why is the US not Metric

[vk6zgo]

For every one of these Americans you have met, there are 20 people in Asia slaving away so these wonderful Americans can collect their disability and unemployment and their prescription benzos and opioids. [...]

Who do you think is happier...  a hard working person, or an obese person rotting in front of a 60 inch TV on schedule II drugs issued by the medical-industrial complex?

My heart felt sympathy goes to the latter, frankly...

I would like to be one of the latter, but unfortunately, fate decreed that, in retirement, I be the semi-able bodied member of the household for most of each day.

I liked most of my jobs, but happy?------Nah!
Most were good, but some were nightmarish, mostly due to moronic management.
That said, by retirement I was pretty much burnt out.

[tooki]

Our biggest export is air travel planes, which the fasteners and the ATC are imperial.

No, they're not.  Since the 80s, the FMS systems in Boeing aircraft use kg of fuel, not lbs. (see ACA143)
Plenty has switched over, and more is going.

The fact that the US refuses to switch is pure stubbornness

And changing from lbs to kg in aviation is something where Canada provided the perfect example of the hazards of switching systems: the Gimli Glider, the very flight number you mention.

For those who don’t know, the Gimli Glider was an incident with an Air Canada 767 whose fuel management system computer was broken, meaning that fuel management had to be done manually. (This is standard procedure, as fuel management automation is not mandatory equipment.) As it happens, this was right after Canada switched aviation fuel from lbs to kg, and while the ground crew executed the conversion algorithm correctly (from volume to weight or vice versa, I forget), they’d chosen the wrong formula for the units in question. So even though everyone double-checked the math, nobody realized it was the wrong formula entirely. The result was that the 767 ran out of fuel mid-flight.

ATC helped them locate an alternate airport, ultimately the Gimli air force base. To line up, they had to make a maneuver that is uncommon on airliners, a side slip, but luckily, the pilot was an experienced glider pilot and was highly experienced in conducting it, and he was able to line up perfectly. Unbeknownst to ATC and the pilots, Gimli had been retired as an airfield, and its runway was in use for drag racing or something. Like, in use at that very moment. Since a jet without engines makes little noise, people didn’t notice it coming in until the 767 was about to land on top of them. Whole families fled the runway, which had had a concrete jersey wall installed down the middle. As it turns out, the jersey wall proved invaluable in helping the 767 slow down. In the end, the only injury was a broken ankle from the emergency egress, and the plane was able to take off after being refueled, with only minor damage to the nose, and continued to fly for another 20-odd years until it was retired a few years ago.

Note to self, order one of those keychains made from a piece of the Gimli Glider’s fuselage.


So yeah, had there been no change from lbs/gal to kg/l, it wouldn’t have happened. The fuel management computer didn’t care. But the manual method did.


And as has been repeated before, not only are the aircraft built with tons of American threads, but air traffic control, etc are nearly universally non-metric.

[Tepe]

I was in Sweden when they switched...  I remember the city buses had the doors "boarded up" on the one side, and new doors installed on the other...

Even today, the on and off ramps on some of the highways bear witness to the change: their lengths are opposite of what would be expected.

[SilverSolder]

For every one of these Americans you have met, there are 20 people in Asia slaving away so these wonderful Americans can collect their disability and unemployment and their prescription benzos and opioids. [...]

Who do you think is happier...  a hard working person, or an obese person rotting in front of a 60 inch TV on schedule II drugs issued by the medical-industrial complex?

My heart felt sympathy goes to the latter, frankly...

I would like to be one of the latter, but unfortunately, fate decreed that, in retirement, I be the semi-able bodied member of the household for most of each day.

I liked most of my jobs, but happy?------Nah!
Most were good, but some were nightmarish, mostly due to moronic management.
That said, by retirement I was pretty much burnt out.

Getting older definitely sucks - until you consider the alternative...  Look on the bright side, you don't appear to live in a cold country!

Moronic management is something we have all had to deal with in our careers?  -  Enlightened management is something you probably only read about in business textbooks, rather than people you run into very often in the real world!

Interestingly, early retirement is linked with early death...   https://www.bmj.com/content/331/7523/995

"[...] Conclusions:  [...]  Mortality was higher in employees who retired at 55 than in those who continued working. [...]"

- Best regards.

[syau]

Our biggest export is air travel planes, which the fasteners and the ATC are imperial.

No, they're not.  Since the 80s, the FMS systems in Boeing aircraft use kg of fuel, not lbs. (see ACA143)
Plenty has switched over, and more is going.

The fact that the US refuses to switch is pure stubbornness

Runway length still show in feet (except China & Russia) and so as decision height 

Engine oil still sell in US QT, the only notice metric system is fuel uplift which most place us kg instead of lbs.

[bsfeechannel]

How?  By how much $$?

You might have missed this text from a link I posted six pages ago.

For example, total metric conversion costs for the 50 state highway departments are estimated to lie between $50 and $100 million. The states spend about $20 billion on highway construction every year so a 1 percent reduction in construction costs due to improved productivity and quality amounts to an annual savings of $200 million. At the 1 percent rate, the payoff for highway conversion takes 3 to 6 months with a savings of 100 to $150 million the first year and $200 million each succeeding year. Even at a tenth of this rate, the payback period is only 30 to 60 months with savings in each following year amounting to $20 million in perpetuity.

If it made good economic sense, the transition would have happened already.

That's why threads like this pop up every year on the forum and elsewhere. It DOES make all the economic sense in the world, yet the transition has "inexplicably" not happened.

If this is you caring about Americans, then thanks for the concern. We will feel your prayers.

I feel a sympathetic cringe for the US every time I see this map showing the countries that use Fahrenheit:

Be honest to yourself and to us that this is just your own strong personal preference, nothing more.

Isn't exactly this the precise reason given for the use of imperial in the US? Has not The History Guy said that they use it because they chose to?

Why is the preference for metric a problem, but not for imperial?

[KL27x]

The states spend about $20 billion on highway construction every year so a 1 percent reduction in construction costs due to improved productivity and quality amounts to an annual savings of $200 million.

That is a factual statement, but it is irrelevant. A 0.001% reduction in costs would be $200 thousand a year. Fact. But we won't get that, either. Changing to metric improves neither the productivity nor quality of highways nor the construction of, so it won't save any money that way. We pave our roads with asphalt, not with inches. Maybe we will save some big money on 911 calls by confused tourists? This sounds like every single dumbass's pitch on Shark Tank. "But it's a 10 billion dollar a year market. If we get just 1% of that, our valuation is a bargain!"

What's the source of this garbage propaganda? The United States Metric Association? And what's your angle? Tell me you have an angle. Family ties to US DOT or contractor of? Just want to watch the US waste billions of dollars?

Is this a cause to you? 

Are you just trying to win an internet argument?

You seem to think that measuring concrete and asphalt in imperial leaves leftover inches and oz's that get thrown away, like that last bit of toothpaste that's hard to get out of the tube. Can you please explain what is going on in your head? It can't be that hard for you to state where it is you think the magic money comes from. Saving batteries in calculators? Saving the brain power and global warming caused by mental conversions? Saving 0.002 kb of program memory on our soldering iron firmwares?

The list of US companies that changed to metric had real savings because of real reasons that don't necessarily apply to things like roads. Acceptance in foreign markets. Fitting design specs to make best use of materials that are cheaper in certain (say metric) sizes.

The real cost of imperials is a slight inefficiency in supply and demand. There will be foreign buyers who don't as easily connect with US sellers. But in any case where a US seller wants to sell overseas, he is going to list his product in metric. That foreign buyer who ignores a US listing in inches wasn't going to pay the shipping and/or the seller wasn't going to bother sending the thing to Zimbabwe, anyway. There's no export business in the US trying to get anyone else to use imperial.

Why is the preference for metric a problem, but not for imperial?

You can prefer w/e you want. No one has a problem with your preference of measuring system. That's not what makes your arguments naive and senseless.

[coppercone2]

can we get the bridges pre assembled and certified in china to lower costs? if we can get rid of the test and inspection phase after construction we can bring project costs WAY down

[KL27x]

Tooki, yeah the problem with changing units is like changing directions on a mill and getting backlash.

As long as you stick to the same system, you will hide one kind of idiot. After you change to a new system, these idiots have "new problems."

I can't find a link, but I read about another Canadian conversion 'tard. An astronaut. The fuel gauge on the whatevermabob was broken, so he had to fill it by mass of fuel. And he filled it with lb's instead of kg's. You'd think that would get covered in training before we shot him into orbit. It may have been ground control that gave him the wrong instructions, of course. It was around the 80's or 90's? Nothing too bad happened. The satellite ran out of fuel too early, but it was not a major issue.

[tooki]

Be honest to yourself and to us that this is just your own strong personal preference, nothing more.

Isn't exactly this the precise reason given for the use of imperial in the US? Has not The History Guy said that they use it because they chose to?

Why is the preference for metric a problem, but not for imperial?

Nothing wrong with having a personal preference. My gripe is with you pretending your personal preference is somehow empirically superior in all situations, which it isn’t. You’ve been provided with ample evidence that switching would involve significant costs, added risk, and in many situations for little or no benefit whatsoever. That you continue to reject those explanations even though they’re indisputable just shows that you’ve got a preference-based dogma. Hence why I said you should stop being dishonest and pretending that the arguments in favor of switching are crystal clear. You’d get a lot more respect from others if you showed that you understand nuance and context, but you don’t. Just dogma.

[SilverSolder]

[...] I feel a sympathetic cringe for the US every time I see this map showing the countries that use Fahrenheit [only the USA... pretty much ...]

I grew up with Metric, but find myself quite liking Fahrenheit for having about 2x the resolution of the Celsius scale!

There are some elderly people in Britain that still use Fahrenheit as well, whatever the official decision is.

[Martin.M]

why is the US not Metric 

the question is not exactly, the US is mixed.
Examples:

All old Tek Scopes have a Time Base where you have to select V/cm (not V / 1/2inch).
And all screws inside are UNC.

"imperial" means british? my english is not the best.
When we look for the screws:

There are 3 familys in the word:

the britisch, inch screws,
the american UNC/UNF,
and the metric.

Here in germany it`s not all metric, water pipes are still imperial.
It is a rather old story of marketing, each kitchen chef want the own cake, so also here:

the imperial screws are in inches, with a angle of 55° in the cut.
the metric screws are metric, with a angle of 60° in the cut.
And the american UNC is imperial, but with the 60° cut from the metrics...

So all are lucky bec. the screws from the other side will not be useful in the own market 
This mix is working since a very long time, it works good and there is no reason to change anything.
So the german kid have to learn in the scool also what is a inch, or a land- or a sea mile, how many mm is a inch, how many inch is a feet and so on,
that`s very good bec. they are stupid.

I am only a little disapointed about the little allen key for knobs, the american size (is that " 50 tou "?) is exactly between our parts in the tools box, the one is to small and the next is to large.

Martin

[bsfeechannel]

My gripe is with you pretending your personal preference is somehow empirically superior in all situations, which it isn’t.

If the fact that the metric system has been adopted by the whole world and that it pervades all science, technology, engineering, etc. (even in the US) cannot convince you about the empirical vast superiority of the metric system, do you think that my personal preferences would?

Are you just trying to win an internet argument?

What argument?

[KL27x]

^What argument? Your position has been that the common person in America uses imperial because they are ignorant and arrogant. And that is costs a significant amount of money, but you can't seem to even comprehend what this means.

You don't accept that Americans learn metric and use only metric in school. They know everything about metric that you do. Every single American. Knows everything you do about metric. And they also know what a quarter pounder is. The reasons they use imperial is mostly for convenience in places where none of the advantages of metric apply. They know this, because they know the advantages of metric. And they know what their daily lives are. You seem to be stuck on just the advantages of a measuring system with no idea how that relates to your own life.

You would also never accede that history has given the best unit names to imperial. Imperial has the mile, foot, inch, thou, tenth, yard, cup, pint, ounce, ton, quart, grain. Maybe something to do with imperial being evolved from the measuring system used by humans for millennia since at least the beginning of known history and possibly for millennia before known history. (Maybe you prefer the term megayears?) In contrast, most metric units are 3-4 syllables, other than the gram and liter. Like Spanish, it sounds like you're talking faster, but you are saying the same amount of information. Also it happens to kinda suck that centi and centa would be pronounced essentially the same, at least in American english. Hence hecto rather than centa.

Do you wonder why centi seems to only ever be used for centimeters... hecto only ever seems to be used for hectares; all this versatility, and not that much of it actually useful in practice? If you use centiliters or hectograms in your communications, do you think people would thank you for saving them the hassle of a couple zeros? Or would your friends tell you to stop being a dumbass?

Do you ever wonder why metric users use the word "ton" rather than megagram? Re-using "ton" you always have to specify "metric ton," anyway.  Is it because at some point metric prefixes become stupid, outside of specific uses or comparisons? (You know what a zettameter and a petaliter are without looking them up, right? Kinda like how a rod or a perch were only ever used within certain industries, and 99% of imperial user base didn't ever care what those things are but somehow got on with life, anyhow?) Or are the people using metric just dumb?

Do you think China ATC gives planes clearance to ascend from 8 hectometers to 1.5 kilometers? Or do you think they stick with the one unit that makes the most sense for the scale?

BTW, do people in your metric countries say "clicks" or is that completely douchey? Maybe some people say "kay ems," too? Or do common folks just say kilometers to preserve the extra scienceness? "Kilos" seems to be used for weight, already. If americans used metric in daily life, we would probably come up with something better suited to our version of English for km. "Killems?" Maybe in another 30 years that would turn into "kims?" Our military might say "clicks," but maybe I saw that in a movie.

[tooki]

My gripe is with you pretending your personal preference is somehow empirically superior in all situations, which it isn’t.

If the fact that the metric system has been adopted by the whole world and that it pervades all science, technology, engineering, etc. (even in the US) cannot convince you about the empirical vast superiority of the metric system, do you think that my personal preferences would?

For the umpteenth time, the issue is that switching systems invokes cost and risk. And for no benefit in many situations. How can you not get this through your thick skull?

The situations where it does make sense, they have switched or are in the process. But others it makes no sense because the unit simply doesn’t matter. But costs and risks do, so changing then makes no sense.

[coppercone2]

eevblog where the real engineering happens, because things get personal

[CatalinaWOW]

The article in the picture is from my local newspaper yesterday.  It perfectly encapsulates all of the points from this thread.  America is metric where it matters for commerce.  And doesn't really care or have a good reason to change in the remaining areas.

By the way, the fact that newspapers are still published, and that I still take it is another one of those examples of inertia holding onto an old way of doing things.  That and the economic benefits.  I get cheap packing material, fire starter, paint drop cloths and other uses along with the news.  If I went to electronic media I would have to buy all of those things, plus pay for accessing the the media.  And just to get the same marginally worthwhile or interesting news a few hours sooner.

[Mr. Scram]

You guys are still going at it eh? 

[SilverSolder]

[...do people in] metric countries say "clicks" or is that completely douchey? Maybe some people say "kay ems," too? Or do common folks just say kilometers [...]

Most ordinary transactions in metric countries use just a few units.  Everyone will be familiar with a liter (gasoline, milk), and a deciliter (cream), and some standard quantities of grams like 250g, 500g, etc., for buying butter etc.   People are generally also familiar with Kg (for larger weights, including the weight of persons) and every child will know that there is 1,000Kg in a ton.    For length, everyone will know cm and meter, km and mm, which are all used in daily speech.  People tend to say them like they are written, e.g. kilometer is what they say.

As you said, once you go outside the "comfort zone" you have to start looking things up.

Electronics guys are comfortable with prefixes like Micro, Nano, and Pico - but I would not expect hardly anyone outside of this circle to be familiar with those.

[KL27x]

As a user of imperial, I propose we donate some of imperials unit names to metric.

We have a "lick" we could donate to replace meter. A "click" for kilolick would work out. Maybe pronounced as two syllables, to avoid confusion with "lick" over the radio. As in kah-Lik'.
 
We could give away the "peck" for the liter. And then we can buy our soda in "Tupac's," or "Shakurs." The shakur could become its own unit of 2 pecks.

This french guy sucked at naming things.

Shortest way to say 250g is "two fifty grams." Or maybe "quarter kilo." Vs half pound.

The metric ton is annoying, because now we have to also specify "imperial tons." If you guys can't call them megagrams, why not come up with a new name? I propose 1 shaq = 1000 kg. "This thing weighs a shaq!"

[SilverSolder]

^We could do an exchange!

How about deci-foot, kilo-pound, milli-inch, etc.!   

[vk6zgo]

can we get the bridges pre assembled and certified in china to lower costs? if we can get rid of the test and inspection phase after construction we can bring project costs WAY down

I thought that was what they did now!

[KL27x]

The shipping makes it too expensive. To build our railroads it was way more efficient to import the chinese workers and limit their rights. Even at pure physical labor, chinese workers were twice as productive as white people. And we got Treez thinking UK can compete with China at electronics manufacturing. It's cheaper to just keep our first world workers on unemployment and welfare. Put them in an Asian electronics manufacturing factory, and they will cost their employer millions a year in low productivity and fuckups.

[vk6zgo]

^What argument? Your position has been that the common person in America uses imperial because they are ignorant and arrogant. And that is costs a significant amount of money, but you can't seem to even comprehend what this means.

You don't accept that Americans learn metric and use only metric in school. They know everything about metric that you do. Every single American. Knows everything you do about metric. And they also know what a quarter pounder is. The reasons they use imperial is mostly for convenience in places where none of the advantages of metric apply. They know this, because they know the advantages of metric. And they know what their daily lives are. You seem to be stuck on just the advantages of a measuring system with no idea how that relates to your own life.

You would also never accede that history has given the best unit names to imperial. Imperial has the mile, foot, inch, thou, tenth, yard, cup, pint, ounce, ton, quart, grain. Maybe something to do with imperial being evolved from the measuring system used by humans for millennia since at least the beginning of known history and possibly for millennia before known history. (Maybe you prefer the term megayears?)

Not really, millennia refers to "thousands of years", not "millions of years".

 In contrast, most metric units are 3-4 syllables, other than the gram and liter. Like Spanish, it sounds like you're talking faster, but you are saying the same amount of information. Also it happens to kinda suck that centi and centa would be pronounced essentially the same, at least in American english. Hence hecto rather than centa.

Do you wonder why centi seems to only ever be used for centimeters... hecto only ever seems to be used for hectares; all this versatility, and not that much of it actually useful in practice? If you use centiliters or hectograms in your communications, do you think people would thank you for saving them the hassle of a couple zeros? Or would your friends tell you to stop being a dumbass?

You can blame all that upon the SI system.
The previous versions of "Metric" did use the centimetre, (& indeed, centilitre), but in the SI system, they like to mainly have 1000x  multipliers between each level of preferred units, hence, centimetres are "deprecated".

The Metrication Board in Oz got a "bee in their bonnet" about the possibility of error due to missing of a decimal point, so also discouraged the use of metres  & decimal parts of metres, so that you will probably measure a space as "2.5m", then if you want something to fit that space, you buy a 2500mm "something".
You then pay in Dollars & decimal parts of a Dollar.---go figure!

Do you ever wonder why metric users use the word "ton" rather than megagram? Re-using "ton" you always have to specify "metric ton," anyway. 

As far as I know, only Americans use the term "metric tons", these days.
The Metric term is "Tonnes"--------before you ask, ex Imperial countries don't try to pronounce it differently, & just say "ton".
After all, the difference between the Imperial ton & the Tonne is that the latter is about 1.6% smaller----"bees dick" territory!
Everything which comes by large weight (actually mass to be be pedantic) is expressed in the same "Tonne" -----there are no "Long Tonnes" or " Short Tonnes".

 Is it because at some point metric prefixes become stupid, outside of specific uses or comparisons? (You know what a zettameter and a petaliter are without looking them up, right? Kinda like how a rod or a perch were only ever used within certain industries, and 99% of imperial user base didn't ever care what those things are but somehow got on with life, anyhow?) Or are the people using metric just dumb?

Do you think China ATC gives planes clearance to ascend from 8 hectometers to 1.5 kilometers? Or do you think they stick with the one unit that makes the most sense for the scale?

Like, maybe, metres?

BTW, do people in your metric countries say "clicks" or is that completely douchey? Maybe some people say "kay ems," too? Or do common folks just say kilometers to preserve the extra scienceness? "Kilos" seems to be used for weight, already. If americans used metric in daily life, we would probably come up with something better suited to our version of English for km. "Killems?" Maybe in another 30 years that would turn into "kims?" Our military might say "clicks," but maybe I saw that in a movie.

To my understanding"clicks"was a Vietnam Veteran "thing"-----I've heard a few people in Oz use the term, but most people just say "ks".
Context is everything in using shortened forms, & nobody would think you were referring to kHz or kg, if you said:-
"Fred lives a coupla "k" down the road."

[KL27x]

^^^ thought re: vk6zgo

Not really, millennia refers to "thousands of years", not "millions of years".

Yeah, thanks. It's  kiloyears, I take it.

----there are no "Long Tonnes" or " Short Tonnes".

Agreed. Bringing up long tons and tower oz is a strawman argument. It's 2019.
In the normal metric form you ought to call it a megagram, though. "Ton" was and is still in usage. The fact you use the word ton instead of megagram shows an example of the metric benefit that doesn't hold up to real world language and usage. In the multiple kiloyears of usage of what I still call imperial (American Customary?) the names of units somehow became quite efficient.

"Ton" is a good start for metric. And if you say a "ton" is a metric ton without qualification, then I welcome you to it. Majority rules, right? I hope that holds up and becomes even legally recognized in America. I would have thought it might require occasional clarification even in formerly imperial countries, and I hope it is as you say. When you're buying/selling tons, the $$ is usually pretty important. Now, since I can do that, can you stop bringing up long tons? The long ton now really, really doesn't matter anymore, to me, seeing as I have essentially agreed never to use the word "ton" again in my own country, and I'm totally fine with that. For the sake of world progress. I hope the world can enjoy metric's second halfway decent unit name, unmolested by the ghosts of the short ton and long ton. (Gram is awesome).

Like, maybe, metres?

Of course they use meters in China's ATC. That was my point. And in the majority of the world, they use feet. The fact there is such a weird number of 6075 feet in a nautical mile doesn't matter to a pilot, because they only use feet for altitude. Same as they only use meters in China. The "decimal point shift" is one of the supposed advantages of metric that looks great on paper but actually doesn't mean a lot in the real world in this particular context.

You can blame all that [the lack of say centiliter and hectogram in common usage] upon the SI system.

I wonder now if a unit such as centiliter would be allowed in legal documents? Even if it weren't for "SI" or legal acceptance, I still think your friends would call you a dumbass. The imperial units are mostly 1 or 2 syllables for a reason. There are only so many 3-4 syllable unit names you want to use/recognize to avoid confusion, and there are only so many good shortened versions that you will come up with. This is why SI made its recommendations. The lego plug n play works great on paper, in text, in computer programs, in emails. Not always so good in real time conversation, though.

To my understanding"clicks"was a Vietnam Veteran "thing"-----I've heard a few people in Oz use the term, but most people just say "ks".
Context is everything in using shortened forms, & nobody would think you were referring to kHz or kg, if you said:-
"Fred lives a coupla "k" down the road."

Yeah, that works. Like "quart" is a quarter of a gallon. You have "kay" for kilometer, and I would assume "kee'-low" for kilograms. And that pretty much covers it. Cuz you probably don't need kilo-anything else for common language.