Author Topic: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?  (Read 11033 times)

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Offline TimFox

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #150 on: June 17, 2024, 05:38:33 pm »
In the case of a resistive dropper if it is overloaded it will just go open circuit, a lot of sets in-fact had droppers that had fuseable spring links. Almost any old TV tech., will tell you that replacement dropper resistors were the bread and butter of their living.

Transformers when overloaded can of course catch fire, particularly the ones fitted in veteran sets, where the windings were often potted in wax or bitumen

The resistive droppers did get rather hot though. If you had a TV stored or switched off for a while, then a layer of dust would accumulate on the dropper resistor (through the many vent holes in the case back needed to dissipate the heat). If you then switched on the TV, you would get a very characteristic burning smell coming out the back of the set as the resistor heated up. Ah, nostalgia.

Some tube AC-DC units included a dropper resistor as a (third) resistance wire in the two-prong power cord to spread the heat out.

Another common location for AC-DC transformerless units besides parts of the northeastern US was WW-II merchant marine vessels.
The E H Scott SLRM medium-wave and short-wave receiver had such a power connection.  https://people.ohio.edu/postr/bapix/SLRM.htm
It was famous because of extreme shielding to reduce local-oscillator leakage radiation (trackable by U-boats).
The input RF stage used a 6K7 pentode (with grid cap) as part of the extreme shielding, while the IF stage used the more normal 6SK7.
The tube heaters operated at 300 mA, with extra tubes compared with an "All-American Five" broadcast receiver.
Two 25L6 power tubes provided enough audio output to be used for shipboard music.
 

Offline paulca

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #151 on: June 17, 2024, 05:40:25 pm »
Lecture on HVDC interconnects in UK/Euro

https://youtu.be/JU3m-Ze6AHE
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #152 on: June 17, 2024, 05:43:09 pm »
Quote
enough that #4-0 is about as large as you want to go, and indeed you get into parallel wires (depending on code) or bus bars by then.
Thats about 105mm2 if im reading the tables correct,not that big , unless you haven't played  with many large installations.

Indeed, that's quite small. Conductors in the 3-ph supply of one of our buildings, for example, are 240mm2 4-core, with two supplies in parallel for redundancy purposes. These were fitted about 10 years ago when we completely gutted the building (back to the bare structure), and replaced the twin 270mm2 4-core previous supply (with a drop from 1250A fuses to 700A MCCBs for cable protection).

Biggest cable I've personally handled (stop it!) is 600mm2 singles.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #153 on: June 17, 2024, 06:17:25 pm »
Look at car audio, where the input is already 12VDC, yet the input stages have a good number of capacitors there, often over 1000uF per section of the primary side boost converter, and the main input, despite being provided by a 500CCA battery, and 0 gauge cables, has a input filter capacitor in the region of 1 Farad to provide decoupling.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #154 on: June 17, 2024, 07:24:47 pm »
Look at car audio, where the input is already 12VDC, yet the input stages have a good number of capacitors there, often over 1000uF per section of the primary side boost converter, and the main input, despite being provided by a 500CCA battery, and 0 gauge cables, has a input filter capacitor in the region of 1 Farad to provide decoupling.
If they only amplified >4kHz they wouldn't. With a high frequency load fluctuation you don't need much capacitance and slow start can take care of the rest.

Bridging low frequency ripples is where the electrolytic is hard to avoid, whether it be 50/60Hz mains or bass which would cause ripple voltage disturbing the battery and unregulated loads.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2024, 07:27:24 pm by Marco »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #155 on: June 17, 2024, 07:49:01 pm »
In a DC bus, you don't ignore bypass and filtering, it just defaults to PDN (power distribution network) analysis as the normal case.  And EMI filtering doesn't go away, it's as important as ever, I suppose it's even worse because you don't benefit from the FWB capacitance (though that doesn't help much anymore post-PFC days).

So now you need to know the wiring length to the unit, or at least a maximum specified length, and this manifests as an inductive source.

Filtering then simply needs to be adequate (low enough Fc and Zo) to keep supply ripple low enough not to mess with operation of the unit, and nearby/connected equipment, say under step load changes, and to respect EMI limits.

I suppose with converters everywhere, filtering would be pervasive, and conducted EMI might not be such a big deal. It still has to be dealt with at facility level, but lower frequencies won't be going very far into the neighborhood.  Maybe this isn't a very deep observation after all -- I haven't probed a pole transformer myself, but I would guess they roll off in the 10s of kHz tops?  Houses aren't much wavelength for 150kHz either, I suppose that'll underlie that existing threshold.

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Offline soldar

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #156 on: June 17, 2024, 08:08:29 pm »
Some tube AC-DC units included a dropper resistor as a (third) resistance wire in the two-prong power cord to spread the heat out.

I still keep one of those cords in the hope that some day it might be useful .... for something.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #157 on: June 17, 2024, 08:09:13 pm »
It would be nice if somebody could come up with the requirements for DC powered telecom equipment. These requirements will provide a good outline of what a DC grid means for the devices drawing power from it. Without going from requirements, it is just taking stabs in the dark.
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Offline Andy Chee

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #158 on: June 17, 2024, 08:22:26 pm »
It would be nice if somebody could come up with the requirements for DC powered telecom equipment. These requirements will provide a good outline of what a DC grid means for the devices drawing power from it. Without going from requirements, it is just taking stabs in the dark.
The telephone subscriber loop is relatively high impedance and has distance limits.

High impedance power source is generally  incompatible with a power grid for running appliances and motors.
 

Online IanB

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #159 on: June 17, 2024, 08:36:23 pm »
The POTS is surely obsolete today?

The UK is rapidly switching off the copper wire telephone service, much like analog TV was switched off. The aim is to completely remove all of that infrastructure.

Much the same seems to be happening here in California, where you have to jump through hoops to get new analog telephone service, and AT&T is trying hard to get existing customers to switch over to digital. All of the telephone sockets in my house are relics of a bygone age.

As for a power model, I don't think it fits. How is power going to be delivered over a mile of very thin copper wires at low voltage? The excessive cost of that infrastructure is surely one of the reasons they are trying to abandon it.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #160 on: June 17, 2024, 08:36:53 pm »
It would be nice if somebody could come up with the requirements for DC powered telecom equipment. These requirements will provide a good outline of what a DC grid means for the devices drawing power from it. Without going from requirements, it is just taking stabs in the dark.
The telephone subscriber loop is relatively high impedance and has distance limits.

High impedance power source is generally  incompatible with a power grid for running appliances and motors.
You misunderstood. Telecom equipment = 48VDC powered equipment used at telecom / network / phone exchange / data centers. Not the end user equipment. Depending on the location you may find DC power supplies capable of delivering hundreds of amps (typicall at 56V) to power many racks filled with equipment. I know there are requirements but I just don't know which ones and have no time to look for it. I'm not writing about end-user equipment connected to a POTS phone line.
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Online IanB

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #161 on: June 17, 2024, 08:40:00 pm »
You misunderstood. Telecom equipment = 48VDC powered equipment used at telecom / network / phone exchange / data centers. Not the end user equipment. Depending on the location you may find DC power supplies capable of delivering hundreds of amps (typicall at 56V) to power many racks filled with equipment. I know there are requirements but I just don't know which ones and have no time to look for it. I'm not writing about end-user equipment connected to a POTS phone line.

Right, but I don't think they want those racks of equipment in data centers either. Everything is now digital with VOIP. Only internet data centers are relevant. Telecom data centers are dead or dying. Are internet data centers powered with LV DC?
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #162 on: June 17, 2024, 08:46:19 pm »
Google tells me OpenCompute was trying to move to DC a few years ago, dunno how widespread it is, the big boys aren't that open. The connectors are available off the shelf at Mouser though, so it can't be entirely dead.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2024, 08:48:02 pm by Marco »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #163 on: June 17, 2024, 09:11:16 pm »
You misunderstood. Telecom equipment = 48VDC powered equipment used at telecom / network / phone exchange / data centers. Not the end user equipment. Depending on the location you may find DC power supplies capable of delivering hundreds of amps (typicall at 56V) to power many racks filled with equipment. I know there are requirements but I just don't know which ones and have no time to look for it. I'm not writing about end-user equipment connected to a POTS phone line.

Right, but I don't think they want those racks of equipment in data centers either. Everything is now digital with VOIP. Only internet data centers are relevant. Telecom data centers are dead or dying. Are internet data centers powered with LV DC?
It is not about what is new or old!  :palm: It is about bringing standards to the table so this discussion can continue in a meaningfull way instead of just guessing. Again, there are standards which deal with DC power distribution requirements. These are a good source to understand the difficulties and problems that come with DC power distribution because these are based on decades of lessons-learned and collected knowledge. Is that so hard to understand?
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #164 on: June 17, 2024, 09:19:02 pm »
What does a DC to DC converter for replacing a pole-pig transformer look like?  It has to step down say 2,400 volts to 240 volts with an output current of 200 amps.  A transformer to supply 10 homes costs $4,000 under normal conditions but $20,000 now because of a shortage.  Could you make that DC to DC converter for $400, or even $2000?
 

Offline Andy Chee

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #165 on: June 17, 2024, 09:28:57 pm »
It is not about what is new or old!  :palm: It is about bringing standards to the table so this discussion can continue in a meaningfull way instead of just guessing. Again, there are standards which deal with DC power distribution requirements. These are a good source to understand the difficulties and problems that come with DC power distribution because these are based on decades of lessons-learned and collected knowledge. Is that so hard to understand?
It’s hard to understand the relevance of standards used for DC distribution within a POTS telecommunications exchange, in the context of DC distribution for a theoretical LVDC mains power grid.

The two applications are completely different.
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #166 on: June 18, 2024, 12:20:39 am »
Some tube AC-DC units included a dropper resistor as a (third) resistance wire in the two-prong power cord to spread the heat out.

Carpet burners!

Never seen one, but they are legendary.

They were usually fine, the story goes, until owners tried to shorten them, or use them rolled up.



 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #167 on: June 18, 2024, 02:02:25 am »
This was a technical history study subject of mine, it wasn't to do with the TV sets themselves per se, it was a study on the effects of asymmetric loading of the power grid, but it did throw up some interesting historical development details on the TV sets themselves.

Not all the UK TV production was transformerless, there were notable exceptions. (Example: 1957 PYE PTV, which were based on a studio monitor, apparently excellent sets, it needed good isolation as it had a metal cabinet!)

Early, just pre and post 2nd world war CRT sets had transformers as it was the prevailing design choice at the time and often had mains derived CRT final anode HT... absolutely lethal.

Later solid state colour sets nearly all had some form of switching supplies/phase angle thyristor regulation or similar, often non isolating. Exceptions were a few quirky hybrid sets that were very power consumptive, notable was the 1960s  Philips G6 chassis, that in 22 and 26" screen varieties consumed 400W: they also used shunt stabilisation of the EHT which was a radiation hazard to any foolhardy engineers that ran them without the sweep/line stage screening box in place.

The late fifties to early seventies monochrome sets did mostly  use transformerless techniques and achieved the necessary dropping of power for the tube/valve heaters with series resistive droppers in combination with series diodes to limit dissipation.

A few sets even used lossless capacitive droppers for the heater chains.

A whole range of tubes/valves were produced in Europe specifically for use in these sets and were designated 'P' range by the European manufacturers, these had heaters that were  for use in  300mA series strings, had suitably increased heater cathode insulation,  and were characterised for the relatively low plate/anode voltages provided by the ½ wave mains rectification.

The reasons the system was adopted was purely cost, it being very much cheaper to make ceramic resistive droppers than transformers, they were no where near as expensive as transformers to produce, and factors lighter, though that was coincidental considering the weight of the glass CRT. Virtually none of these sets would run on DC mains, (diode droppers don't work on DC, the tube/valve heaters would be overrun  for starters).

I fail to understand why transformers were so expensive in the UK, with their then large Electronics industry.
The weight issue is a "red herring" as the power transformer for a normal 23" Australian TV set can be held in one hand.
OK, you know you are holding something, but it isn't a significant contributor to the overall weight of the set.
Quote


Not all of the sets sold in Aus were transformer PS types, notably European designed imports often weren't. I don't think there was ever any regulation introduced that they should be isolated supplies, it was just a sensible risk adversity on the part of Australian manufacturers, perhaps only of benefit to service techs.

Of course, in operation in customers homes, the extra safety of a transformer PS set was then arguably not applicable.

I was in the Electronics workforce from mid 1959, & although I never worked as a TV Serviceman on domestic BW TVs, saw enough of them to have a fairly wide experience of what circuitry was used, & as I said above, the only transformerless TVs I saw were the old Admiral portables.
I have no memory during that time of any "European designed" imports on the market.

The unique Australian TV channel structure would have  discouraged any European maker from selling sets in this country, at that time the UK were making 405 line sets which were totally non-compatible, & if they made a 625 line set would be more likely to try to sell it in Europe.

One exception was Ekco, who unsuccessfully linked up with Oz firm AEI to build & sell both TVs & AM Broadcasts Radios in the Australian market,during that brief foray adopting the local standard transformer-type architecture in both cases.

There were a few "private imports" which Techs took it upon themselves to modify, but it wasn't a viable proposition in most cases.

As to safety, transformer type TVs did not require the expensive & complex insulation measures needed with "hot chassis" sets, so were safer for both the user & Serviceman.

Quote

In the case of a resistive dropper if it is overloaded it will just go open circuit, a lot of sets in-fact had droppers that had fuseable spring links. Almost any old TV tech., will tell you that replacement dropper resistors were the bread and butter of their living.

Transformers when overloaded can of course catch fire, particularly the ones fitted in veteran sets, where the windings were often potted in wax or bitumen.
Wax or bitumen potting was not used in Australia, & about the worst you could expect from a failed transformer was a lot of smoke & some stink.
The HV secondaries were the usual culprits in a cooked transformer, rather than the primary.
Transformers commonly lasted decades.
Quote

My personal choice would perhaps be the transformer set being the safest overall but I don't think such a study was ever done, in service reliability being a completely separate matter entirely.

Regards,
X
 

Offline johansen

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #168 on: June 18, 2024, 02:23:27 am »
What does a DC to DC converter for replacing a pole-pig transformer look like?  It has to step down say 2,400 volts to 240 volts with an output current of 200 amps.  A transformer to supply 10 homes costs $4,000 under normal conditions but $20,000 now because of a shortage.  Could you make that DC to DC converter for $400, or even $2000?

7200 volts is more typical these days. 4160 may still be around.

I have seen very, very old 40 gallon trash can sized 2400:240 transformers in older industrial parts of seattle supplied by 7200:2400v pole mounted 10 gallon bucket sized transformers.

At 99% efficiency, it takes a long time to justify replacing 80 year old hardware with 99.5% efficient new.

Price out a 100hp VFD with a 40 year warrantee lol. And it will not support 2 houses, it has 10 times the parasitic load of a 20kw transformer and it costs a lot more.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 02:30:26 am by johansen »
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #169 on: June 18, 2024, 03:09:59 am »
What would the optimum frequency be for the transformers used in power distribution and transmission? I would expect it to go down as the voltage and power level increases since the transformer needs to be a minimum size for dielectric strength and heat dissipation. Is 50Hz or 60Hz really the optimum or would some other frequency make more sense?
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #170 on: June 18, 2024, 04:49:58 am »
I forget what the tradeoff was between systems as low as 16.7Hz, 25Hz, and up to... did they do 80, 100Hz at some point? I forget.

Too high frequency also makes motors ponderously fast, and 1500-3600 RPM for 4 and 2 pole motors at 50-60Hz seems pretty practical.  Higher frequency might require more poles, which reduce the torque capacity or aspect ratio or other things about the motor.

Long distance transmission also worsens at high frequencies.  It's a multi-dimensional problem, and not one that can be solved optimally for any given purpose.  Transformers are only a small part of it, but also motors (especially in the days long before VFDs), transmission, safety (deionization of air is pretty fast though, so we're not too concerned about that, but it matters in the kHz or MHz, or for DC), etc.  Changing frequencies is highly nontrivial (including changing DC voltage, which requires some manner of AC step) so you pick a compromise and that's about it.

I don't know what exactly goes for "optimal" at these frequencies; I imagine it's gone up over time, particularly with the availability of nanocrystalline material nowadays (not that it's particularly affordable, but if you only need to buy it once a century--?).

Note that (silicon steel) sheet thickness is an open variable, give or take the (minor?) added expense of rolling it thinner, more anneal steps, and more time in assembly, which makes transformers up to a few 100 Hz quite practical (e.g. mil/aerospace widely uses 400Hz), and some kHz with reduced Bmax or efficiency, or specialty materials (strip permalloy, nanocrystalline), or of course ferrite.

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Offline Xena E

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #171 on: June 18, 2024, 06:13:44 am »
This was a technical history study subject of mine, it wasn't to do with the TV sets themselves per se, it was a study on the effects of asymmetric loading of the power grid, but it did throw up some interesting historical development details on the TV sets themselves.

Not all the UK TV production was transformerless, there were notable exceptions. (Example: 1957 PYE PTV, which were based on a studio monitor, apparently excellent sets, it needed good isolation as it had a metal cabinet!)

Early, just pre and post 2nd world war CRT sets had transformers as it was the prevailing design choice at the time and often had mains derived CRT final anode HT... absolutely lethal.

Later solid state colour sets nearly all had some form of switching supplies/phase angle thyristor regulation or similar, often non isolating. Exceptions were a few quirky hybrid sets that were very power consumptive, notable was the 1960s  Philips G6 chassis, that in 22 and 26" screen varieties consumed 400W: they also used shunt stabilisation of the EHT which was a radiation hazard to any foolhardy engineers that ran them without the sweep/line stage screening box in place.

The late fifties to early seventies monochrome sets did mostly  use transformerless techniques and achieved the necessary dropping of power for the tube/valve heaters with series resistive droppers in combination with series diodes to limit dissipation.

A few sets even used lossless capacitive droppers for the heater chains.

A whole range of tubes/valves were produced in Europe specifically for use in these sets and were designated 'P' range by the European manufacturers, these had heaters that were  for use in  300mA series strings, had suitably increased heater cathode insulation,  and were characterised for the relatively low plate/anode voltages provided by the ½ wave mains rectification.

The reasons the system was adopted was purely cost, it being very much cheaper to make ceramic resistive droppers than transformers, they were no where near as expensive as transformers to produce, and factors lighter, though that was coincidental considering the weight of the glass CRT. Virtually none of these sets would run on DC mains, (diode droppers don't work on DC, the tube/valve heaters would be overrun  for starters).

I fail to understand why transformers were so expensive in the UK, with their then large Electronics industry.
The weight issue is a "red herring" as the power transformer for a normal 23" Australian TV set can be held in one hand.
OK, you know you are holding something, but it isn't a significant contributor to the overall weight of the set.
Quote


Not all of the sets sold in Aus were transformer PS types, notably European designed imports often weren't. I don't think there was ever any regulation introduced that they should be isolated supplies, it was just a sensible risk adversity on the part of Australian manufacturers, perhaps only of benefit to service techs.

Of course, in operation in customers homes, the extra safety of a transformer PS set was then arguably not applicable.

I was in the Electronics workforce from mid 1959, & although I never worked as a TV Serviceman on domestic BW TVs, saw enough of them to have a fairly wide experience of what circuitry was used, & as I said above, the only transformerless TVs I saw were the old Admiral portables.
I have no memory during that time of any "European designed" imports on the market.

The unique Australian TV channel structure would have  discouraged any European maker from selling sets in this country, at that time the UK were making 405 line sets which were totally non-compatible, & if they made a 625 line set would be more likely to try to sell it in Europe.

One exception was Ekco, who unsuccessfully linked up with Oz firm AEI to build & sell both TVs & AM Broadcasts Radios in the Australian market,during that brief foray adopting the local standard transformer-type architecture in both cases.

There were a few "private imports" which Techs took it upon themselves to modify, but it wasn't a viable proposition in most cases.

As to safety, transformer type TVs did not require the expensive & complex insulation measures needed with "hot chassis" sets, so were safer for both the user & Serviceman.

Quote

In the case of a resistive dropper if it is overloaded it will just go open circuit, a lot of sets in-fact had droppers that had fuseable spring links. Almost any old TV tech., will tell you that replacement dropper resistors were the bread and butter of their living.

Transformers when overloaded can of course catch fire, particularly the ones fitted in veteran sets, where the windings were often potted in wax or bitumen.
Wax or bitumen potting was not used in Australia, & about the worst you could expect from a failed transformer was a lot of smoke & some stink.
The HV secondaries were the usual culprits in a cooked transformer, rather than the primary.
Transformers commonly lasted decades.
Quote

My personal choice would perhaps be the transformer set being the safest overall but I don't think such a study was ever done, in service reliability being a completely separate matter entirely.

Regards,
X

Thank you for your "corrections".

I'm not obviously as old as yourself and don't know the exact form of the Australian market at the time we are talking about. Also the comments were not directly specific to Australian TV production and I haven't been able to find evidence of legislation in Australia that ever suggested there was a ban on AC/DC equipment.

The evidence is that European manufacturers decided that the saving of a few coins were worth the exclusion of the transformer in these designs, over and above any perceived safety considerations.

Also I didnt say that there were any pitch, or, wax impregnated transformers made in Australia, but these did exist in other areas of the world markets, and I'm doubtful that it was not the case in Australian manufacturers output, synthetic insulation is a relatively recent introduction worldwide, early 1950's onwards perhaps. Naturally occurring lacquers rubber, beeswax and pitch were the only material available historically.

Again I'm sorry for any offence caused, it was only a commentary on the techniques used based on evidence of historical designs, not a slight on the choices of Australian manufacturing materials or practices.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #172 on: June 18, 2024, 10:35:57 am »
It is not about what is new or old!  :palm: It is about bringing standards to the table so this discussion can continue in a meaningfull way instead of just guessing. Again, there are standards which deal with DC power distribution requirements. These are a good source to understand the difficulties and problems that come with DC power distribution because these are based on decades of lessons-learned and collected knowledge. Is that so hard to understand?
It’s hard to understand the relevance of standards used for DC distribution within a POTS telecommunications exchange, in the context of DC distribution for a theoretical LVDC mains power grid.

The two applications are completely different.
Telecom is way more than POTS! Even when telephone systems where becoming digital, the equipment was still powered predominantly from 48VDC because that was already available and reliable. From there 48VDC power supplies got upgraded to mains powered units behind a UPS. Bottom line: the use of 48V DC distribution goes far beyond just powering POTS lines and thus the requirements / regulations offer a very good insight into the problems you'll have when using DC distribution. There is no need to re-invent the wheel.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #173 on: June 18, 2024, 11:01:41 am »

Thank you for your "corrections".

I'm not obviously as old as yourself and don't know the exact form of the Australian market at the time we are talking about. Also the comments were not directly specific to Australian TV production and I haven't been able to find evidence of legislation in Australia that ever suggested there was a ban on AC/DC equipment.

The evidence is that European manufacturers decided that the saving of a few coins were worth the exclusion of the transformer in these designs, over and above any perceived safety considerations.

Also I didnt say that there were any pitch, or, wax impregnated transformers made in Australia, but these did exist in other areas of the world markets, and I'm doubtful that it was not the case in Australian manufacturers output, synthetic insulation is a relatively recent introduction worldwide, early 1950's onwards perhaps. Naturally occurring lacquers rubber, beeswax and pitch were the only material available historically.

Again I'm sorry for any offence caused, it was only a commentary on the techniques used based on evidence of historical designs, not a slight on the choices of Australian manufacturing materials or practices.

No offence, but some of the material purporting to be historically correct needs to be taken with "a grain of salt".

Lacquers were pretty much the universal choice for power transformers, at least from the 1940s on, initially natural, but later artificial.
I have worked on TV broadcasting equipment from Marconi, made in the 1950s, & there was nary a sign of beeswax, rubber, or pitch in any of their power transformers.

The 1930s radios that I have seen also used lacquer insulated power transformers, not much different to their 1950s successors,but it is possible  there were others that did not survive.

The only place I have seen beeswax is in inductors operating at much lower power levels & often higher frequencies.
 

Offline richard.cs

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #174 on: June 18, 2024, 11:06:33 am »
I forget what the tradeoff was between systems as low as 16.7Hz, 25Hz, and up to... did they do 80, 100Hz at some point? I forget.

Too high frequency also makes motors ponderously fast, and 1500-3600 RPM for 4 and 2 pole motors at 50-60Hz seems pretty practical.  Higher frequency might require more poles, which reduce the torque capacity or aspect ratio or other things about the motor.
The low frequency systems were mainly for running large universal motors - AC so you could use transformers, but low frequency so that winding inductance didn't limit motor power, and as easily controlled as a DC motor in the pre-electronic era. Used for things like railways and mines, with some still in existence. The high frequency ones were for lighting, and kept the transformer sizes small and the lamp flicker low, and 50/60 Hz was a compromise between the two.

Lighting in places that used very low frequencies was often transformed down to just a few volts so lamps with short, thick filaments could be used to reduce flicker.
 
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