why is the US not Metric

[rstofer]

Your second point is just plain wrong.
In a Unit System Nationality is Irrelevant.
<snip>
Plus we are in the year 2019, not '69.

Actually, it is about sentiment.  How do people feel about changing to a standard controlled elsewhere, given that we already have a system that we think we control (we really don't due to international conventions on unit conversions)?  Do we really want our system of units controlled by the French?  The vast majority of people, if you asked such a question, would say "No!".  Think about NIH on a massive scale.  It doesn't have to make sense, it's just the way people may feel.  I have no dog in the hunt, either system works for me but, day to day, it's customary units.  When I help my grandson with his college courses it will likely be metric.

There is no compelling reason to change.  Among other things, we don't have to deal with 'g' when converting between pounds force and pounds mass at the Earth's surface which is where most of us live.  'Kips' is a perfectly fine unit for structural engineering and I doubt it will ever change.  In the electrical business, I suspect we will continue with AWG and MCM for a very long time.  Changing units provides no benefit.

There is simply no compelling reason to change that will get the attention of the proverbial 'person on the street'.  We simply don't care what the rest of the world does.

It's all about sentiment!

[rstofer]

You could also explain the issue as a matter of elitism.  The elite use metric and the last thing they want is for the commoners to understand what they're talking about so there is no real push to convert.  Those who need to use metric can and will.  Those who don't need it will never convert.

No sir, the common American will never get a grip on metric. 

You're looking at the wrong unit.  Coca Cola is purchased in units of cans or bottles as singles, 6-packs or flats.  When I make a beer run, it is for cases or six-packs, not ounces versus liters.  Even cases varies depending on the size of the box.  So, I buy extra.  Some people buy beer in terms of kegs.  Who cares how many liters are in a keg?  Is it cold?  Can I keep it cold?  Have I got a tapper?

It's all about units!  Beer is NOT measured in liters!  Or ounces!

[tooki]

Your second point is just plain wrong.
In a Unit System Nationality is Irrelevant.
<snip>
Plus we are in the year 2019, not '69.

Actually, it is about sentiment.  How do people feel about changing to a standard controlled elsewhere, given that we already have a system that we think we control (we really don't due to international conventions on unit conversions)?  Do we really want our system of units controlled by the French?  The vast majority of people, if you asked such a question, would say "No!".  Think about NIH on a massive scale.  It doesn't have to make sense, it's just the way people may feel.  I have no dog in the hunt, either system works for me but, day to day, it's customary units.  When I help my grandson with his college courses it will likely be metric.

There is no compelling reason to change.  Among other things, we don't have to deal with 'g' when converting between pounds force and pounds mass at the Earth's surface which is where most of us live.  'Kips' is a perfectly fine unit for structural engineering and I doubt it will ever change.  In the electrical business, I suspect we will continue with AWG and MCM for a very long time.  Changing units provides no benefit.

There is simply no compelling reason to change that will get the attention of the proverbial 'person on the street'.  We simply don't care what the rest of the world does.

It's all about sentiment!

Ok, first off, lay off the French. France may have originated the metric system, but it is categorically wrong to claim they control it. It is as international as anything could be. Moreover, we already use it, insofar as all the US customary units were redefined with metric units long ago. (E.G. the formal definition of the inch is “25.4mm” now.)

What you are correct about is the US resisting change until there’s a tangible benefit. The metrication nuts don’t seem to understand that it’s dumb to spend money and take on risk to make a change with little or no benefit. As you said, where the benefits are tangible, we DID switch.

A good retort would be: if changing is so easy, then how come Europe hasn’t standardized on one AC socket?  🤔

[tooki]

You're looking at the wrong unit.  Coca Cola is purchased in units of cans or bottles as singles, 6-packs or flats.  When I make a beer run, it is for cases or six-packs, not ounces versus liters.  Even cases varies depending on the size of the box.  So, I buy extra.  Some people buy beer in terms of kegs.  Who cares how many liters are in a keg?  Is it cold?  Can I keep it cold?  Have I got a tapper?

It's all about units!  Beer is NOT measured in liters!  Or ounces!

I assure you, it is. There are multiple sizes of cans and kegs, and breweries and bars most definitely need to know what they’re trading.

[CatalinaWOW]

Posts 181 to 184 capture the essence perfectly.  The vast majority of people world wide don't care what unit system is used.  The one they grew up with works fine, and they have no reason to change.  Those who buy, sell or communicate internationally find it inconvenient to deal with multiple systems.  Most would prefer the system they grew up with.  The metric system has some minor intrinsic advantages, and has gained the advantage in number of users and will probably, sooner or later take over everywhere.  And worldwide there are bigots who can't mind their own business and demand that everyone do it their way.  In a hundred years the measurement system war will likely be completely over, but those folks will still be complaining about something.

[boffin]

and has gained the advantage in number of users and will probably, sooner or later take over everywhere. 

190 of 193 member states of the UN are Metric

[rstofer]

No sir, the common American will never get a grip on metric. 

I'm missing the point (again)...

The bottles are in fractional liters but the cans are in integer fluid ounces. For the convenience of the units challenged, the 355 ml equivalent is in parenthesis on the can.  Got one right here in front of me... 12 FL OZ (355 mL). I never buy the large bottles because they go flat before I can finish them.

When we buy supplies for the barbeques, we buy beer in cases.  We don't look at ounces, we don't count bottles, we simply buy a case or two of "Miller Genuine Draft" in a cardboard box.  Cost per ounce isn't even a consideration.

Simply put:  We aren't going to change, we don't care what the rest of the world does and nobody is going to make us change.  We're doing fine...

These threads always degenerate in the same way.  I'm surprised this one has stayed open as long as it has.

[rsjsouza]

All jokes aside, an interesting thing is the difference between e.g. US horsepower and German Pferdestärke (literally “horsepower”, but measured differently).

Similar thing with the Brazilian "cavalo vapor" or CV: slightly less powerful: 735W.

Does that literally mean “steam horse”?

Yes. The big passenger ships used to be also called "vapor" as they were steam powered. That was probably the inspiration for the name.

[Simon]

To cut to the chase, metric is eurocentric and the US doesn't do eurocentric.  Worse, the standards are French and we definitely don't do French.  We will never convert on a national basis.
 
You could also explain the issue as a matter of elitism.  The elite use metric and the last thing they want is for the commoners to understand what they're talking about so there is no real push to convert.  Those who need to use metric can and will.  Those who don't need it will never convert.

that is what makes your personally backward. I don't know about the rest of America.

[CatalinaWOW]

I'm missing the point (again)...

The bottles are in fractional liters but the cans are in integer fluid ounces. For the convenience of the units challenged, the 355 ml equivalent is in parenthesis on the can.  Got one right here in front of me... 12 FL OZ (355 mL).

Aren't the larger PET bottles sized and labeled in liters, as at Walmart? Do they even show the fluid ounce equivalent? From what little I have seen, Americans are buying them because they find them a good size – and have grown used to them being so many liters.

rstofer is absolutely correct on this one.  The unit of measure on those large PET bottles is the bottle.  We don't buy x bottles to get y liters of soda.  We don't say we need y liters to fill z 0.5 liter glasses.  We buy the number of bottles that will fit the refrigerator or cabinet or budget.  When that runs out, or nearly runs out we buy more.  And I suspect that is the way people operate worldwide.  The guy designing the bottle filler may care about the units,  and other people in the Fab chain may care, though here in the US the recipe is likely to be in traditional units.

This behavior has been exploited in the US where almost all food is labeled in both metric and traditional units.  A product that was originally in a nice round number of traditional units is resized down to a nice even metric number without a change in price.  Later, after that is absorbed the product is resized again to the next smaller even traditional units.  This process has been repeated in some products until they are half their original size.

[rstofer]

To cut to the chase, metric is eurocentric and the US doesn't do eurocentric.  Worse, the standards are French and we definitely don't do French.  We will never convert on a national basis.
 
You could also explain the issue as a matter of elitism.  The elite use metric and the last thing they want is for the commoners to understand what they're talking about so there is no real push to convert.  Those who need to use metric can and will.  Those who don't need it will never convert.

that is what makes your personally backward. I don't know about the rest of America.

Walk down the street, next time you're here, and ask people what they think.  You might be surprised.  All is not kumbaya between the people in the US and their opinion of various other countries.  Don't spend your time talking to the people in the mega-population centers, get out to the fly-over states and see what the people really think.

I don't think my comments will be far off the mark.  There has to be some reason that metrification is another "third rail" of politics.  It's not like we don't know about metric, we just don't care.  And politicians don't dare bring it up!  Why do you suppose that is?  I see protests on TV every night.  People in favor of this, people opposed to that but I have NEVER seen a protest in favor of metrification.  Hmm...

It's pretty clear I am a redneck except, well, I did go to school (MSEE) and I did work in Silicon Valley for 25 years and I worked as an expat with specialized skills building a semiconductor plant in Singapore.  I seemed to get along with metric just fine.  And now I know what a "green card" is!

The ONLY unit of measure I care about today is the Dow Jones Industrial Average.  Those of us on fixed income and retirement accounts rely on an increasing DJIA.  We are forced, beginning in the year we reach 70-1/2, to withdraw about 8% each year and we expect, no, we demand, that the market make it up!  Good news!  The DJIA is up over 34% over since the inauguration.  For old people, that's a really big deal.  There are a lot of old people in the US.  And we vote!

The rest of this stuff?  Totally unimportant!

[rsjsouza]

This behavior has been exploited in the US where almost all food is labeled in both metric and traditional units.  A product that was originally in a nice round number of traditional units is resized down to a nice even metric number without a change in price.  Later, after that is absorbed the product is resized again to the next smaller even traditional units.  This process has been repeated in some products until they are half their original size.

That's inflation for you. None of that price hike but yet the price is hiked!

In Brasil a box of laundry detergent always had 1kg. Many years ago, the manufacturers surreptitiously reduced it to 900g and it was clearly stated at the bottom right corner the new weight - this went on for months (if not years) without people realizing that. Then a customer realized the farce and fed it to the news outlets - lots of people (including myself) found boxes of the stuff bought months earlier with the 900g clearly stamped there. During the whole brouhaha, some of the brands labeled their boxes with a capital 1kg and brandished as if they were the trustworthy ones.

[rstofer]

and has gained the advantage in number of users and will probably, sooner or later take over everywhere. 

190 of 193 member states of the UN are Metric

Outstanding!  Yet the largest economy in the world isn't metric.  I wonder if causality applies...
For all the discussion above, and elsewhere, nothing is going to change.  The US will never convert and folks might as well get used to it.

[Simon]

It's more a case of what everyone is used to. I can work with eithor mostly for what I need.

[james_s]

rstofer is absolutely correct on this one.  The unit of measure on those large PET bottles is the bottle.  We don't buy x bottles to get y liters of soda.  We don't say we need y liters to fill z 0.5 liter glasses.  We buy the number of bottles that will fit the refrigerator or cabinet or budget.  When that runs out, or nearly runs out we buy more.  And I suspect that is the way people operate worldwide.  The guy designing the bottle filler may care about the units,  and other people in the Fab chain may care, though here in the US the recipe is likely to be in traditional units.

This behavior has been exploited in the US where almost all food is labeled in both metric and traditional units.  A product that was originally in a nice round number of traditional units is resized down to a nice even metric number without a change in price.  Later, after that is absorbed the product is resized again to the next smaller even traditional units.  This process has been repeated in some products until they are half their original size.

I don't speak for everyone, but people I know refer to the bottles as "two liter bottles" (or the smaller one liter size). Ultimately no, most people don't care what unit it is and nobody says they need "10 liters of Pepsi for the party" but anyone who has bought a bottle of soda will know about how big a liter is. The cans are for whatever reason measured in ounces but those really are just referred to as a "can" of this or that, sizes other than 12oz are rare.

It could be Bushels or Pecks or any other arbitrary unit though and nobody would really care, as long as it was consistent.

The thing that bugs me are "gallon" containers of icecream that through the magic of shrinking food products to obfuscate price increases are nowhere near a gallon anymore. That drives me insane because while I fully understand the need to increase prices, when someone tries to hide it like that I feel like I'm being cheated.

[Simon]

Now is that a proper imperial gallon or a whimpy american one?

[james_s]

Outstanding!  Yet the largest economy in the world isn't metric.  I wonder if causality applies...
For all the discussion above, and elsewhere, nothing is going to change.  The US will never convert and folks might as well get used to it.

I bet we will eventually, at least to a greater degree than we already have. Younger generations are more familiar with metric and have less attachment to the imperial units. Manufacturing is globalized, with less and less physical goods produced in the US there is less of an issue converting. Even a lot of domestic products now use metric fasteners. I don't really care one way or another but I would not be the least bit surprised to see more and more of the goods we buy specified in metric units as the world market increases and there is less and less reason to cater specifically to the American market. I would bet that very few people would refuse to buy a TV simply because the screen is only measured in centimeters vs inches on the box. Ultimately we will probably end up like Canada or the UK with an odd mix of metric and other units applied to different things depending on context, and people will get by just fine.

[james_s]

Now is that a proper imperial gallon or a whimpy american one?

Neither! I honestly don't remember what the true size is anymore but it's significantly smaller than the already small American gallon. How we ended up with two units called a "gallon" that are not the same size I will likely never grasp. I mean pick one or the other, I don't care, but let's not have both.

[rstofer]

We seem to be getting plywood that is not only in metric for thickness but also in exterior dimensions.  No problem!  I just set my 5 HP tablesaw to inches and cut it to fit.  The sheets are a little bigger than 4'x8' as I recall.  Anyway, instant conversion!

But, still, I have to use a metric router bit to cut the dado.  No worries, I can afford router bits!

I agree, most industry will slowly convert over the next 100 years or so.  Those that do a lot of off-shoring will convert sooner rather than later.  Things measured in bushels probably won't change at all.  Pork bellies will still sell in 40,000 pound frozen slabs known as a 'unit'.  Why in the world would farmers care about metric?  There land is measured in acres - thousands of them.

[soldar]

It's not just the US.

Virtually every Japanese camera made in the past 40 years has a tripod socket with a 1/4-20 thread.  That's 1/4 inch, 20 threads per inch. 

Why?  So they can fit on Italian and French tripods, which use 1/4-20 threads.

The original tripod thread was 1/4-20 British thread (55º) and then it shifted to 1/4-20 UTS American (60º) which is close enough that screws with one thread will work with receptacle threads of the other standard.

So the reason is that historically the British started with 1/4-20 and that spread to the rest of the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripod_(photography)#Screw_thread

[tooki]

rstofer is absolutely correct on this one.  The unit of measure on those large PET bottles is the bottle.  We don't buy x bottles to get y liters of soda.  We don't say we need y liters to fill z 0.5 liter glasses.  We buy the number of bottles that will fit the refrigerator or cabinet or budget.  When that runs out, or nearly runs out we buy more.  And I suspect that is the way people operate worldwide....

There is a fair amount of that in Germany, people buy another bottle or another box, but many also look at the specific price (euros/liter, euros/100 g, etc.). It is shown with the end price, to help compare other brands and sizes. I get annoyed when a manufacturer reduces the amount in a box or bottle. In response, I weigh each serving on an industrial balance, and proportionally reduce the serving size. Tit for tat.

What I find so annoying about the unit price labeling is that they’ll deliberately use different units on different products, e.g. one brand of ketchup might be in €/l and the other will be in €/kg.

I was at ikea the other day, and they have frozen Christmas hams in stock. They’re supposed to be sold by weight, but the shelf tag said CHF 29.90/m. (I mentioned it to the manager, and he joked that they slice it very, very thin!    )

[vk6zgo]

We seem to be getting plywood that is not only in metric for thickness but also in exterior dimensions.  No problem!  I just set my 5 HP tablesaw to inches and cut it to fit.  The sheets are a little bigger than 4'x8' as I recall.  Anyway, instant conversion!

But, still, I have to use a metric router bit to cut the dado.  No worries, I can afford router bits!

I agree, most industry will slowly convert over the next 100 years or so.  Those that do a lot of off-shoring will convert sooner rather than later.  Things measured in bushels probably won't change at all.  Pork bellies will still sell in 40,000 pound frozen slabs known as a 'unit'.  Why in the world would farmers care about metric?  There land is measured in acres - thousands of them.

In VK6, some "farmer's" land is measured in square kilometres--------100's of 'em!
A lot of farm products in this country are measured in kg, & large quantities in "tonnes", which are "near as dammit" the same as Imperial "tons"!

The biggest bonus for trade in Metrication of the old ex "Imperial " countries, is that things like "44 gallon(Imp)" drums  become simply 200 litre drums, so there is only one conversion needed when you are selling  to the USA. (&, obviously none for European & other Metric countries)

Metric to USA conversion tables, calculator functions, & phone "apps" are a lot more common than Imp/USA
ones.

That said, I remember seeing both US & Imp capacity painted on drums when I was a kid----probably as a result of WW2, where interoperability between US, Australian, & British forces was vital.

[CatalinaWOW]

rstofer is absolutely correct on this one.  The unit of measure on those large PET bottles is the bottle.  We don't buy x bottles to get y liters of soda.  We don't say we need y liters to fill z 0.5 liter glasses.  We buy the number of bottles that will fit the refrigerator or cabinet or budget.  When that runs out, or nearly runs out we buy more.  And I suspect that is the way people operate worldwide....

There is a fair amount of that in Germany, people buy another bottle or another box, but many also look at the specific price (euros/liter, euros/100 g, etc.). It is shown with the end price, to help compare other brands and sizes. I get annoyed when a manufacturer reduces the amount in a box or bottle. In response, I weigh each serving on an industrial balance, and proportionally reduce the serving size. Tit for tat.

Unit pricing is required many if not most places in the US.  And that also is exploited for marketing purposes.  One brand will be price per ounce, another price per gram and a third price per kg and a fourth price per pound.  The metric sizes are easy to convert but the first impression still has impact.   

[bsfeechannel]

Outstanding!  Yet the largest economy in the world isn't metric.  I wonder if causality applies...

The other economies are not so large because they spent all their money converting to the metric system.

Jokes aside, let's dismiss some myths.

People have to have in mind that the first country to abandon their customary units in favor of something less insane were the French themselves. Other countries thought it to be a good idea and voluntarily adhered. So, the French didn't impose their customary system over the other countries.

People who like to raise the "perils" of converting to metric often cite the Revolta do Quebra-Quilos (something like the "break-the-kilos" revolt in English) in 1872 in Brazil. First, it happened in a specific region of the country, and the reason for the revolt was that in some towns the old standards were suddenly banned and people were forced to immediately buy or rent new certified metric scales, weights and containers. This, together with other problems, sparked the revolt.

So the rage was not against the metric system, but against the way it was done.

The other myth is that the metric system is "eurocentric". Countries that have adopted the metric system outside Europe don't have that sentiment. Metric is international. You can buy something from a distant country, and if a screw breaks, you can find it locally. You don't have to import it from a distant land just because of their whimsical standard. People don't even think of France when they use the system. It is so ingrained in the everyday life that I guess that most don't have the slightest clue that the French started it two centuries ago. I hope that I don't hurt any French pride here, but the truth is that the French are irrelevant for the system now, since the whole world took it over.

In short, no one gets less American for going metric.

[bsfeechannel]

The US will never convert and folks might as well get used to it.

I bet we will eventually, at least to a greater degree than we already have.

I raise the bet.