Why does the US provide all critical electronic design knowledge to the world?

[coppice]

"Backdoors on the chip"


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies

I thought that claim turned out to be BS.

[pcprogrammer]

Xilinx XC4028XLA, tech from 1999. 

Edit: The little weasel has deleted some of his posts, among one with a picture that showed a PCB with a Xilinx XC4028XLA on it.

[tatel]

assuming that Russian kamikaze drones use the same MCU as those used in Bosch refrigerators, it becomes clear how "fantastic" it is to give the technology directly in exchange for money, It also reveals how practical Russian engineers are

D. Quixote's brain dried after reading so many novels about knights errant. But your's evidently dried after watching TV so much. Just make yourself a favor and throw the TV out the window.

[tatel]

I absolutely agree. As far as I can tell, countries outside of the West have zero respect for the West's intellectual property. Of course China rips off Western IP!

They also have no respect for the West's regulations and safety standards. Watch Big Clive to see how blatantly and happily the Chinese will stamp the CE mark and any other standards marks on anything, with literally zero regard for safety or actual compliance.

You can not assign human qualities to a country, but it's as if China has no conscience.

Chinese IP: Paper, compass, powder, and so on and on and on... when did the UK pay the chinese for their intellectual property? By the way, you could also pay to us basques. You copied your ships from us in the 15th century, look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newport_Ship. These things were as secret as todays F35s (but they worked fine) Also you didn't know how to hunt whales until some basques were hired. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bay,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador

My point is: IP wasn't a thing until english speaking oligarchs decided they needed a way to remain rich and enforced that idea with weapons. The very same weapons that were previously used to steal IP (and anything else) from others. It looks now that these weapons made by rotten oligarchs are becoming obsolete, thus that IP rules couldn't be enforced in the near future. Not a so bad thing. I wonder what Wilbur Wright would say about IP laws after knowing anyone with enough money could aid Curtiss to manufacture airplanes violating his patent.

And please don't speak about China conscience. Each time I have a problem with some Ali seller, I tell him I know I'm just a white man, but please realize I'm the kind of white man that traded with China from the 15th to the 19th centuries and never occurred to us we could pay our purchases with opium. Works wonders each time. Where was british conscience back then?

[tatel]

I'm talking about China the country. A country with one of the most oppressive regimes in the world; a country with an appalling human rights record.

 

Yeah, too much western TV. What you need, my friend, what you need, my son, it's a holliday in Cambodia... or in Gaza right now, or in south africa in the Boer wars when concentration camps where invented, or in Kenya where MauMau were emasculated in interrogation, or in India where you blew rebels firing guns with them tied to the muzzle, etc, etc.

[tooki]

"Backdoors on the chip"


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies

I thought that claim turned out to be BS.

There are tons of examples of chips  that are open to the outside world via Ethernet, including Intel. I have seen many news and academic articles after 2000. Whether it is a conspiracy theory or not is up to the reader to believe.

No, it isn’t. Forget generalizations.

The specific instance you posted a link about has been discredited. Nobody has ever been able to corroborate even a single one of the specific claims in that article. If there were special components added to those boards, someone else would have been able to acquire such a board and find said special components. In the tech journalism world, that article single-handedly ruined Bloomberg’s reputation.

[pcprogrammer]

I have photographic evidence of this, don't be so sure of yourself

Deep fake ones   

Edit: The quoted post has been deleted along with some other posts of the member, claiming things about back doors. Luckily tooki quoted that one post.

[coppice]

The specific instance you posted a link about has been discredited. Nobody has ever been able to corroborate even a single one of the specific claims in that article. If there were special components added to those boards, someone else would have been able to acquire such a board and find said special components. In the tech journalism world, that article single-handedly ruined Bloomberg’s reputation.

That specific example was fake. However, I know multiple examples where silicon has been compromised. The ones I know of were not security related. They were commercial things. However, they could just as easily have been security compromises, if that was the tamperer's goal. Few people know about these examples, as nobody who was a victim wants the failure to be known about. It could have reputational consequences. I'm certainly not going to detail them. Overall there must be a lot of engineers out there, who have worked in silicon vendors, who have seen an example or two like I've seen, that show what someone determined could achieve. The key reason TSMC got so big was not technology. It was a commitment to uncompromising integrity from day one. Even there, it looks like people have left TSMC to go to other foundries, and taken things with them. Many foundries have a poor track record for screwing around with their own customer's IP. It can be a very leaky industry if you aren't careful.

[SteveThackery]

I'm talking about China the country. A country with one of the most oppressive regimes in the world; a country with an appalling human rights record.

 

Yeah, too much western TV. What you need, my friend, what you need, my son, it's a holliday in Cambodia... or in Gaza right now, or in south africa in the Boer wars when concentration camps where invented, or in Kenya where MauMau were emasculated in interrogation, or in India where you blew rebels firing guns with them tied to the muzzle, etc, etc.

This is known as "What about-ism".  All human beings used to be savages, and gradually, over the millennia and the centuries, humans became more and more civilised. Progress was patchy, and several times progress went backwards.

Like all countries - including China - Britain has a dark past. But what matters right now is whether Britain has a dark present. The present is the only thing that is important, because none of us can undo the past. And no, Britain does not have a dark present. Britain embodies the principles of freedom, equality, democracy, the rule of law, freedom of expression. Yes, it is flawed and imperfect, but those are its principles.

In contrast China right now is imprisoning it's own citizens just for expressing disagreement with the government. Britain doesn't do that. China subjects the Uyghurs to mass imprisonment and the systematic destruction of the Uyghurs' racial and cultural identity.* Britain doesn't do that.

I won't go on - this is not a political forum, but my conviction remains as strong as ever: the Chinese state oppresses its own citizens, and oppresses Uyghurs and Tibetans even more. The Chinese state makes no effort to stop the widespread faking of products designed in Japan or the West, nor the theft of intellectual property. The Chinese government is explicitly opposed to the freedoms enjoyed by citizens in the West.

Because of those policies I believe that the Chinese state is a force of evil in the world, and one which imposes severe threats to Western values and freedoms.

So, my dear @tatel, mock and laugh as much as you like. My skin is plenty thick enough. And when you've finished, read the following. If you think Wikipedia is biased, check out the extensive references (I've provided a link for you). See if you can keep an open mind - you might gain some new insights. And if you have any human compassion inside you, prepare to be horrified.

------

From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China?wprov=sfla1

 In 2014, the Chinese government announced a "people's war on terror". Since then, Uyghurs in Xinjiang have been affected by extensive controls and restrictions which the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and the Chinese government has imposed upon their religious, cultural, economic and social lives. In order to forcibly assimilate them, the government has arbitrarily detained more than an estimated one million Uyghurs in internment camps. Human Rights Watch says that the camps have been used to indoctrinate Uyghurs and other Muslims since 2017.

Leaked Chinese government operating procedures state that the main feature of the camps is to ensure adherence to CCP ideology, with the inmates being continuously held captive in the camps for a minimum of 12 months depending on their performance on Chinese ideology tests. The New York Times has reported inmates are required to "sing hymns praising the Chinese Communist Party and write 'self-criticism' essays," and that prisoners are also subjected to physical and verbal abuse by prison guards. Chinese officials have sometimes assigned to monitor the families of current inmates, and women have been detained due to actions by their sons or husbands.

Other policies have included forced labor, suppression of Uyghur religious practices, political indoctrination, severe ill-treatment, forced sterilization, forced contraception, and forced abortion. According to German researcher Adrian Zenz, hundreds of thousands of children have been forcibly separated from their parents and sent to boarding schools.

[tatel]

I'm talking about China the country. A country with one of the most oppressive regimes in the world; a country with an appalling human rights record.

 

Yeah, too much western TV. What you need, my friend, what you need, my son, it's a holliday in Cambodia... or in Gaza right now, or in south africa in the Boer wars when concentration camps where invented, or in Kenya where MauMau were emasculated in interrogation, or in India where you blew rebels firing guns with them tied to the muzzle, etc, etc.

This is known as "What about-ism".  All human beings used to be savages, and gradually, over the millennia and the centuries, humans became more and more civilised. Progress was patchy, and several times progress went backwards.

Like all countries - including China - Britain has a dark past. But what matters right now is whether Britain has a dark present. The present is the only thing that is important, because none of us can undo the past. And no, Britain does not have a dark present. Britain embodies the principles of freedom, equality, democracy, the rule of law, freedom of expression. Yes, it is flawed and imperfect, but those are its principles.

In contrast China right now is imprisoning it's own citizens just for expressing disagreement with the government. Britain doesn't do that. China subjects the Uyghurs to mass imprisonment and the systematic destruction of the Uyghurs' racial and cultural identity.* Britain doesn't do that.

I won't go on - this is not a political forum, but my conviction remains as strong as ever: the Chinese state oppresses its own citizens, and oppresses Uyghurs and Tibetans even more. The Chinese state makes no effort to stop the widespread faking of products designed in Japan or the West, nor the theft of intellectual property. The Chinese government is explicitly opposed to the freedoms enjoyed by citizens in the West.

Because of those policies I believe that the Chinese state is a force of evil in the world, and one which imposes severe threats to Western values and freedoms.

So, my dear @tatel, mock and laugh as much as you like. My skin is plenty thick enough. And when you've finished, read the following. If you think Wikipedia is biased, check out the extensive references (I've provided a link for you). See if you can keep an open mind - you might gain some new insights. And if you have any human compassion inside you, prepare to be horrified.

------

From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China?wprov=sfla1

 In 2014, the Chinese government announced a "people's war on terror". Since then, Uyghurs in Xinjiang have been affected by extensive controls and restrictions which the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and the Chinese government has imposed upon their religious, cultural, economic and social lives. In order to forcibly assimilate them, the government has arbitrarily detained more than an estimated one million Uyghurs in internment camps. Human Rights Watch says that the camps have been used to indoctrinate Uyghurs and other Muslims since 2017.

Leaked Chinese government operating procedures state that the main feature of the camps is to ensure adherence to CCP ideology, with the inmates being continuously held captive in the camps for a minimum of 12 months depending on their performance on Chinese ideology tests. The New York Times has reported inmates are required to "sing hymns praising the Chinese Communist Party and write 'self-criticism' essays," and that prisoners are also subjected to physical and verbal abuse by prison guards. Chinese officials have sometimes assigned to monitor the families of current inmates, and women have been detained due to actions by their sons or husbands.

Other policies have included forced labor, suppression of Uyghur religious practices, political indoctrination, severe ill-treatment, forced sterilization, forced contraception, and forced abortion. According to German researcher Adrian Zenz, hundreds of thousands of children have been forcibly separated from their parents and sent to boarding schools.

 

You can believe what you want. Things will continue this way no matter what we believe.

Ancient mayas wounded themselves in the penis to offer a sacrifice to their gods. It seems, blood coming from the penis was much more appreciated by the gods. That way, a drought could be avoided. At the end of the day, it didn't work, and a drought terminated maya civilization, but I'm as fine with that maya belief as with yours -as long as my own penis remains safe.

As for your sources, remember, we evil Spaniards maliciously and deliberately broke that battleship in La Habana harbour. This was proven beyond any reasonable doubt in the impartial investigation carried out by the US. It was the "undisputed truth" for about 100 years, until suddenly the US recognized that it was all bullshit. The same things can be said about the cause of a couple wars where, first Cape Town, then the gold and diamonds, were stolen from the boer, the germans raping nuns in Belgium in WWI, the Gulf of Tonkin incident that led the US to Vietnam, Gaddafi, Assad, whatever. Fact is, as soon as native english speakers put the bullseye on some country, a lot of evidence suddenly appears demonstrating these people is a vicious as Richard III, who as we all know,  was not only a murderous hunchback, but also farted like a buffalo, fornicated with toads and, when he got the pedophile streak, with tadpoles.

Saddam's weapons of mass destruction was the funniest of all. They hanged him after carefully putting all the WMD on tribunal's table, true? It was right then when I understood that "justice" is the same everywhere and that the indispensable country had became the same that 1938 Germany.

Do you realize that at least some of us have not brown, but grey matter between the ears? You have perfect right to any beliefs you want, but you can't expect I will accept your beliefs/prejudices/propaganda as the revealed-by-God truth. Please wrap it all in barbed wire, and stick it up your you-know-where, while taking a deep breath so it can reach really really high.

As you said, this is not a political forum. Then why are you and the OP and others putting this bullshit here? I think the mods should lock this thread right now.

[themadhippy]

Britain embodies the principles of freedom, equality, democracy, the rule of law, freedom of expression

  until you post something online disagreeing with the establishment,and i reckon under  under the current regime its only gonna get worse.

[Nominal Animal]

Or is it that the product of R&D is patents, rather than knowledge?

Many (most?) patents are obtained to make it more expensive for competitors to compete, and not to publish the actual key details which are kept as trade secrets instead.  Filling up patent pools, for example.  Quite the opposite to the original purpose of patents, really. 

[TimFox]

Legally, a patent must give enough information for "one skilled in the art" to duplicate the invention, but clever applications try to avoid that.
Before retirement, I found that a main purpose of patents in a competitive field was that the leading companies would negotiate patent-sharing agreements with each other, and each company needed a pool of good patents to get a strong negotiating position.

[coppice]

Legally, a patent must give enough information for "one skilled in the art" to duplicate the invention, but clever applications try to avoid that.
Before retirement, I found that a main purpose of patents in a competitive field was that the leading companies would negotiate patent-sharing agreements with each other, and each company needed a pool of good patents to get a strong negotiating position.

The frustrating thing is that in this context a "good patent" is not one that results from extensive research, or brilliant creativity/inventiveness. Its one that is a good road block. Companies often have a slew of brilliant patents, but the ones that make them money are often the ones that were probably put together in an afternoon to land grab a new application area.

[SteveThackery]

[LARGE AMOUNTS OF WHAT-ABOUTERY]

I've posted my references. Instead of boring us with what-aboutery, let's see your references.

Do you realize that at least some of us have not brown, but grey matter between the ears? You have perfect right to any beliefs you want, but you can't expect I will accept your beliefs/prejudices/propaganda as the revealed-by-God truth. Please wrap it all in barbed wire, and stick it up your you-know-where, while taking a deep breath so it can reach really really high.

Wooh hooh! Some serious ad hominem stuff going on there!  Not a good way to persuade anyone to your point of view, old chap.

As you said, this is not a political forum. Then why are you and the OP and others putting this bullshit here? I think the mods should lock this thread right now.

So a thread should be locked when you feel offended? Good heavens, we've brought up a generation of entitled snowflakes.

I case you missed it, the very title of this thread has a distinct political slant to it, so it's natural that the discussion will have some political content. I'm mindful of not pushing it too far, but of course it's a judgement call.

[SteveThackery]

Britain embodies the principles of freedom, equality, democracy, the rule of law, freedom of expression

  until you post something online disagreeing with the establishment,and i reckon under  under the current regime its only gonna get worse.

Hey, buddy! Good to hear from you.

Of course Western countries like the UK are far from perfect, and I fear the spread of wokeism might indeed lead to the oppression of free speech.

But yes, compared to many parts of the world, we in Britain are lucky bastards. We have democracy, for one thing, which is precious and to be defended. Just look how many countries around the world endure elected dictatorships.

[tatel]

[LARGE AMOUNTS OF WHAT-ABOUTERY]

I've posted my references. Instead of boring us with what-aboutery, let's see your references.

Do you realize that at least some of us have not brown, but grey matter between the ears? You have perfect right to any beliefs you want, but you can't expect I will accept your beliefs/prejudices/propaganda as the revealed-by-God truth. Please wrap it all in barbed wire, and stick it up your you-know-where, while taking a deep breath so it can reach really really high.

Wooh hooh! Some serious ad hominem stuff going on there!  Not a good way to persuade anyone to your point of view, old chap.

As you said, this is not a political forum. Then why are you and the OP and others putting this bullshit here? I think the mods should lock this thread right now.

So a thread should be locked when you feel offended? Good heavens, we've brought up a generation of entitled snowflakes.

I case you missed it, the very title of this thread has a distinct political slant to it, so it's natural that the discussion will have some political content. I'm mindful of not pushing it too far, but of course it's a judgement call.

In case you didn't noticed it, my points are 1) your allegations can't be taken seriously, and 2) If this is not a political forum, then any thread with a political slant on the title should be locked ASAP.

That would spare us quite a few deluded rants.

Hegemony is gonna be on the other side of the world anyway, no matter if you, and others like you, like it or not.

I have already stated what I think, so no need to waste more time; please feel free to rant all you want. Not my business.

[SteveThackery]

Hegemony is gonna be on the other side of the world anyway, no matter if you, and others like you, like it or not.

We agree on that! The UK is circling the drain and is, in my opinion, unrecoverable. The West, and democracy in particular, are in decline. China will emerge as the world power, although the US won't go down easily. The hard-won Western values of freedom, equality, tolerance, privacy, democracy, will all be lost and the Chinese oppressive dictatorship will spread across the world. It will be the greatest loss to humankind in history.

I have already stated what I think, so no need to waste more time; please feel free to rant all you want. Not my business.

Thank you, but I don't need your permission to post, and it never was your business.

[tatel]

We agree on that! The UK is circling the drain and is, in my opinion, unrecoverable. The West, and democracy in particular, are in decline. China will emerge as the world power, although the US won't go down easily. The hard-won Western values of freedom, equality, tolerance, privacy, democracy, will all be lost and the Chinese oppressive dictatorship will spread across the world. It will be the greatest loss to humankind in history.

Don't worry, be happy. China doesn't give a shit for any kind of political regime in the UK. They will be happy just trading, and will happily see the UK going down the drain, while doing nothing, neither to help nor to flush the toilet.

After looking at the news coming from the UK, I think that guy Starmer is actually the real threat for all those Western values you mention. Just ask Julian Assange. Or just look at the newspapers.

At the Vietnam war we were told, if communists win, all asian countries will become communist one by one. As we all can see now, that wasn't true. About 50,000 US guys died for nothing. Not to mention millions of Vietnamese that had perfect right to organize his country as they saw fit.

The current wave of yellow peril isn't true, either.

Trankimazin, anyone?

Thank you, but I don't need your permission to post,

Of course not, we agree on that too.

and it never was your business.

You are wrong here. After you post in a forum, the rest of forum members are who decide if it's their business, and have a right to answer in any way they want, or not. You are the champion of -among other things- free speech, aren't you?

[SteveThackery]

Don't worry, be happy. China doesn't give a shit for any kind of political regime in the UK. They will be happy just trading, and will happily see the UK going down the drain, while doing nothing, neither to help nor to flush the toilet.

Totally agree - the UK is an irrelevance to China. That doesn't mean we shouldn't worry. In decades to come, the UK will be a third world country, whilst China's influence around the globe will be as powerful and widespread as America's was in the 20th century and the UK's was in the 19th. Being a third world country, and being under China's thumb, are two really bad things. We will be poor, and we will be oppressed. Of course we should worry.

After you post in a forum, the rest of forum members are who decide if it's their business, and have a right to answer in any way they want, or not. You are the champion of -among other things- free speech, aren't you?

Quite right. I am happy to stand corrected.

[electronx]

I have photographic evidence of this, don't be so sure of yourself

Deep fake ones   

Edit: The quoted post has been deleted along with some other posts of the member, claiming things about back doors. Luckily tooki quoted that one post.

Definitely,in your eyes, everything is a conspiracy theory,

[coppice]

In decades to come, the UK will be a third world country, whilst China's influence around the globe will be as powerful and widespread as America's was in the 20th century and the UK's was in the 19th. Being a third world country, and being under China's thumb, are two really bad things. We will be poor, and we will be oppressed. Of course we should worry.

Get with the times man. The UK is a third world country, if you exclude London, and London won't take long to reach the status of the rest of the country. The UK is already poorer than the poorest state in the US, and appears to have been for about 2 decades. The reason so much immigration to the UK is unskilled is that for any professional migrating to the UK it was last choice after all other avenues for emigration had failed.

[electronx]

I guess this is not true, even though I can develop PCBs high speed design and write firmware , they asked me for 10k US dollars for a work visa and I was beginning to believe that everyone passing by in UK was an expert in hardware and software and that I was inadequate.I think it's a place full of talented people.or they are just looking for warehouse personnel. 

[AVGresponding]

This thread is more full of shit than a slurry tank on a pig farm. For the love of sanity, please close it, Mods

[coppice]

I guess this is not true, even though I can develop PCBs high speed design and write firmware , they asked me for 10k US dollars for a work visa and I was beginning to believe that everyone passing by in UK was an expert in hardware and software and that I was inadequate.I think it's a place full of talented people.or they are just looking for warehouse personnel. 

Third world countries just don't have a big demand for highly skilled people. They do, however have warehouses full of imported stuff that needs distributing. That $10k is something everyone has to pay to legally get into the UK. Its disgusting that a British citizen can't even bring their own spouse in without a large expenditure. The various costs for that add up to something like $10k.