Author Topic: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars  (Read 62887 times)

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Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #325 on: August 02, 2018, 02:46:37 pm »
It's game over for all the space dreams.
Forever? As in all eternity? Even the dreams?

Yes. Unless you can find new elements or new fundamental forces, engineering has strict limits. But dreams are free.

Comparing the progress of computers which deal in massless information with progress in the material world is stupid.

 

Offline Eka

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #326 on: August 02, 2018, 03:29:20 pm »
Dave's right about the manufacturing chain, any given widget you can think of is likely made of parts that came from dozens of factories, each of those parts made of materials that came from numerous other factories. Each of these factories is made of materials from dozens of other suppliers, as are all the tools used to build the factories and machinery.
Yeah, you don't just need the machinery and tools to make the new spare parts, you need the machinery and tools to make the machinery and tools that makes the spare parts, (and so on). And I'm no expert in chemistry but I reckon you have less raw materials to work with on mars than you have here on earth as well. It's not like you can go outside and chop down a tree and make a fire. Maybe you can extract the elements and synthesise stuff you need but it would require whopping amounts of energy and effort.
I've been thinking how 3D printing is changing the supply chain, and advances in 3D printing. Many parts of the past now get printed as one part. You need the designs, assembly instructions, and the printer-mills and you can make many parts from a few different relatively simple raw materials. A combination of 3D printer, and 5 axis mill could make a huge variety of parts. Then the assembly bots can take the parts right from the printer-mill and assemble whatever as they come off the printer-mills.

I'm now toying with making a 3D printer-mill that can use powders of various types and fuse them together, and also mill the surfaces to shape as it makes the part. The goal is a couple micron resolution in glass, ceramics and metals being done on the same part. I wish I had the $$$$$ for the laser fusing heads. I figure I need 40 to 80 Watts minimum due to the fusing temperatures and the speed of fusing needed for some materials. Plus I may need a couple different wavelengths. There is a lot that needs to go into it, but that should all be able to be handled. Yes, I'm cognizant of the differing rates of expansion and contraction of various materials I'm considering using. Hence the need for handling many different materials. The atmosphere around the material being fused can also be very critical for success. At first I'll be trying hard vacuum to see if it works. If it does work for most materials, then great. Yes, I know I'll vaporize part of the materials I'm fusing. That's life when you make compromises. BTW, I want this for making art. Imagine embedding diodes, resistores, and transistors in the middle of a chunk of glass. How about in the middle of the frame of a robot?
 

Offline rdl

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #327 on: August 02, 2018, 07:20:56 pm »
I think he's just here to annoy people. The only arguments in support of his position seem to be "far" and "hard", neither of which are really valid. If there was an actual need for a colony on Mars, far and hard wouldn't stand a chance. Since a colony is not really needed right now, I wouldn't expect one for a hundred years or so. As far as technology and engineering capability goes, it could have been done years ago. Politics and economics are the main limiting factors.
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #328 on: August 02, 2018, 08:19:35 pm »
I think he's just here to annoy people. The only arguments in support of his position seem to be "far" and "hard", neither of which are really valid. If there was an actual need for a colony on Mars, far and hard wouldn't stand a chance. Since a colony is not really needed right now, I wouldn't expect one for a hundred years or so. As far as technology and engineering capability goes, it could have been done years ago. Politics and economics are the main limiting factors.

????

The same politics that got you to the Moon in the first place???  :-// (PS: Socialism got you there too, BTW.)

Do you really think these asinine, sarcasm-soaked shitposts are worth your time?

About as much as asinine, baseless posts about how easy Mars colonies will be, and that "far" really doesn't mean anything!!  :-DD
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #329 on: August 02, 2018, 08:55:56 pm »
I would say politics as demonstrated on this thread.  There are four groups of people here.  The two fringe groups are those that think it is trivially easy or impossibly hard.  The other two groups agree that it is hard, but disagree on the on degree of difficulty and value.  The politics is these two groups fully defining their values and science and jockeying for support.
 
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Offline Eka

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #330 on: August 02, 2018, 11:33:42 pm »
Politics will only play a minor role. It's the money and initiative of private individuals and corporations that will get the ball rolling.
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #331 on: August 03, 2018, 03:30:04 pm »
Politics will only play a minor role. It's the money and initiative of private individuals and corporations that will get the ball rolling.

Oh for sure, just like it did in the heyday of the Space age, right? Remember all those brave entrepreneurs and private individuals preparing their trips to the Moon in 1961?

Oh, yeah, right, never happened.

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9705/25/japan.space/

Oops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTRAG

Umm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_One

Ahhh....

The kind of personality that is attracted to these lunatic Russian Cosmism-based fantasies is not the kind of person that will become very rich, or have many practical skills.

Yes, politics will only play a minor role. A minor role like WWII pushing along the V2, the Cold War pushing along ICBMs, , politics pushing along the Space Penis Size Contest.

You know, minor stuff like that. The really big stuff will come from private people in their garages, preparing bigger posters of Mars colonies...  :-DD

Where does this blind enthusiasm for nonsense come from? What happened to living on the ocean floor? What happened to extracting minerals from sea water? Before proselytizing about egg baskets and galaxy-wide colonization, try impressing me with some smaller scale stuff. Show me you can walk before you claim to (easily) outrun Usain Bolt...

OK, at best, maybe, perhaps, some very rich people will be able to go on suborbital flights and see a bit more than what people used to see in the Concorde (so why doesn't the Concorde fly anymore?). But then, going on a Vomit Comet is more easily done, why aren't there private Vomit Comet rides, and if there are, why haven't you been on one?
 

Offline kizmit99

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #332 on: August 03, 2018, 04:00:07 pm »
why aren't there private Vomit Comet rides

There are: https://www.gozerog.com/

, and if there are, why haven't you been on one?

Because I get motion-sick on the ground (and water) and have thus-far been able to convince my wife there are better ways to spend the $5K/person fee...
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #333 on: August 03, 2018, 05:03:18 pm »
There are: https://www.gozerog.com/

Thanks! It looks like fun, but this was possible already 50 years ago and it doesn't indicate that we'll colonize the Galaxy in Holy Humanity Seed Ships...

I'm just genuinely curious about this quasi-religious fervor I see over and over whenever space is mentioned around programmers and to a lesser extent engineers. I find it fascinating, it says a lot about us as creatures. The same people are also usually staunchly against life extension because it goes against nature, but at the same time they are drawing up antimatter powered warp drives to enable the Holy Expansion of the Human Species among the Universe.

I suppose they'll paint SPQR on the side of their ships as they land on alien planets and crush alien resistance...
 

Offline Eka

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #334 on: August 03, 2018, 08:16:19 pm »
You know, minor stuff like that. The really big stuff will come from private people in their garages, preparing bigger posters of Mars colonies...  :-DD
Just a view inside one of Elon Musk's "garages".
https://twitter.com/AscentAerospace/status/983382489035980800/photo/1
VIews of the outside here:
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-bfr-factory-rocket-tooling-site-activity/
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #335 on: August 03, 2018, 08:23:52 pm »
You know, minor stuff like that. The really big stuff will come from private people in their garages, preparing bigger posters of Mars colonies...  :-DD
Just a view inside one of Elon Musk's "garages".
https://twitter.com/AscentAerospace/status/983382489035980800/photo/1
VIews of the outside here:
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-bfr-factory-rocket-tooling-site-activity/

NASA's VAB is so large it has its own weather system. It is over 50 years old. I note the absence of Mars colonies.

Try again.

 

Offline Eka

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #336 on: August 04, 2018, 02:59:31 am »
You know, minor stuff like that. The really big stuff will come from private people in their garages, preparing bigger posters of Mars colonies...  :-DD
Just a view inside one of Elon Musk's "garages".
https://twitter.com/AscentAerospace/status/983382489035980800/photo/1
VIews of the outside here:
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-bfr-factory-rocket-tooling-site-activity/

NASA's VAB is so large it has its own weather system. It is over 50 years old. I note the absence of Mars colonies.

Try again.
Even NASA considers vertical assembly to have been a mistake. The VAB limits how tall of a rocket they can make, assembly work platforms are costly and unique to the rocket, and the vehicle to move it to the launch pad is extremely expensive. For horizontal assembly guys can work from generic cherry pickers and lift platforms. Also moving the assembled rocket can be done with standard heavy load carriages.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #337 on: August 04, 2018, 03:29:38 am »
Also sending spare parts to Mars is expensive, so as soon as the raw materials are available, spare parts will be made on Mars.

Because it's that easy, right?
Sorry, but :-DD
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #338 on: August 04, 2018, 08:42:58 am »
To be fair, when I read how people propose to create their colony Mars, the ideas are basically science fiction. E.g. a magic box (or a building) that converts raw materials into finished products, that's basically the Star Trek replicator. The thing is, if such a device could be created, it would also revolutionize manufacturing on Earth. And since making things on Earth is 10,000 cheaper than doing it on Mars, it would probably still be more economic to make it on Earth then ship it to Mars.

Terraforming of Mars is simply not going to happen, so we can just forget that.

However, you don't need to go to Mars to prove a replicator is possible, just build it on Earth. You can simulate the conditions somewhat by evacuating the building, and spraying it full of abrasive dust. You could probably also simulate the intense UV radiation, but not the lower gravity.

Even the simplest object on Earth, e.g. a washer, has a remarkably complex chain of manufacturing from raw materials. And then add the fact you don't even get oxygen and water for free on Mars, you have to make it, the scale of the problem becomes vast. Any technologies would need to be researched and prototyped on Earth. Sending up a bunch of engineers and a 3d printer and hoping they will kickstart the Martian economy will quickly result in a bunch of dead engineers.
Bob
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Offline apis

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #339 on: August 04, 2018, 05:13:02 pm »
Dave's right about the manufacturing chain, any given widget you can think of is likely made of parts that came from dozens of factories, each of those parts made of materials that came from numerous other factories. Each of these factories is made of materials from dozens of other suppliers, as are all the tools used to build the factories and machinery.
Yeah, you don't just need the machinery and tools to make the new spare parts, you need the machinery and tools to make the machinery and tools that makes the spare parts, (and so on). And I'm no expert in chemistry but I reckon you have less raw materials to work with on mars than you have here on earth as well. It's not like you can go outside and chop down a tree and make a fire. Maybe you can extract the elements and synthesise stuff you need but it would require whopping amounts of energy and effort.
I've been thinking how 3D printing is changing the supply chain, and advances in 3D printing. Many parts of the past now get printed as one part. You need the designs, assembly instructions, and the printer-mills and you can make many parts from a few different relatively simple raw materials. A combination of 3D printer, and 5 axis mill could make a huge variety of parts. Then the assembly bots can take the parts right from the printer-mill and assemble whatever as they come off the printer-mills.

I'm now toying with making a 3D printer-mill that can use powders of various types and fuse them together, and also mill the surfaces to shape as it makes the part. The goal is a couple micron resolution in glass, ceramics and metals being done on the same part. I wish I had the
$ for the laser fusing heads. I figure I need 40 to 80 Watts minimum due to the fusing temperatures and the speed of fusing needed for some materials. Plus I may need a couple different wavelengths. There is a lot that needs to go into it, but that should all be able to be handled. Yes, I'm cognizant of the differing rates of expansion and contraction of various materials I'm considering using. Hence the need for handling many different materials. The atmosphere around the material being fused can also be very critical for success. At first I'll be trying hard vacuum to see if it works. If it does work for most materials, then great. Yes, I know I'll vaporize part of the materials I'm fusing. That's life when you make compromises. BTW, I want this for making art. Imagine embedding diodes, resistores, and transistors in the middle of a chunk of glass. How about in the middle of the frame of a robot?
Interesting idea, by integrating a mill you could get much better surface finishes and dimensional accuracy. Some metal 3D printers use electron beams instead of lasers (in vacuum).

3D printers are nice, but they are just one of many tools that would be needed. A 3D printer can't print a battery, but maybe it can make some subset of the parts of the machines that makes the batteries, etc.

I Imagine that to get a self sustaining colony started you would have to first figure out which materials you have available on site, and what it would cost to mine and refine them. Then how to construct the necessary life support machinery/structures out of those materials. Then figure out a self replicating tool chain to be able to get from Mars rock to the minimum set of machinery you need (hydroponics units, air filtration, medical equipment etc) using only those materials in a economically realistic way.

It's probably theoretically possible but it would be a massive undertaking just doing the all the research and development to figure out what you would need.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #340 on: August 04, 2018, 05:39:56 pm »
Politics will only play a minor role. It's the money and initiative of private individuals and corporations that will get the ball rolling.
It was tax money that put people on the moon. A corporation is essentially a machine programmed to make profit, and if you can't make profit out of the Mars colony a corporation can't do it. I doubt there are any private individuals rich enough or interested enough to set up a colony on Mars (including Elon Musk), and as a potential Mars coloniser would you be willing to trust that a private individual would continue to support your colony for the centuries it would take just to get things started?

Someone mentioned the Biosphere 2 experiment previously. That was trivial experiment in comparison but turned out to not work as intended at all. It's a shame that no one made a biosphere 3 and so on until they could get something that works though. But that also shows there isn't anyone willing to pay for even the most basic research needed to get started. How would you convince people they should care about about a colony on Mars if they are never going to see it or benefit from it. Heck, seven percent of the US population believes the earth is flat! If the majority of people here on earth can think of something else than eating, sleeping and reproducing for a while they spend the time figuring out how to steal each others resources and fighting over who's imaginary friend is better. We know how to make safe and super efficient nuclear reactors but for some reason everyone decided to develop and build the models that provide a-bomb material as a byproduct instead, and for the most part we still mainly (90%) use coal/oil/gas to power everything here on earth anyway. Good luck convincing people they should spend the necessary money and resources on colonising Mars just because nerds think it would be cool (and maybe even beneficial for humanity long term).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 06:07:57 pm by apis »
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #341 on: August 05, 2018, 12:13:37 am »
.... A 3D printer can't print a battery, ...

I wouldn't be so positive about that. Researchers are having a lot of success in that area.
 

Offline Eka

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #342 on: August 05, 2018, 12:47:02 am »
Some of us do understand the complexities of the supply chain. I've also redesigned products to simplify manufacturing steps, and also for automated manufacture.

Lately I've been working on how to use simple commonly available bulk raw materials in 3D printing of precision parts. From NASA research reports, one of the printing methods I've been exploring should be able to use raw ground up Martian regolith to make strong 3D body structures out of. The minimum strength would be similar to low grade glass, with the likely strength being closer to volcanic glass. This is with only grinding the regolith into fine enough particles, then fusing them together with a laser. Yes, that simple. Additional steps can make it stronger, and smooth the surfaces a lot.

If it is possible to find the components to make a binder, then fiberglass structures can be made.

If components for a high temperature frothing agent can be found, then aerogels can be made from ground up and melted regolith. Aerogels are very good insulators, and likely are structurally strong when used as the core of a composite. A glass, aerogel, glass layered wall would be a good protection against Mar's cold temperatures and sand storms.

People have been doing actual experiments on how to do the engineering to colonize both the Moon and Mars for decades. Now with the data coming back from the rovers, we can refine our methods for first trials. A lot of research has already been done. My 3D printer work is all based on materials research done by NASA on mars regolith simulant, and moon regolith simulant. I need a more powerful diode pumped laser capable of continuous operation, and controlled pulse output.

Politics will only play a minor role. It's the money and initiative of private individuals and corporations that will get the ball rolling.
It was tax money that put people on the moon. A corporation is essentially a machine programmed to make profit, and if you can't make profit out of the Mars colony a corporation can't do it. I doubt there are any private individuals rich enough or interested enough to set up a colony on Mars (including Elon Musk), and as a potential Mars coloniser would you be willing to trust that a private individual would continue to support your colony for the centuries it would take just to get things started?
I expect SpaceX will be the only transportation supplier for at most two decades. Others will come in when there is money to be made.

Someone mentioned the Biosphere 2 experiment previously. That was trivial experiment in comparison but turned out to not work as intended at all. It's a shame that no one made a biosphere 3 and so on until they could get something that works though. But that also shows there isn't anyone willing to pay for even the most basic research needed to get started. How would you convince people they should care about about a colony on Mars if they are never going to see it or benefit from it. Heck, seven percent of the US population believes the earth is flat! If the majority of people here on earth can think of something else than eating, sleeping and reproducing for a while they spend the time figuring out how to steal each others resources and fighting over who's imaginary friend is better. We know how to make safe and super efficient nuclear reactors but for some reason everyone decided to develop and build the models that provide a-bomb material as a byproduct instead, and for the most part we still mainly (90%) use coal/oil/gas to power everything here on earth anyway. Good luck convincing people they should spend the necessary money and resources on colonising Mars just because nerds think it would be cool (and maybe even beneficial for humanity long term).
Biosphere 3 still had some fundamental flaws the designers weren't addressing. Hence no more funding. Neither Biosphere 1, nor Biosphere 2 were properly controlled experiments.

I expect biospheres in space will be built up from simple systems. They'll only grow plants that are known to grow under simple hydroponic situations, and they will grow all them from carefully washed and treated seeds. No introducing plants with unknown colonies of bacteria and fungus also growing on them and their roots like the Biosphere project did. Once they have robust well understood hydroponic biospheres operating, they will introduce food production fish that graze on aquatic plants, and algae. Their diets will be supplemented with the remains of the hydroponic plants that humans can't eat. Carnivorous fish will be fed the non human edible remains of the grazing fish. Don't expect to see land animals. Fish are much more efficient for pound of gain. They likely will keep the hydroponic and aquaculture biospheres separated, and all bio matter going from one to the other will be thoroughly cooked to kill any bacteria, fungus, mold, etc. Heck, they may UV irradiate the air going into and out of the biospheres to better control possible contamination. Tele-operated robots, and robots may be the only ones that tend them.

Not everybody thought going to America was a good idea. It was all paid for out of investors and people's pockets. As for readiness, some will be, and some won't. That is life. Same thing happened with ships setting sail for the Americas, settlers settling North America, settlers setting the American west, and prospectors following the gold rushes. I expect once Musk has his Mars base set up, there will be a few research institutions that set up Mars research stations. I wish I had the money to setup the first general store on Mars. ;)
 

Offline apis

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #343 on: August 05, 2018, 02:55:46 pm »
From NASA research reports, one of the printing methods I've been exploring should be able to use raw ground up Martian regolith to make strong 3D body structures out of. The minimum strength would be similar to low grade glass, with the likely strength being closer to volcanic glass.
That's great, maybe they can print a nice vase. Still doesn't make the batteries or the CO2 scrubbers or the mining machinery, or the water harvesting, oxygen generators, hydroponics pumps, MRI and other medical equipment, electronics, clothing, etc, needed to live on mars. At best it can be used to print some parts. You just can't make heavy mining equipment out of low grade glass no matter how good your 3D printer is. How do you plan on printing the solar cells and/or nuclear reactors that will power your 3D printer? How will you construct the equipment needed to make IC's?

A 3D printer can be useful but it is just another tool, just like a cnc mill or a lathe, it's not self replicating and it certainly isn't a star trek replicator.

If it is possible to find the components to make a binder, then fiberglass structures can be made.

If components for a high temperature frothing agent can be found, then aerogels can be made from ground up and melted regolith. Aerogels are very good insulators, and likely are structurally strong when used as the core of a composite. A glass, aerogel, glass layered wall would be a good protection against Mar's cold temperatures and sand storms.
if, if, if...

Politics will only play a minor role. It's the money and initiative of private individuals and corporations that will get the ball rolling.
It was tax money that put people on the moon. A corporation is essentially a machine programmed to make profit, and if you can't make profit out of the Mars colony a corporation can't do it. I doubt there are any private individuals rich enough or interested enough to set up a colony on Mars (including Elon Musk), and as a potential Mars coloniser would you be willing to trust that a private individual would continue to support your colony for the centuries it would take just to get things started?
I expect SpaceX will be the only transportation supplier for at most two decades. Others will come in when there is money to be made.
SpaceX is sending satellites into orbit because that is something people are willing to pay for, i.e. it is profitable. NASA will no doubt use SpaceX to send things into space, but it is still NASA who is paying for it (while SpaceX is making a profit).
Who is going to pay for sending material to a mars colony? The only ones making any progress at all wrt Mars seems to be NASA, and that is all tax funded.

Someone mentioned the Biosphere 2 experiment previously. That was trivial experiment in comparison but turned out to not work as intended at all. It's a shame that no one made a biosphere 3 and so on until they could get something that works though. But that also shows there isn't anyone willing to pay for even the most basic research needed to get started. How would you convince people they should care about about a colony on Mars if they are never going to see it or benefit from it. Heck, seven percent of the US population believes the earth is flat! If the majority of people here on earth can think of something else than eating, sleeping and reproducing for a while they spend the time figuring out how to steal each others resources and fighting over who's imaginary friend is better. We know how to make safe and super efficient nuclear reactors but for some reason everyone decided to develop and build the models that provide a-bomb material as a byproduct instead, and for the most part we still mainly (90%) use coal/oil/gas to power everything here on earth anyway. Good luck convincing people they should spend the necessary money and resources on colonising Mars just because nerds think it would be cool (and maybe even beneficial for humanity long term).
Biosphere 3 still had some fundamental flaws the designers weren't addressing. Hence no more funding. Neither Biosphere 1, nor Biosphere 2 were properly controlled experiments.
Biosphere 1 is earth, biosphere 2 failed (but still provided some interesting data on human psychology and failure modes I suppose), there were never a biosphere 3.

Biosphere 2 was privately funded, cost about US$375 million (inflation adjusted). But they couldn't keep it running long enough to finish even a second experiment: "In June 1994, during the middle of the second experiment, the managing company, Space Biosphere Ventures, was dissolved, and the facility was left in limbo." (I just noticed that the "acting director" during the second experiment was Steve Bannon :-DD)

So we haven't even built a working closed biosphere here on earth, maybe that would be a good place to start if you want to start a mars colony.

Not everybody thought going to America was a good idea. It was all paid for out of investors and people's pockets. As for readiness, some will be, and some won't. That is life. Same thing happened with ships setting sail for the Americas, settlers settling North America, settlers setting the American west, and prospectors following the gold rushes. I expect once Musk has his Mars base set up, there will be a few research institutions that set up Mars research stations. I wish I had the money to setup the first general store on Mars. ;)
The Americas was already populated when it was discovered by the Europeans. It was colonised by Spain, England and France, and other countries who literally went bankrupt when racing to grab as much land as possible for their colonies. It was finances by states, and it was believed by most in power that it would be very profitable long term. Completely different situation from colonising Mars though.
 
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Offline apis

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #344 on: August 05, 2018, 03:03:14 pm »
.... A 3D printer can't print a battery, ...

I wouldn't be so positive about that. Researchers are having a lot of success in that area.
Really? I'm thinking of a general purpose 3D printer, not a machine that only makes batteries out of expensive pre-processed materials. Otherwise what is the big benefit to use it at a mars colony? Do you have any reference?

The problem is a battery is made of special materials, it's all chemistry, and a 3D printer can't produce the required chemicals. To 3D print a battery you would have to load the machines with the necessary materials and then it's suddenly more of a special purpose machine for making batteries, not something that can print a complete gadget.

3d printers are great, but they are just one tool among others you'd need, like a lathe or a cnc mill.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 03:19:34 pm by apis »
 

Offline apis

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #345 on: August 05, 2018, 05:05:16 pm »
Reading more about this fascinating subject I found out that the Soviet Union had a more or less complete working biosphere back in the 70's, but it was in a secret base in Siberia so almost no one knew about it.

It was called BIOS-3 (and in this case there really existed BIOS-1 and -2 predecessors). CO2 --> O2 was regenerated with algae and enough food (vegetarian) for one person could be grown on a 30 m2 area. The 3 person module used 400kW power though (and only generating about 50% of their food), but all the plants were artificially illuminated.

Seems like a (short term) self sustaining space station using spin gravity (or on the moon) could be viable. Would still depend on supplies from earth though, but maybe they could generate enough money from tourism to keep things going. :)
 

Offline rdl

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #346 on: August 05, 2018, 05:43:14 pm »
Quote
Completely different situation from colonising Mars though.

Reading the history of the first American colonies it's not difficult to see similarities with the possible colonization of Mars. The fact that you can't live on Mars without life support and that there are (probably) no natives to help out will make it much more difficult. The travel time between home and the colonies will be a lot longer also. All in all, Mars just seems like more trouble than it's worth to me, but I'm sure there were those that thought the same about America 400 years ago.
 
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #348 on: August 05, 2018, 09:50:53 pm »
Anyone who thinks traveling across the Atlantic in a sailing vessel and landing in a new wilderness on a planet tailor made to provide a human with everything they need to survive and thrive is somehow akin to humans colonizing Mars is demonstrating a severe lack of understanding of human physiology.  Mars has nothing a human needs to survive. North America in 1600 had everything a human needs.
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #349 on: August 05, 2018, 09:54:57 pm »
Not everybody thought going to America was a good idea.
The jury is still out on this one  >:D
 


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