why is the US not Metric

[ebastler]

^None of that other stuff matters, though. It's just a label on a container. You sell us the same stuff, just with oz printed on it, or whatnot. We don't care. It doesn't matter.

Just coming off a call with a few US colleagues, about designing a shielding enclosure for an experimental X-ray setup. Which needs to incorporate an off-the-shelf, vibration-isolated breadboard. Needs to adhere to certain gap tolerances. And which needs to fit through a doorframe.

Believe me, centimeters vs. inches does matter! And it is an endless source of misunderstandings, conversion errors, people struggling to get the same mental picture etc.

I was surprised that my colleagues -- all of them experienced engineers -- did not deal with centimeters more fluently, to be honest. This is a US-based company, which has however "gone metric" for all new designs years ago, since we sell internationally. Goes to show how deeply engrained those units you have grown up with are for everyone! Which is, of course, exactly why this thread is running on and on... 

[KL27x]

Believe me, centimeters vs. inches does matter! And it is an endless source of misunderstandings, conversion errors, people struggling to get the same mental picture etc.

This is perfect example. The problem is not with imperial. The problem is that these Americans are stupid.
If we all conform to one system, these americans do not become smarter. They can just more easily hide their incompetence.

I work with other americans in designing PCBs and housings. I use imperial. He uses metric. Never once we ask another to use our units. We both offer to use the other's units, and we both decline. We have never had any mixup. If your american partner is stupid and you are so great, why not offer to use imperial yourself? This is only a problem when both parties are incompetent. In this case you hire a "translator." Maybe one of you has an 8 yr old kid who can help you out. The 8 yr old learned this more recently and perhaps still remembers how to do a conversion.

To me imperial was more natural because of experience with breadboards and 0.1" headers. And also to visual trace width, now. I just know what is what, more naturally. But to anyone I work with I will gladly adapt if they want. It is not much more to me but hitting a menu option. But when working with actual physical objects and fitting, I think always in imperial. When something is tight or rubbing or off just a tad, I can tell by the feel how many thousandths of an inch to change it. A thousandth is something that is real. I can see a thous; I can feel down to probably half a thous. This is my calibration to the physical world. I will translate this to metric if my partner prefers it, no problem.

So far, we've had only one minor clarification to cover. And that had nothing to do with metric. FWIW, who the heck else here calls a radius a chamfer?

[tooki]

litres per 100km alwoys confused me. I mean why?

Because that is how normal people think. A normal person thinks "hmmm, I would like to go visit my aunt Arleen who is 56 Km away; knowing the car uses 7.2 liters per 100 km then I can know I need 0.56 * 7.2 liters to go to her house". 

Very few people think "hmm, I have 4 liters of fuel, how many Km can I travel with that and who lives at that distance so I can visit them".

In other words, when doing calculations the distance is given and the fuel is the quantity desired, not the other way around.

What arrogance. It’s just as logical to calculate distance per volume: “I need to go x distance, so how much fuel do I need to buy?” That the l/100km seems logical to you is simply because it’s what you grew up with. Just as mpg is logical to me because it’s what I grew up with. Neither approach has any advantage or disadvantage over the other, since they’re simple reciprocals of each other. (And indeed, while I’m not aware of any place that uses gallons per mile, there apparently are places where km/l is the measure used.)

But moreover, people rarely do such calculations. They just fill up when the tank is low. So you really only compare fuel efficiency numbers when purchasing a car. And it doesn’t make one rat’s patoot of difference whether it’s distance per volume or volume per distance. You just know that in the former, you want as large a number as possible, and in the latter as small as possible, and you compare models.

[bsfeechannel]

Wow, freedom gallons. So many metric trolls. I think the metric trolls added up in this thread convert to 4.6 rstophers, imperial unit of troll. Conversion is 1 rstopher: 1.108 bsfeechannel.

I've seen numerous jokes ridiculing the metric system, or praising the refusal to seriously adopt it, on the media in the US along the past 5 decades. No one can complain now that the US has become the joke in that regard.

What is the exact economic benefit of changing the units we measure our roads by from miles to km?   

I'll invert the question. What exact economic benefit did all other countries in the world see in measuring their roads in km instead of miles? Did they think they'd save on tires or fuel with that change?

It doesn't matter what the number system is, as long as everything matches.   The distance could be miles, or kilometers, or furlongs or kilosmoots, it wouldn't matter.   I'm not doing engineering with those figures.

So you drive a motorized vehicle along a road and you think you're not doing engineering. Well, whoever builds and maintains the road is.

When I build a road in the US, I can use the meter. But then I have to give the distances in miles and clearances in feet and inches because the drivers will not understand that they can use the same unit that was used to build the road.

It's really frustrating to hear people say "the US isn't metric".

Because that's the truth.

If you use half a dozen units of length besides the meter, you defeat one of the purposes of metrication which is to replace all those historical units with the standard itself.

And here we have the heart of the problem.  While the cost of replacing all of the non-metric street signs in America is trivial, the cost of replacing his brain dead, useless, totally antiquated US sourced products that he bought with beautiful metricated products, or the cost of moving back to some enlightened, forward thinking, economically advantaged part of the world is totally unreasonable.

Pardon me while I shed crocodile tears.

Maybe you think that, because the US still uses imperial units, they are automatically fashionable. But I can assure you they are not. Outside the US, imperial is seen as deprecated, old-school, obsolete and, in many cases, a nuisance.

It may carry some vintage charm, perhaps a nostalgic note, but it stops there.

Many would like to see it wiped out for good. And if the US helped to make it disappear, that would be "heavy". 

[CatalinaWOW]

And here we have the heart of the problem.  While the cost of replacing all of the non-metric street signs in America is trivial, the cost of replacing his brain dead, useless, totally antiquated US sourced products that he bought with beautiful metricated products, or the cost of moving back to some enlightened, forward thinking, economically advantaged part of the world is totally unreasonable.

Pardon me while I shed crocodile tears.

Maybe you think that, because the US still uses imperial units, they are automatically fashionable. But I can assure you they are not. Outside the US, imperial is seen as deprecated, old-school, obsolete and, in many cases, a nuisance.

It may carry some vintage charm, perhaps a nostalgic note, but it stops there.

Many would like to see it wiped out for good. And if the US helped to make it disappear, that would be "heavy".

I said nothing about fashion.  It was suggested that if you don't like Imperial, or what we call in the US, Standard units just buy from a metric country or don't live in a non-metric country.  Your response was "too late".  Implying that you either live in a non-metric country or own non-metric equipment.  Both of those problems can be solved without the US going metric, though it would involve some expense on your part. 

I am sorry I added all of the fluffy adjectives because it clearly caused you to miss the point.  Which is that you seem to be completely dismissive of the costs to the US of changing, but unwilling to incur any costs to cure your own discomfort.

By the way, in another post you suggested that the world could raise several billion dollars to get the US to change.  If you were to actually do this you might find yourself surprised and needing to find a way to write the check.  No guarantees, but here as in most of the world money talks.

[bsfeechannel]

I said nothing about fashion.  It was suggested that if you don't like Imperial, or what we call in the US, Standard units just buy from a metric country or don't live in a non-metric country.  Your response was "too late".  Implying that you either live in a non-metric country or own non-metric equipment.  Both of those problems can be solved without the US going metric, though it would involve some expense on your part.

I said too late because we are not discussing my preferences. We are discussing why the US is not metric. Your suggestion that I don't buy products made in the US or that I don't touch the US ground will not explain the issue.

I am sorry I added all of the fluffy adjectives because it clearly caused you to miss the point.

The point is moot. I like fluffy adjectives, though.

Which is that you seem to be completely dismissive of the costs to the US of changing, but unwilling to incur any costs to cure your own discomfort.

It'll cost the US some money to change to metric. So what? The rest of the world spent the required money to adapt. Aren't you the least bit interested in understanding why they did that?

By the way, in another post you suggested that the world could raise several billion dollars to get the US to change.  If you were to actually do this you might find yourself surprised and needing to find a way to write the check.  No guarantees, but here as in most of the world money talks.

The world's economy minus the US is $65 trillion. $7 billion is pocket change.

[Cubdriver]

litres per 100km alwoys confused me. I mean why?

Because that is how normal people think. A normal person thinks "hmmm, I would like to go visit my aunt Arleen who is 56 Km away; knowing the car uses 7.2 liters per 100 km then I can know I need 0.56 * 7.2 liters to go to her house". 

Very few people think "hmm, I have 4 liters of fuel, how many Km can I travel with that and who lives at that distance so I can visit them".

In other words, when doing calculations the distance is given and the fuel is the quantity desired, not the other way around.

No, I think "I need to go to the airport, and it's 54 miles away.  My car gets about 30 miles per gallon.  I can make it if I have at least two gallons in the tank."  When I'm going somewhere, I'm not looking to put the minimum amount of fuel in the tank to get there, I want to be able to guesstimate my range to know if I'll need to plan to get gas or not.  If for instance the tank holds 12.6 gallons and the vehicle gets 30 mpg, a full tank gives me a range of about 360 miles (to leave some reserve so as not to run out).  If I know how far I'm going, and about how much fuel is in the tank, I quickly see if there's enough or not.

Two different ways of computing the same thing.  I'm used to my way, so yours seems at a glance overly complex to me.  You're used to yours, so mine seems bass-ackwards to you.

-Pat

[KL27x]

^This thread made me realize that in the game/app Day R Survival, the fuel consumption of the vehicles was listed in a typical metric fashion of L per 100km. I thought it was just a random design choice by the game maker. Or that maybe that is how they do it in Russia (where the game takes place).

I'm sure this is easier to those that are used to it. But to me I actually thought maybe they did it to make the game more difficult. I never had an epiphany that it was better or more convenient.

bfseechannel:

I'll invert the question. What exact economic benefit did all other countries in the world see in measuring their roads in km instead of miles?

Great question. We all want to know the answer to this. So far I have heard vague answers about metrification reducing costs for trade. But since you seem to have the correct answers, let's hear 'em from the horse's mouth. I think it makes it easier for travellers passing through a small country in Europe that people drive across in 1 hour. Maybe it makes Garmin's life easier. But maybe you are sitting on some secret game-changers?

I cannot imagine how this would change my life. Let alone how this would change the life of someone who doesn't even live here. If this is all about "being on the same page with the rest of the world" and "progress" then I'll pass. This is feel-good buzz words. If this is about a warm fuzzy feeling in the vagina, that's wonderful. As long as someone else pays for it.

[Cubdriver]

What is the exact economic benefit of changing the units we measure our roads by from miles to km?   

I'll invert the question. What exact economic benefit did all other countries in the world see in measuring their roads in km instead of miles? Did they think they'd save on tires or fuel with that change?

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  You're trying to convince us to spend unknown (but surely ridiculous) amounts of money to replace every sign that indicates a speed or a distance, on every road in the entire United States.  I don't need to justify NOT doing it, YOU need to convince me why we should.  All the drivers here think in miles and feet.  Speedometers are primarily marked in miles per hour. Odometers register miles, not km. In addition to replacing all the signage, do you suggest that everyone get their odometers replaced?  Re-gearing them won't work as that will bugger up the speed indication.  (Not that re-gearing them is really any more sensible) Granted in many newer vehicles with electronic indicators it may just be a code change, but it's still a trip in for an otherwise unnecessary service, and there are more than 270 million cars in the US.  Do you expect every driver to pay an additional $50+ dollars per vehicle to get this done, too?  In my opinion at least (and, from what I gather, the opinions of at least several others here in this thread), you have utterly failed to present a worthy reason.  "Because everyone else is" is not a very convincing justification to spend unknown billions of dollars to change something THAT IS WORKING JUST FINE FOR US!!

It doesn't matter what the number system is, as long as everything matches.   The distance could be miles, or kilometers, or furlongs or kilosmoots, it wouldn't matter.   I'm not doing engineering with those figures.

So you drive a motorized vehicle along a road and you think you're not doing engineering.

Are you suggesting that drivers ARE doing engineering?  If not, what do you even mean by this statement?

Well, whoever builds and maintains the road is.

So?  What difference do the units used when the road is constructed make to the end user?  I drove up to Canada a few years ago.  I really didn't notice any difference in the roads, and my American vehicle had no issues whatsoever traveling on them.  Millions of people around the world plug their appliances and radios and computers into receptacles in the walls of their houses, and use those items as a matter of routine.  How many of them do you think have the foggiest notion of where the electricity comes from or how it gets to them?  Lots of engineering there, but no one really needs to know it in order to utilize the product.  Knowing the engineering involved in many things is completely unnecessary to USE said things.  Roads are among those things that don't require engineering knowledge to drive upon.

When I build a road in the US, I can use the meter. But then I have to give the distances in miles and clearances in feet and inches because the drivers will not understand that they can use the same unit that was used to build the road.

Yeah, and?  So what? 

And here we have the heart of the problem.  While the cost of replacing all of the non-metric street signs in America is trivial, the cost of replacing his brain dead, useless, totally antiquated US sourced products that he bought with beautiful metricated products, or the cost of moving back to some enlightened, forward thinking, economically advantaged part of the world is totally unreasonable.

Pardon me while I shed crocodile tears.

    

Maybe you think that, because the US still uses imperial units, they are automatically fashionable. But I can assure you they are not.

Nor is that what we think, as has been pointed out to you REPEATEDLY in this thread.  Are you truly incapable of grasping this, or are you being intentionally obtuse in order to continue making your arguments?

Outside the US, imperial is seen as deprecated, old-school, obsolete and, in many cases, a nuisance.

Then, once again, feel free not to buy or use any of our 'deprecated, old-school, obsolete, nuisance' things.  I think I can assure you that we will not shed many tears.

-Pat

[Cubdriver]

Oh, and let's not forget that there were not quite as many road signs and other infrastructure back in the mid-late 1800s when Europe went metric.  If my knowledge of history serves, it took place before the widespread use of the motor car, and modern industrialization.  It's easy to say 'well, EUROPE did it' and dismiss the costs involved while ignoring that Europe's transition took place more than a century ago. There is a bit more to change in the US in this modern world...

-Pat

[KL27x]

Bfseechannel.

As long as you get some kick out of this, I am here for you. I will be here to represent the stupid American for you to condescend. I created Trump. That's all me. Destabilization of the Middle East? My plan. The #6 machine screw in your blender? I did that just to piss you off. Global warming? You guessed it. 

But after I switch to metric, you will have no one left to lord your kilo's over except Guyana. I'm sure that was never the issue, though. And you will eventually tell me what is really bothering you. I'm listening. Let it out.

[Mr. Scram]

This is perfect example. The problem is not with imperial. The problem is that these Americans are stupid.
If we all conform to one system, these americans do not become smarter. They can just more easily hide their incompetence.

I work with other americans in designing PCBs and housings. I use imperial. He uses metric. Never once we ask another to use our units. We both offer to use the other's units, and we both decline. We have never had any mixup. If your american partner is stupid and you are so great, why not offer to use imperial yourself? This is only a problem when both parties are incompetent. In this case you hire a "translator." Maybe one of you has an 8 yr old kid who can help you out. The 8 yr old learned this more recently and perhaps still remembers how to do a conversion.

To me imperial was more natural because of experience with breadboards and 0.1" headers. And also to visual trace width, now. I just know what is what, more naturally. But to anyone I work with I will gladly adapt if they want. It is not much more to me but hitting a menu option. But when working with actual physical objects and fitting, I think always in imperial. When something is tight or rubbing or off just a tad, I can tell by the feel how many thousandths of an inch to change it. A thousandth is something that is real. I can see a thous; I can feel down to probably half a thous. This is my calibration to the physical world. I will translate this to metric if my partner prefers it, no problem.

So far, we've had only one minor clarification to cover. And that had nothing to do with metric. FWIW, who the heck else here calls a radius a chamfer?

Various space agencies have had to deal with the same. You'd say those are pretty smart cookies.

[KL27x]

Various space agencies have had to deal with the same. You'd say those are pretty smart cookies.

1999 Mars Orbiter? The Polar Lander produced by the same NASA era also failed for a totally different reason. They were using different methodology trying to minimize costs.

That was 20 years ago, and they managed to land a rover on Mars that did ok since then. They managed to land a man on the moon 25 years prior to that. They managed to send a bunch of manned shuttle missions up into the black yonder.

Do you think NASA or JPL did anything different on those other successful missions other than to not make a critical mistake? Being serious, not sarcastic.

Those smart cookies did not care what units the software was coded in, as long as it was converted. Or something like that. And why would that change? The problem wasn't units; the problem was a human error. Do you think America changing its road signs will prevent this kind of error in the future? Do you think JPL engineers don't still use imperial (and metric?). I dunno? Maybe they erased imperial from their company, completely? Maybe not? Or do you think maybe they test the software and verify the results first before launching a rocket to Mars?

You might say if imperial did not exist, this kind of problem would not happen. True. Of all the things that could have been faulty in SOFTWARE, well, this is just one straw in a giant haystack. Maybe JPL makes their employees wear diapers and take away all sharp objects, now, too, so the geniuses have less things to worry about while getting a rocket all the way to frikkin Mars?

[vk6zgo]

What is the exact economic benefit of changing the units we measure our roads by from miles to km?   

I'll invert the question. What exact economic benefit did all other countries in the world see in measuring their roads in km instead of miles? Did they think they'd save on tires or fuel with that change?

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  You're trying to convince us to spend unknown (but surely ridiculous) amounts of money to replace every sign that indicates a speed or a distance, on every road in the entire United States.

I bet you that when you change a speed limit, you don't replace the whole sign, but instead just stick a new number over the old one.
1974 is a long time ago, & from memory, I think that was done in Oz, but maybe reflective stickers weren't quite up to it then,----we might have just replaced the oldest signs first, then progressively completed the others over years.
In any case, stickers is how you would do it now.

Another clever trick was to change each 5 mile increment of mileposts to an 8km increment, & remove the numbers from those in between.
People realised after a while that they didn't need posts every mile (or km).
We had those funny 8km posts for many years after '74.

 [ I don't need to justify NOT doing it, YOU need to convince me why we should.  All the drivers here think in miles and feet.  Speedometers are primarily marked in miles per hour. Odometers register miles, not km. In addition to replacing all the signage, do you suggest that everyone get their odometers replaced?  Re-gearing them won't work as that will bugger up the speed indication.  (Not that re-gearing them is really any more sensible)

Most people would do what we did in Australia----do a quick correction in their heads.
35 mph is fractionally less than 60kmh, 50mph is pretty much spot on 80kmh, 55mph is just a bit less than 90kmh, 60mph is just a fraction under 100kmh, & 65mph is just a fraction under 110kmh.

The nearest Metric speed to the existing Imperial ones was chosen in each case, so drivers of cars with "legacy" speedos would still be able to drive within the limits.

A few people bought new "stick on" labels to fit into their speedos, others bought gadgets to gear the whole thing up, but the latter weren't at all satisfactory, as the higher speeds were now all crushed up at the end of the scale.
As I said, above, most people didn't have to do anything, so they didn't.

Granted in many newer vehicles with electronic indicators it may just be a code change, but it's still a trip in for an otherwise unnecessary service, and there are more than 270 million cars in the US.  Do you expect every driver to pay an additional $50+ dollars per vehicle to get this done, too? 

As I pointed out, it was unnecesssary to modify speedos in 1974, so why is it so essential, now?
You can't tell me that American drivers are stupider than Australian ones!

In my opinion at least (and, from what I gather, the opinions of at least several others here in this thread), you have utterly failed to present a worthy reason.  "Because everyone else is" is not a very convincing justification to spend unknown billions of dollars to change something THAT IS WORKING JUST FINE FOR US!!

It doesn't matter what the number system is, as long as everything matches.   The distance could be miles, or kilometers, or furlongs or kilosmoots, it wouldn't matter.   I'm not doing engineering with those figures.

So you drive a motorized vehicle along a road and you think you're not doing engineering.

Are you suggesting that drivers ARE doing engineering?  If not, what do you even mean by this statement?

Well, whoever builds and maintains the road is.

So?  What difference do the units used when the road is constructed make to the end user?  I drove up to Canada a few years ago.  I really didn't notice any difference in the roads, and my American vehicle had no issues whatsoever traveling on them.  Millions of people around the world plug their appliances and radios and computers into receptacles in the walls of their houses, and use those items as a matter of routine.  How many of them do you think have the foggiest notion of where the electricity comes from or how it gets to them?  Lots of engineering there, but no one really needs to know it in order to utilize the product.  Knowing the engineering involved in many things is completely unnecessary to USE said things.  Roads are among those things that don't require engineering knowledge to drive upon.

When I build a road in the US, I can use the meter. But then I have to give the distances in miles and clearances in feet and inches because the drivers will not understand that they can use the same unit that was used to build the road.

Yeah, and?  So what? 

And here we have the heart of the problem.  While the cost of replacing all of the non-metric street signs in America is trivial, the cost of replacing his brain dead, useless, totally antiquated US sourced products that he bought with beautiful metricated products, or the cost of moving back to some enlightened, forward thinking, economically advantaged part of the world is totally unreasonable.

Pardon me while I shed crocodile tears.

    

Maybe you think that, because the US still uses imperial units, they are automatically fashionable. But I can assure you they are not.

Nor is that what we think, as has been pointed out to you REPEATEDLY in this thread.  Are you truly incapable of grasping this, or are you being intentionally obtuse in order to continue making your arguments?

Outside the US, imperial is seen as deprecated, old-school, obsolete and, in many cases, a nuisance.

Then, once again, feel free not to buy or use any of our 'deprecated, old-school, obsolete, nuisance' things.  I think I can assure you that we will not shed many tears.

-Pat

[Cubdriver]

What is the exact economic benefit of changing the units we measure our roads by from miles to km?   

I'll invert the question. What exact economic benefit did all other countries in the world see in measuring their roads in km instead of miles? Did they think they'd save on tires or fuel with that change?

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  You're trying to convince us to spend unknown (but surely ridiculous) amounts of money to replace every sign that indicates a speed or a distance, on every road in the entire United States.

I bet you that when you change a speed limit, you don't replace the whole sign, but instead just stick a new number over the old one.
1974 is a long time ago, & from memory, I think that was done in Oz, but maybe reflective stickers weren't quite up to it then,----we might have just replaced the oldest signs first, then progressively completed the others over years.
In any case, stickers is how you would do it now.

Another clever trick was to change each 5 mile increment of mileposts to an 8km increment, & remove the numbers from those in between.
People realised after a while that they didn't need posts every mile (or km).
We had those funny 8km posts for many years after '74.

 [ I don't need to justify NOT doing it, YOU need to convince me why we should.  All the drivers here think in miles and feet.  Speedometers are primarily marked in miles per hour. Odometers register miles, not km. In addition to replacing all the signage, do you suggest that everyone get their odometers replaced?  Re-gearing them won't work as that will bugger up the speed indication.  (Not that re-gearing them is really any more sensible)

Most people would do what we did in Australia----do a quick correction in their heads.
35 mph is fractionally less than 60kmh, 50mph is pretty much spot on 80kmh, 55mph is just a bit less than 90kmh, 60mph is just a fraction under 100kmh, & 65mph is just a fraction under 110kmh.

The nearest Metric speed to the existing Imperial ones was chosen in each case, so drivers of cars with "legacy" speedos would still be able to drive within the limits.

A few people bought new "stick on" labels to fit into their speedos, others bought gadgets to gear the whole thing up, but the latter weren't at all satisfactory, as the higher speeds were now all crushed up at the end of the scale.
As I said, above, most people didn't have to do anything, so they didn't.

Granted in many newer vehicles with electronic indicators it may just be a code change, but it's still a trip in for an otherwise unnecessary service, and there are more than 270 million cars in the US.  Do you expect every driver to pay an additional $50+ dollars per vehicle to get this done, too? 

Well, you've suggested a slightly lower cost 'how'.  I still fail to see WHY the government should piss away billions in tax dollars (when they're already running horrific deficits) TO CHANGE SOMETHING THAT IS CURRENTLY WORKING.

As I pointed out, it was unnecesssary to modify speedos in 1974, so why is it so essential, now?
You can't tell me that American drivers are stupider than Australian ones!

Wanna bet?  Over here, it seems if you can fog a mirror seven times out of ten you can get a license.  There are some mind numbingly stupid people on the road.  (Though we do at least drive on the right side of it.  )

-Pat

[Cerebus]

As long as you get some kick out of this, I am here for you. I will be here to represent the stupid American for you to condescend. I created Trump. That's all me. Destabilization of the Middle East? My plan. The #6 machine screw in your blender? I did that just to piss you off. Global warming? You guessed it.

Oh, that's all down to you is it? C'mere and just have a little chat with me. Somewhere quiet. Lets go round the back of the barn... 

[KL27x]

As long as you get some kick out of this, I am here for you. I will be here to represent the stupid American for you to condescend. I created Trump. That's all me. Destabilization of the Middle East? My plan. The #6 machine screw in your blender? I did that just to piss you off. Global warming? You guessed it.

Oh, that's all down to you is it? C'mere and just have a little chat with me. Somewhere quiet. Lets go round the back of the barn... 

Oh, yes, I can't wait for it. To get you even hotter, please don't forget I created Monsanto to make your country barren and fertile. I drop smart bombs on your weddings from an air conditioned control center in california. I killed all the bees.

So when we get back to your private love nest, I should be disappointed if you are going to lecture me on using the wrong road signs.

[Mr. Scram]

1999 Mars Orbiter? The Polar Lander produced by the same NASA era also failed for a totally different reason. They were using different methodology trying to minimize costs.

That was 20 years ago, and they managed to land a rover on Mars that did ok since then. They managed to land a man on the moon 25 years prior to that. They managed to send a bunch of manned shuttle missions up into the black yonder.

Do you think NASA or JPL did anything different on those other successful missions other than to not make a critical mistake? Being serious, not sarcastic.

Those smart cookies did not care what units the software was coded in, as long as it was converted. Or something like that. And why would that change? The problem wasn't units; the problem was a human error. Do you think America changing its road signs will prevent this kind of error in the future? Do you think JPL engineers don't still use imperial (and metric?). I dunno? Maybe they erased imperial from their company, completely? Maybe not? Or do you think maybe they test the software and verify the results first before launching a rocket to Mars?

You might say if imperial did not exist, this kind of problem would not happen. True. Of all the things that could have been faulty in SOFTWARE, well, this is just one straw in a giant haystack. Maybe JPL makes their employees wear diapers and take away all sharp objects, now, too, so the geniuses have less things to worry about while getting a rocket all the way to frikkin Mars?

I was referring to manufactured components for an international cooperation that were supposed to fit together but didn't but the Mars Orbiter would be another example. When the best and brightest get it wrong when it counts you have to wonder how the rest of the world is doing.

[KL27x]

Just one small thought for you before I head to the office.

Before you usher in the new era where people will no longer miss their test questions due to a unit conversion error....

.....Please stop to ponder the number of megatons of nuclear ICBM's that America has which were designed in imperial and may contain imperial in the software. Details are probably classified. But America trusted ft-lbs to get a man to the moon without blowing him up on an international stage. And these weapons were built during the 1980's cold war era under Reagan, shortly after. So do you think the programming constant for the payload weight is in kg's or in lb's?

In some way you could say America has a duty to be fluent in both systems, legally and academically.

[Mr. Scram]

Just one small thought for you before I head to the office.

Before you usher in the new era where people will no longer miss their test questions due to a unit conversion error....

.....Please stop to ponder the number of megatons of nuclear ICBM's that America has which were designed in imperial and may contain imperial in the software. Details are probably classified. But America trusted ft-lbs to get a man to the moon without blowing him up on an international stage. And these weapons were built during the 1980's cold war era under Reagan, shortly after. So do you think the programming constant for the payload weight is in kg's or in lb's?

In some way you could say America has a duty to be fluent in both systems, legally and academically.

The rockets that went to the Moon were metric internally.

[KL27x]

^True.
The astronauts used imperial, exclusively.
The instruments read out in english units. They did calculations in english units. They input english units into the computer.

Mission Control used both units for various things.

The computer code used metric, internally.

And 30 years later, during the Mars Orbiter mission, the reverse happened. JPL was using software that used english units and failed to convert them into metric. English units are still used in airplaney things, apparently, to this day.

All this time imperial and metric have both been used by NASA, and I have no reason to think that has changed. Either system is just a tool and converting between them is not black magic. It is black and white. If NASA rocket scientists find occasion where it's convenient to use english units, then I reckon they will.

I was referring to manufactured components for an international cooperation that were supposed to fit together but didn't

Changing road signs is neither here nor there and the road signs are the only major thing that "going metric" will change. The conversion of metric dimensions to imperial by machine shops will continue to happen because the machines are threaded in imperial. And mistakes will still occasionally occur. C'est la vie, right? 

[Tepe]

English units are still used in airplaney things, apparently, to this day.

Wasn't always like that:

[HighVoltage]

When I moved to the USA in the late 80s I met a really nice mechanical engineer and when I told him that I had worked for a big German car manufacturer as an engineer, he asked me:

"Are they really using metric dimensions to design and build engines in Germany?"

And when I replied with yes, he would not believe me.
In his mind, an engine could only be built "correctly" by using imperial units.

[vk6zgo]

What is the exact economic benefit of changing the units we measure our roads by from miles to km?   

I'll invert the question. What exact economic benefit did all other countries in the world see in measuring their roads in km instead of miles? Did they think they'd save on tires or fuel with that change?

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  You're trying to convince us to spend unknown (but surely ridiculous) amounts of money to replace every sign that indicates a speed or a distance, on every road in the entire United States.

I bet you that when you change a speed limit, you don't replace the whole sign, but instead just stick a new number over the old one.
1974 is a long time ago, & from memory, I think that was done in Oz, but maybe reflective stickers weren't quite up to it then,----we might have just replaced the oldest signs first, then progressively completed the others over years.
In any case, stickers is how you would do it now.

Another clever trick was to change each 5 mile increment of mileposts to an 8km increment, & remove the numbers from those in between.
People realised after a while that they didn't need posts every mile (or km).
We had those funny 8km posts for many years after '74.

 [ I don't need to justify NOT doing it, YOU need to convince me why we should.  All the drivers here think in miles and feet.  Speedometers are primarily marked in miles per hour. Odometers register miles, not km. In addition to replacing all the signage, do you suggest that everyone get their odometers replaced?  Re-gearing them won't work as that will bugger up the speed indication.  (Not that re-gearing them is really any more sensible)

Most people would do what we did in Australia----do a quick correction in their heads.
35 mph is fractionally less than 60kmh, 50mph is pretty much spot on 80kmh, 55mph is just a bit less than 90kmh, 60mph is just a fraction under 100kmh, & 65mph is just a fraction under 110kmh.

The nearest Metric speed to the existing Imperial ones was chosen in each case, so drivers of cars with "legacy" speedos would still be able to drive within the limits.

A few people bought new "stick on" labels to fit into their speedos, others bought gadgets to gear the whole thing up, but the latter weren't at all satisfactory, as the higher speeds were now all crushed up at the end of the scale.
As I said, above, most people didn't have to do anything, so they didn't.

Granted in many newer vehicles with electronic indicators it may just be a code change, but it's still a trip in for an otherwise unnecessary service, and there are more than 270 million cars in the US.  Do you expect every driver to pay an additional $50+ dollars per vehicle to get this done, too? 

Well, you've suggested a slightly lower cost 'how'.  I still fail to see WHY the government should piss away billions in tax dollars (when they're already running horrific deficits) TO CHANGE SOMETHING THAT IS CURRENTLY WORKING.

I dunno, I've already saved US motorists 13.5 billion dollars, compared to  your initial estimate, & even allowing for the outlier cases, you should be able to save at least 50% by using stickers  instead of completely replacing all your signs .
Many could be done with two guys in a pickup truck with a stepladder.

In any case, each State will already have provision in their Budget for sign replacement, so some of the cost could be covered by that.(if, of course, such signs are a State responsibility like they are in Oz).
It doesn't have to be done immediately, anyway.

The whole cost of Metrication in Australia was hardly a "blip" on the curve showing the total outgoings including other, usually recurring, expenses.

At this point, you are perhaps thinking "Australia has a much smaller population-- it won't scale".
Maybe, but you have a much larger economy, & many more people to do the acual work.

As I pointed out, it was unnecesssary to modify speedos in 1974, so why is it so essential, now?
You can't tell me that American drivers are stupider than Australian ones!

Wanna bet?  Over here, it seems if you can fog a mirror seven times out of ten you can get a license.  There are some mind numbingly stupid people on the road.  (Though we do at least drive on the right side of it.  )

-Pat

I dunno, some Australian drivers are "plenty dumb"!   

At the end of the day, few people really care if you go Metric or stay "Customary", but arguments that can be substantially refuted don't make your case much more rational.

[Mr. Scram]

You don't have to replace everything in a big bang scenario. Some things are more convenient to replace right away but most can simply be replaced when they needed to be replaced anyway.