liquids resistance to the atmosphere or gas surrounding a planet?
at what level of gravity and or planet radius is needed to keep a blanket of liquid in orbit around the same planet.
defining the orbit as a liquid thermosphere on top of a atmosphere of gas troposphere.
a layer of liquid with a layer of gas in between two layers of liquid of planets atmosphere.

so if I was making a planet, big hypothetical here!
and called for a firm ceiling between the waters and let it separate waters from the waters
made the ceiling and separated the waters below it from the waters above it  not side-by-side
two layers of liquid of planets atmosphere, separated by a gas. how would I do it?

[TimFox]

I remember a classic "unbalanced wheel" perpetual motion machine, relying on gravity, where the number "6" is repeated around the circumference of a disc with central axle.  As the disc rotates, the "6"s change to "9"s, thus keeping the wheel unbalanced with a net gravitational torque to keep it rotating.

[free_electron]

They invented that in the years 35314 (by then the earths orbit has changed and a year now spans multiple blocks of 356 days. hence 'years'). it was on a tuesday. forgot the month and day ..

How i know ? The conference on time travel always has interesting news from all over time. A must visit !

The conference is always announced in august and typically set somewhere january-february of the same year.
The issue is always scheduling enough free time in january/february so you can go by the time it is announced.

Coat please. It's the lead lined one with the asbestos gloves and tin hat. (add in my steempunk Covid-19 respirator.) I can;t wait to find out what they will throw at us last year...

[TimFox]

I missed that conference, since I was at the Einstein Summation Convention held at the Kronecker Delta.

[MK14]

I missed that conference, since I was at the Einstein Summation Convention held at the Kronecker Delta.

I was actually at that conference. When I ignored the rules and put a complex number, into the Kronecker Delta.
So, it is no longer 2077 anymore.

I'm apparently back in 2020, almost at the start of the 45 year Covid-19 virus outbreak.

[TimFox]

Don't be contravariant.

[MK14]

Don't be contravariant.

Now you warn me   

2020 - 2077 = Minus 57 years too late    (-57).