why is the US not Metric

[KL27x]

At the end of the day there are a lot of reasons people can hate on America. And I suspect this is a part of the reason for the animosity towards America's continued use of the old imperial system.

If this is the reasoning, a US change to metric is only a symbolic gesture. If this is a good enough reason, then America could change. Is it?

Or would all of the America-haters complaining about imperial still hate America for the actual good reasons, of which there is no particular shortage?

[Zero999]

At the end of the day there are a lot of reasons people can hate on America. And I suspect this is a part of the reason for the animosity towards America's continued use of the old imperial system.

If this is the reasoning, a US change to metric is only a symbolic gesture. If this is a good enough reason, then America could change. Is it?

Or would all of the America-haters complaining about imperial still hate America for the actual good reasons, of which there is no particular shortage?

The US using the imperial system is a pretty stupid reason for the hate. The US have done some pretty bad things over the course of its history, as have the Brits, the Portuguese, Spanish, Germans, French etc.

[KL27x]

[MT]

This thread are prime example why standards cant be properly formulated and installed by multinational committees as everyone eventually will resort to pompousness and arrogance while feeling butthurt.

[SilverSolder]

[...] The US have done some pretty bad things over the course of its history, as have the Brits, the Portuguese, Spanish, Germans, French etc.

Welcome to the sprawling mess called Humanity.  Somehow we managed to make it out of the caves in spite of it all!

[KL27x]

This thread are prime example why standards cant be properly formulated and installed by multinational committees as everyone eventually will resort to pompousness and arrogance while feeling butthurt.

https://usma.org/laws-and-bills/metric-convention-of-1875

America is just as invested. This is interesting reading. The cost was supposed to be shared by all countries. They agreed to periodically check standards against each others for verification. In actuality, there are internationally owned prototypes, which all parties have access to. It's not just the meter and the liter. This includes thermometers, for instance. And to discuss potential ways to improve the way these standards are defined (for perhaps science and, say, the sake of consistency over millenia).

It's not a fluke that America redefined imperial units to metric rather than the other way around. Even when we're not using metric, we're on the same calibration. (Metric is the preferred units of international trade by law, as well as for government contracts).

There is even a 12 year advance notice period to request cancellation from the club. I suppose you forfeit up to 12 years of membership fees if you skip out early, lol. Your card will automatically be debited for an additional 144 monthly payments.

[bsfeechannel]

Methinks one of us needs to work on our reading comprehension, because that is NOT what was said.  He did not say that road signs COULDN'T be metric, he said that it doesn't matter what system they are in just as long as it is consistent.

We are straining out gnats while swallowing camels. None of those issues will really answer the OP's question.

When people ask "Why is the US not metric?", the full question is "Why is the US not metric in opposition to the whole world?" If your answer is "Because it'll cost a fortune", this raises the question "Why can't the US afford to be metric when the whole world could?" You can say, because there's no perceived benefit. Then someone will ask "Why can't the US see benefit in metrication when the whole world did?" You may say, "Well, because the US is a country of continental dimensions, and people pretty much roam inside its borders, so there's no need to adopt metric to agree with other countries." Then that Socratic social gadfly that lives inside all of us will ask "Why does the US blame its continental dimensions for not being metric when all the other continentally-dimensioned countries are (including Australia that borders no other country)?"

Answers like that give rise to huge straw man arguments, which is what this thread essentially is.

[KL27x]

^You spent time to write that? You basically ran out of things to say, but you're not done talking. Got it.

^So are you suggesting that changing to metric will fix this? Americans will have better healthcare because of meters? The cost will drop, infant mortality will drop, and life expectancy will increase? 

Oh, you got dragged completely off topic by a looney bin? 

No, I'm using it as an example of

Some countries think they're #1 and hence don't have to change; vs
Other countries know they're not #1, but are willing to do things to improve

IOW, you consider America's use of imperial to indicate that we believe our healthcare is #1. Our country is #1. And we don't want to change because we're basically fascists that think we're better than everyone else.

But... you concede that changing to metric doesn't change any of this nor anything else of significance (considering any and all arguments, thus far). It's just a symptom that doesn't have any real consequences. So changing to metric will be an important symbolic move to show that Americans no longer feel like America is #1 in healthcare. And measuring things. And w/e you imagine the real problem is?

Do you think Swedes thought their country is #1? Is that why they didn't want to change sides of the road? They thought they were the best country in the world, and they were better than everyone else? Do you think they secretly thought their method was the best? It surely had advantages and disadvantages. But do you think they ever thought that if they held out, eventually the entire rest of the world would come around and start driving right hand cars on the left side of the road, because they are so superior and "#1 country?" Or did it have anything at all to do with the fact they ALWAYS drove that way since the beginning of time? Including 5 minutes ago, when they drove home from work for the 1,000th time.

If it's for a symbolic move, I just don't see it having any effect. Our world and its people are way too sophisticated, today, for this to matter. It would be nothing but a joke. Just watch the decimal dollar jingle of Australia and imagine that passing for America's international public relations focus. Or footnote. Or Saturday Night Live skit for weeks.

What kind of message would this send? I don't even think America is necessarily the freeist country in the world. But America is part of the stabilizing force that maintains this status quo. What enables people to work and feel like they will one day enjoy any fruits of their labor, because there is stability in the world. But you want the poster child in this ideology of "western freedom" to force its citizens to change road signs against popular will. Just lookie here at this sweet freedom and democracy!

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I noticed in the Australian change of road signs video that I linked, and comparing that to my memories of the Bourne Identity chase scenes, it seems like a lot of the EU and/or metric countries use a similar speed limit sign with a red circle around a black number. You'd think the measuring system of science (and of horrendous 4-syllable unit names but great abbreviations in print) would also display the units on the sign as a mark of the new sanity. 

[Moshly]

I noticed in the Australian change of road signs video that I linked, and comparing that to my memories of the Bourne Identity chase scenes, it seems like a lot of the EU and/or metric countries use a similar speed limit sign with a red circle around a black number. You'd think the measuring system of science (and of horrendous 4-syllable unit names but great abbreviations in print) would also display the units on the sign as a mark of the new sanity. 

You need to ask the designer ->

[Tepe]

I noticed in the Australian change of road signs video that I linked, and comparing that to my memories of the Bourne Identity chase scenes, it seems like a lot of the EU and/or metric countries use a similar speed limit sign with a red circle around a black number. You'd think the measuring system of science (and of horrendous 4-syllable unit names but great abbreviations in print) would also display the units on the sign as a mark of the new sanity. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Signs_and_Signals
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergleich_europäischer_Verkehrszeichen

[tooki]

...
It's like that NHS thing.  The standard of care in the UK is to get an appointment in 12 weeks.  In 12 weeks I could be dead!  I can get an appointment with my HMO for the same day if the triage suggests things are serious.  I can go to one  facility for everything except overnight stays.  MRI, ECG, Lab, GP, Specialists are all in the same facility.  For the more serious stuff, I can go to any hospital emergency room and the cost is covered by my HMO.  Sure, it costs more than a buck ninety eight per month but it's worth it.  All socialized medicine accomplishes is to drag everybody down to the same level of misery.  Same as socialized anything else!

Spoken like someone who's drinking the USA Kool-aid.  Have you ever considered that the reason you see reports that (incorrectly) report UK, Canada, France health care as all 12-week waits is that they're sponsored by the very insurance/health-care business who's livelihood would be affected if there were real change.

If you have a serious issue, and you go into a hospital in the UK, in Canada, in France or almost any other 1st world country, you'll get treatment right away.   As for 'any hospital emergency room', I'll bet you (and plenty of your American friends) have "out of network" issues, that just don't exist elsewhere in the 1st world.

This is why the UK, Canada, France etc; all have measurably better life expectancy, and lower infant mortality rates than the USA.  (The USA lags even 2nd world countries like Costa Rica and Cuba in some numbers).

Last week my father-in-law was in town for a minor surgery. It was diagnosed as required (but not life threatening) a few weeks prior by his local GP in a very small town, and the surgery, plus the flight down to the big city, was all covered by our Canadian [according to you -- inferior] health care system.


The American "We're #1, we're better than you, we don't have to change anything" mentality, without examining the facts and looking at the rest of the world; is exactly why the USA lags the world in adoption of a single standard for measurement; and it's summed up in a single world

Arrogance

Aaron Sorkin summed it up nicely in the 1st five minutes of the show "the Newsroom"
https://youtu.be/wTjMqda19wk?t=94

As an American living in Europe, I completely concur with everything you said about healthcare.

[rstofer]

...
There is nothing government can do that is better than what private industry can do.  Nationalizing anything is always a huge mistake!
...

Healthcare

The US has demonstrably worse Health Care than almost all other 1st world (government run) healthcare systems; as I mentioned; but you knew that already as you read my post.

Let's look at the G7; and use the two most common measures of the effectiveness of healthcare systems.

Life Expectancy (CIA World factbook 2017)
Japan 2nd
Italy 14th
Canada 17th
France 18th
Germany 34th
UK 35th
USA 57th

Infant Mortality (World Bank)
Japan 6th
Italy 10th
Germany 19th
France 22nd
UK 24th
Canada 28th
USA 32nd

and now compare that to costs

yet the US spends the most per capita on healthcare (OECD 2017)
United States — $10,209 - 1st
Germany — $5,728 - 5th
France — $4,902 - 11th
Canada — $4,826 - 12th
Japan — $4,717 - 14th
United Kingdom — $4,246 - 17th
Italy — $3,542 - 20th


Coming dead last while spending twice as much is hardly a case for "There's nothing the government can do better than private industry"

But you never ask why?  How about the fact that infant mortality for 'crack babies' is included in the stats.  How about the fact that drug abusers are also included.  Life expectancy?  Well that includes drug abusers as well.

Somewhere there needs to be a way to exclude overdoses or gang warfare from impacting the stats.  Health care isn't the reason of the 40,000 gun related deaths, 60% were suicide, 37% were murder and 3% other.  Yet these count toward mortality rate.  We have about 50,000 suicides per year but this will overlap with other stats.  Then too, 10% of our population are drug users.

We have a liberal society run amok.  Hopefully the pendulum will swing back one day.

The healthcare itself is excellent.  It's what is included in the stats that would lead anyone to think we are substandard.

[MT]

The issue with the "senile old goats" is that they dream of a country that no longer exists.  I recall visiting England in the 70's, as a child.  The country had permanent sunshine and blue skies.  Its inhabitants were lily white boys in neat school uniforms that I played football (soccer) with every day, on vast expanses of green, fresh mown grass.  An ice cream van appeared every day and provided all the children with their daily sugar fix.  From that perspective, what could you possibly not like about England?

Fast forward to today.  The boys that played football in the everlasting summer are now at a stage in their lives where they can't read stuff on their cell phones without reading glasses.  Their hair is thinning.   They are generally overweight, overstimulated,  and have to watch their blood pressure.  Their doctors are telling them to take it easy. 

And with more money than our offspring will ever have.  We pillaged the system, accumulated a butt-load of money in our 401(k)s and home equity and we sit back living off Social Security and our pension(s) not even needing to tap our retirement accounts.  If it weren't for mandatory withdrawals (on the order of 8% per year) we would probably never need to touch the money.  I'm using my mandatory withdrawals to pay for my grandson's college education.  Nothing else to do with the money...

There's nearly $25 TRILLION dollars in retirement plans - no wonder the .gov is looking for a way to get their hands on it!
https://www.benefitspro.com/2015/06/30/total-retirement-assets-near-25-trillion-mark/?slreturn=20191109144620

We got ours, now it's your turn.  Show us what you got!

Not only that US has 24 trillions in debt and the entire finance system have been taken entirely black with FASAB56. Good Riddance!  Read all about it here:

https://home.solari.com/fasab-statement-56-understanding-new-government-financial-accounting-loopholes/
https://constitution.solari.com/fasab-statement-56-understanding-new-government-financial-accounting-loopholes/
https://constitution.solari.com/the-black-budget-the-crossroads-of-unconstitutional-appropriations-and-reporting/

Catherine served as managing director and member of the board of directors of the Wall Street investment bank Dillon, Read & Co. Inc., as Assistant Secretary of Housing and Federal Housing Commissioner at the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development in the first Bush Administration, and was the president of Hamilton Securities Group, Inc. Catherine has designed and closed over $25 billion of transactions and investments to-date and has led portfolio and investment strategy for $300 billion of financial assets and liabilities.

Catherine graduated from the University of Pennsylvania (BA), the Wharton School (MBA) and studied Mandarin Chinese at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. She blogs for the Solari Report at solari.com.

[rstofer]

At the end of the day there are a lot of reasons people can hate on America. And I suspect this is a part of the reason for the animosity towards America's continued use of the old imperial system.

If this is the reasoning, a US change to metric is only a symbolic gesture. If this is a good enough reason, then America could change. Is it?

Or would all of the America-haters complaining about imperial still hate America for the actual good reasons, of which there is no particular shortage?

Of course they would!

This whole thread started and continues as US bashing.  It has nothing to do with metric, that is just a tag.

But the good news is that we (I) don't give a sh**.  We're not going to change so keep on hating.  Me, I've been retired for 16 years and don't really concern myself with details.  Life is good!

But, if you really are hating the US, why not encourage your politicians to forgo our money and military?  Maybe rebalance the trade?  Cut the ties.  Believe me, you won't be missed.

There are exactly 3 countries the US can rely on:  Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain (maybe just England).  Everybody else is just slurping at the hog trough.  Taking the money, bitching about the banker.

Be honest about your hatred and quit relying on our support.  We really do have better things to do with our people and money.

i would think Poland would be very worried after Tusk's little stunt at the NATO meeting.  It might have been funny in the EU and, perhaps even London, but it didn't sell that well in the US.  Given a vote, the US would have been out of NATO 50 years ago.

[2N3055]

I wholeheartedly vote for this topic to be locked.

[bsfeechannel]

^You spent time to write that? You basically ran out of things to say, but you're not done talking. Got it.

Since with that post I questioned yet another one of your Frequently Questionable Answers, you must have a lot to say.

[bsfeechannel]

This whole thread started and continues as US bashing.  It has nothing to do with metric, that is just a tag.

We understand that the US promoting the imperial system is below its dignity as a country. And that the full adoption of the metric system will make people admire the US more.

But the good news is that we (I) don't give a sh**.  We're not going to change so keep on hating.  Me, I've been retired for 16 years and don't really concern myself with details.  Life is good!

The US military adopted the metric system. The US military is what guarantees the freedom the US currently enjoys.

So metric units are FREEDOM units. Fighting against them is highly unpatriotic and unamerican.

There are exactly 3 countries the US can rely on:  Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain (maybe just England).

This is the quote of the year. I want a T-shirt with that.

[KL27x]

^You spent time to write that? You basically ran out of things to say, but you're not done talking. Got it.

Since with that post I questioned yet another one of your Frequently Questionable Answers, you must have a lot to say.

Can you quote and highlight it for me. And then also give me the cliff notes interpretation? What part of any of my posts are you questioning/challenging? I'm copypasta'ing the whole thing as follows, for your convenience. It sounds like you are challenging other peoples' use of logic to shred your 6-yr-old-level arguments. You want to paint a vague picture and suggest dots that connect, but you demonstrate very poor understanding of the reality behind any of the words that you have strung into sentences. You are conveying a feeling. It's nice of you to share your feelings. But the world doesn't run on feelings. And Americans, especially, don't get out of bed and put up signs in exchange for feelings.

Methinks one of us needs to work on our reading comprehension, because that is NOT what was said.  He did not say that road signs COULDN'T be metric, he said that it doesn't matter what system they are in just as long as it is consistent.

We are straining out gnats while swallowing camels. None of those issues will really answer the OP's question.

When people ask "Why is the US not metric?", the full question is "Why is the US not metric in opposition to the whole world?" If your answer is "Because it'll cost a fortune", this raises the question "Why can't the US afford to be metric when the whole world could?" You can say, because there's no perceived benefit. Then someone will ask "Why can't the US see benefit in metrication when the whole world did?" You may say, "Well, because the US is a country of continental dimensions, and people pretty much roam inside its borders, so there's no need to adopt metric to agree with other countries." Then that Socratic social gadfly that lives inside all of us will ask "Why does the US blame its continental dimensions for not being metric when all the other continentally-dimensioned countries are (including Australia that borders no other country)?"

Answers like that give rise to huge straw man arguments, which is what this thread essentially is.

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The US military adopted the metric system. The US military is what guarantees the freedom the US currently enjoys.

So metric units are FREEDOM units. Fighting against them is highly unpatriotic and unamerican.

Firstly, dude. The US military is what guarantees the freedom that all of today's free countries enjoy. Including yours. The US provides just the army/tech/tactics. Ceasar hasn't taken control from the senate, yet. The rest of the oligarchy of free nations "gets theirs" out of the bargain, like they always have. Americans' standard of living is not #1. Not even close. Our military isn't teaming with idealistic freedom fighters. It's a job. It's a really attractive career with good pay and benefits. Many of our military might have few other options/opportunities to even come close at the point they sign the dotted line.

The Treaty of Versailles wasn't meant to keep a boot on Germany and Japan forever. It wasn't a coronation of America as king of the free world. It was an agreement to allow peace and stability while things got back to normal, with some measure of hope that this kind of thing (WWII) wouldn't ever have to happen again. Part of this safety measure is having the ability to back up what you say and what has been agreed upon. And EU can do that to Russia because of this arrangement with America. Not just the US military, but also the tech it sells to allies. In that way many NATO countries subsidize American military spending by buying the tech. It's part of how they chip in. But they also get to use and examine and learn from this tech. And of course have and control this tech when they sit down to negotiate with their restless neighbors. Except for Israel; they buy the tech because they keep running out. In the industry, maybe they call this a reload.

Secondly, dude. It is completely ok for an American to be unpatriotic and unamerican. It's the norm. We allow it, and no one is checking demerits on our government records.



So if our military uses metric for the reasons of working in concert with, performing training exercises with, and providing training to the rest of the Empire, so be it.

And if fighting against metric FREEDOM UNITS is unpatriotic and unamerican, then ok. I didn't really pay any money to "fight" it. I'm actually trying to avoid paying the cost if metrication happens. But ok, I'm "fighting metric." And it's unamerican? Then, I'm unamerican. Why don't you join me in fighting America (in this case it is as easy as simply doing nothing) instead of pushing your Freedom Units like an encyclopedia salesman?

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The last era where the world's most lethal and fearsome technology was owned and possessed by every common soldier was the Mongol Empire.  The Mongols succeeded because every single soldier in their armies was master of the horse and the bow. They could not only shoot the bow, they each knew how to construct, service and maintain their weapons. That is also the reason why they failed, due to internal conflict. Part of the secret to continued stability of our modern world is the centralized focus and control of technology. The other half is banks. This is how our old men keep control over the young men who actually deploy this modern technology. And this is what keeps the house of cards from falling down. If the rich old men who "got theirs" don't get to spend it, then what's to say you will, either.

[SparkyFX]

I haven't read all 17 pages... my sanity is not worth it, but consider this: contrary to public belief even countries that are described as "metric" do use imperial units and parts manufactured to these units all over the place.

Examples:
pipes and pipe threads
wheel rim diameters
other common applications, like fasteners for camera gear

So when the metric countries are used to not be 100% metric, whats the point in working oneself up to switch all of it in one country. There are plenty of such examples in both directions.

[rstofer]

This whole thread started and continues as US bashing.  It has nothing to do with metric, that is just a tag.

We understand that the US promoting the imperial system is below its dignity as a country. And that the full adoption of the metric system will make people admire the US more.

I don't think we actually run around with posters proclaiming the benefits of imperial units.  I don't think we care that much.
As to admiration by others, well, I don't think we care about that either.  Does anybody seriously think the question of this thread was in earnest?  Like they expected a scholarly answer?  Bull twinkle, it started out as US bashing and continues in that vein.

But the good news is that we (I) don't give a sh**.  We're not going to change so keep on hating.  Me, I've been retired for 16 years and don't really concern myself with details.  Life is good!

The US military adopted the metric system. The US military is what guarantees the freedom the US currently enjoys.

Well, 9mm was developed elsewhere but they still use .45 ACP pistols and 5.56mm is .223 while 7.62mm is .308, both very common rifle calibers.  In fact, they were imperial before the military renamed them.  Yes, there is a slight pressure difference between 5.56 and .223 but all common .223 rifles can handle it.  In terms of 7.62, the military long range projectile is the Sierra .308 175 gr BTHP and while I don't use the same powder or charge weight, the ballistics are excellent.  We're talking maybe 3/8" center-to-center groups at 100 yards.  A different rifle with the 180 gr BTHP will put them in a dime at 200m - yes, meters.  Not bad for an old guy who looks like a beached whale when prone.

See, that's another thing:  How do we handle ranges in meters or yards?  Well, we build scopes in terms of milradians and that is 1:1000 regardless of the units for small angles.  No more of the "Minutes Of Angle" (MOA).

So metric units are F/REEDOM units. Fighting against them is highly unpatriotic and unamerican.

There are exactly 3 countries the US can rely on:  Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain (maybe just England).

This is the quote of the year. I want a T-shirt with that.

If you get them printed, post back, I want one as well.

There's a reason I trust only those 3 countries and it has to do with personal interaction:

When I was working in Singapore, I would go to one of the islands off the east coast of Malaysia most weekends for a little diving.  The American School provided the food and the Australian and New Zealand embassies would donate the wine in baggies (5 liter?).  There were two divers (one from each country) who had, shall we say, extensive experience.  Then we had our resident CIA guy (yes, really) and he was a bit odd.  Turned my buddy's air off (instead of on) just before we jumped into a high current.  That was fun!  Never let anybody check your valve position!

One of the women was from GB and she was a marine biologist in charge of creating the aquarium on Sentosa Island, Singaore.  Very bright!  She knew everything that was happening in the water.

We all survived using Dive Tables in feet, tank pressure in PSI and tank volumes in cubic feet (nominal at max pressure).

Good times, good company!  Those are the 3 countries I trust.

And the project I was consulting for was measured in metric.  Somehow I survived...

As it turns out, modern silicon wafers are measured in mm.  That seemed important at the time.

[Tepe]

I haven't read all 17 pages... my sanity is not worth it, but consider this: contrary to public belief even countries that are described as "metric" do use imperial units and parts manufactured to these units all over the place.

Examples:
pipes and pipe threads
wheel rim diameters
other common applications, like fasteners for camera gear

So when the metric countries are used to not be 100% metric, whats the point in working oneself up to switch all of it in one country. There are plenty of such examples in both directions.

Spillover from the non-metric world. It's not your ancestors' Zoll that is used for those things.

[KL27x]

Spillover from the non-metric world.

LOL. So when bsfeechannel states the dozens of metricated countries still producing and buying and selling and using non-metric fasteners is the direct result of America's intentional evil to disrupt him from changing the screws in his washing machine, you believe that, too? Even though America never had anything to do with and probably doesn't make much if any of many of these british standards, such as BSF and Whitworth?

The guy complaining of buying a garbage disposal in UK that had 1 1/2" pipe connector rather than the 40mm connector, making it useless for his home? That is because of America? It's not because when UK metricated, they failed to properly tear down every home in their country to redo the plumbing while they were half-assing their road signs?

America is no doubt also the reason the world will continue to use AA alkaline batteries for the next 50 years?

It's a fascinating group delusion that some of you share. Be careful; it might be contagious.

FTR, rstopher is on his own planet, in this thread. He may have things right regarding metrication, but whatever other path he is beating, he is going down it on his own.

[bsfeechannel]

Well, 9mm was developed elsewhere but they still use .45 ACP pistols

.45 ACP. Sweet memories.

There are exactly 3 countries the US can rely on:  Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain (maybe just England).

This is the quote of the year. I want a T-shirt with that.

If you get them printed, post back, I want one as well.

I'll see what I can do.

And the project I was consulting for was measured in metric.  Somehow I survived...

 LOL

[rstofer]

FTR, rstopher is on his own planet, in this thread. He may have things right regarding metrication, but whatever other path he is beating, he is going down it on his own.

Yup!  I have always taken my own path.

[rstofer]

If the rich old men who "got theirs" don't get to spend it, then what's to say you will, either.

As long as the world doesn't run out of 'hookers and blow', we'll get to spend it.  Redistribution of income, I suppose...  Capitalism at its finest!