Why does the US provide all critical electronic design knowledge to the world?

[fzabkar]

China marks products with the "China Export" mark. This says nothing about safety, it simply states the product originated in China.

The China Export mark is different in appearance from the Conformité Européenne mark, although it is likely no accident they are similar.

I think this says something about Chinese culture. They are taking the piss out of gullible westerners by using a mark that is similar enough that people might be confused, but different enough that anyone paying attention will notice.

Let's call it what it really is -- dishonest, deceptive, deliberately misleading. Is that the essence of Chinese culture? I hope not, but it undoubtedly describes the Chinese regulatory authorities, and by extension, the government.

[pcprogrammer]

I think the Chinese state brainwashes its citizens to think this way, not least because the West must not appear too attractive to the Chinese population, as this could undermine the state's iron grip on power.

I always have to laugh when someone makes a statement about brainwashing the population in other countries and forget about the fact that we undergo the same process.

How is it that you think about the Chinese in the way that you do. Surely it is not because you made up your own mind entirely on your own. It is more likely due to things you were taught in school, seen on the tv, or read on the internet.

We are all biased by our upbringing and surroundings and that does mean that what we think is not necessarily true.

I don't know how it really is in China and yes there may be a lot wrong in the country, but I can get my toys for cheap and I like that better than getting similar toys from western suppliers at much inflated prices.

Further more we westerners should not complain that much, because we indeed gave them the opportunity just because we wanted our toys to be cheap. Capitalism at work for you.

Also there are Chinese companies that make good products for competitive prices without some western support. Think of Rigol and Siglent.

The power we have handed China scares me. Not because of Chinese people, but because the Chinese state shares none of our hard fought for values of democracy, freedom, the rule of law, liberalism..... If China could it would rule the world and impose its values everywhere, just as Britain did with its empire. But Chinese state values are scary: deep, deep oppression and state control everywhere. Read up about the Chinese state's "social credit", and feel the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

You should be more scared about your own government craving for similar systems of oppression, or even worse, religious influences in politic parties with the aim of going back to the days that we had to fear for the Spanish inquisition. There will certainly be men who would like it to be the case, everywhere.

[Simon]

It is not the responsibility of the Chinese government to check if the goods exported meet the standards of the destination country but rather it is the responsibility of the destination country to control that imports meet their standards. Just like it is not the responsibility of the Australian government to check if the goods exported meet the standards of the destination country but rather it is the responsibility of the destination country to control that imports meet their standards.

I don't think this is right, is it? You are talking about self-certification, and it was introduced specifically to avoid the importers having to check every product for compliance. Think of how many products come into the country from China - making the importers responsible for checking compliance of every different product with all the relevant standards is ridiculous. Impossible, actually. Self-certification is based on trust, but backed up by a big hammer: in the EU, at least, the directors of the certifying company are personally liable for misuse of certification marks. This was innovative law when it came in: up until then, companies were sued, not individuals. It marked a sea change in EU law.

Now of course this does not apply to Chinese companies. You can forget fining or jailing the directors of a Chinese company, because their government ensures they are untouchable.

I agree that the Chinese government is not responsible for the products coming out of a Chinese factory. But the government DOES set the business culture, and it DOES make it almost impossible to seek compensation or retribution for non-compliant products.

I've bought various things directly from China, not via a UK importer. Many times I have a good experience, but sometimes I get scammed and receive a two dollar plastic toy, rather than the 20 dollar product I wanted. And I know, beyond doubt, that there is no chance whatsoever of getting recompense. In fact it's usually impossible to pin down who it was you actually paid. Company names come and go, addresses change, correspondence is invariably ignored, and the supplier is effectively untouchable, assuming you could even find them. The suppliers know this.

Of course, it's a different story for big western companies like Microsoft and Apple: their relationships with Chinese suppliers is much more equitable and they do have the power to get exactly what they want from the manufacturers. And it proves beyond doubt that some Chinese companies, at least, are capable of producing top class quality products. Maybe better than we in the west can do.

one.., no now it's two acronyms CE and UKCA, any product imported must adhere to these standards, or rather the various sets of standards that you have to meander your way through self certifying your product. As you can't really sue anyone in china as the easiest way is to put the onus on the importer. Obviously being a self certifying process with the exception of a few product categories....... the inevitable....

[SiliconWizard]

China marks products with the "China Export" mark. This says nothing about safety, it simply states the product originated in China.

The China Export mark is different in appearance from the Conformité Européenne mark, although it is likely no accident they are similar.

I think this says something about Chinese culture. They are taking the piss out of gullible westerners by using a mark that is similar enough that people might be confused, but different enough that anyone paying attention will notice.

Let's call it what it really is -- dishonest, deceptive, deliberately misleading. Is that the essence of Chinese culture? I hope not, but it undoubtedly describes the Chinese regulatory authorities, and by extension, the government.

What does it say? How many manufacturers from other countries put a CE mark (with the right shape) on their products without having checked conformity in any way? Too many to count.

Do most other countries not do the same thing when they *can* (ie. sell crappy stuff)? Yep. You should have a look at the kind of products we sell to "third-world" countries, for instance.

Business has basically no ethics. It's just all about opportunities. Thiking otherwise is full delusion. China is using opportunities to sell in the West, just like we do. If we accept their products, that means we're ok with it. Business may have no ethics, but it still needs customers.

[fzabkar]

How many manufacturers from other countries put a CE mark (with the right shape) on their products without having checked conformity in any way? Too many to count.

How many regulatory authorities deliberately create a "mark" which is designed to confuse the consumer? For example, can you imagine a Canada Export mark with a similar design?

[Kjelt]

We deserve whatever comes our way. It was greed, and only greed, that outsourced our manufacturing to China. In the end we want endless new toys, and we want them cheap. The 21st century will be the Chinese century, just as the 20th was the American century and the 19th, the British century.

It probably will be and should be. Look in the mirror, i don't know about your universities and school systems but ours are inflated over the years. Was it 6 years nominal for a masters in the 70s it now is 4 years and the level is way lower than it was. People have become lazy, fat and think they deserve 8 weeks of holidays and 32 hours of work max per week and deserve to earn a salary that is rediculous high for what is being done only because the inflation also rose prices to levels unimaginable before.
In the mean time in India there are 100000+ tech masters and bachelors graduating every year. In China probably also something in that order. Pick the 1% top smartest from that bunch and you have more brainpower then the entire continent of Europe produces in a decade willing to work 50+ hours without issue because they were taught so and you still wonder why they are winning ?

[SteveThackery]

What does it say? How many manufacturers from other countries put a CE mark (with the right shape) on their products without having checked conformity in any way? Too many to count.

If you are a manufacturer here in Europe you don't actually have to check every product you make because there are constructional standards (eg track spacing, PCB materials, insulation material and thickness) which are deemed to satisfy the electrical safety standards, for example. Same with EMC: follow the manufacturing rules and you don't have to test the EMC performance.

I don't know how many other countries put a CE mark on the product knowing it's a lie (like China does, although it is technically misleading rather than an actual lie). We aren't talking about ineptitude or laziness here, we are talking about a deliberate and blatant intent to mislead. It's a pretty shit practice, if you ask me.

I feel I cannot support a country that treats its customers like that, nor one that jails citizens who express disagreement with the government, nor one that imprisons ethnic minorities like the Uigurs. It's a pathetic gesture, I know, but whenever there is a choice I buy from somewhere other than China. That means switching to Samsung for my phone and laptop (sadly their laptops don't tick the boxes for me, so I made a reluctant purchase of a Surface laptop).  Sadly, for many, many products it's Made in China or nothing.

[SteveThackery]

It probably will be and should be. Look in the mirror, i don't know about your universities and school systems but ours are inflated over the years. Was it 6 years nominal for a masters in the 70s it now is 4 years and the level is way lower than it was. People have become lazy, fat and think they deserve 8 weeks of holidays and 32 hours of work max per week and deserve to earn a salary that is rediculous high for what is being done only because the inflation also rose prices to levels unimaginable before.
In the mean time in India there are 100000+ tech masters and bachelors graduating every year. In China probably also something in that order. Pick the 1% top smartest from that bunch and you have more brainpower then the entire continent of Europe produces in a decade willing to work 50+ hours without issue because they were taught so and you still wonder why they are winning ?

Well said: I agree with every word. Our time is past.

[TimNJ]

What does it say? How many manufacturers from other countries put a CE mark (with the right shape) on their products without having checked conformity in any way? Too many to count.

If you are a manufacturer here in Europe you don't actually have to check every product you make because there are constructional standards (eg track spacing, PCB materials, insulation material and thickness) which are deemed to satisfy the electrical safety standards, for example. Same with EMC: follow the manufacturing rules and you don't have to test the EMC performance.

I don't know how many other countries put a CE mark on the product knowing it's a lie (like China does, although it is technically misleading rather than an actual lie). We aren't talking about ineptitude or laziness here, we are talking about a deliberate and blatant intent to mislead. It's a pretty shit practice, if you ask me.

I feel I cannot support a country that treats its customers like that, nor one that jails citizens who express disagreement with the government, nor one that imprisons ethnic minorities like the Uigurs. It's a pathetic gesture, I know, but whenever there is a choice I buy from somewhere other than China. That means switching to Samsung for my phone and laptop (sadly their laptops don't tick the boxes for me, so I made a reluctant purchase of a Surface laptop).  Sadly, for many, many products it's Made in China or nothing.

It's not healthy to engage in deeply political threads but..

What? You don't have to check that something is safe to prove that it is safe? Follow some rules and you're exempt from testing EMC? Hmm, what's the saying again? "If you didn't document it, then you didn't do it" or "If you didn't test it, then it doesn't work"?

So you're saying is that it's OK for European companies to blindly put their un-verified products on the market because..."trust me bro, it's fine bro"?

Yes, some components/materials have safety certifications (nothing to do with being in Europe), but does that make your product safe? If I go to the hardware store and buy some lumber, siding, and roofing material, am I guaranteed to make a structurally sound, waterproof house?

[Simon]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be anti- two things that happen too often with products coming from China: deliberately CE marking unsafe products; and counterfeiting products. They do a lot of both.

China marks products with the "China Export" mark. This says nothing about safety, it simply states the product originated in China.

The China Export mark is different in appearance from the Conformité Européenne mark, although it is likely no accident they are similar.

I think this says something about Chinese culture. They are taking the piss out of gullible westerners by using a mark that is similar enough that people might be confused, but different enough that anyone paying attention will notice.

The china export mark is a myth, it's just that some people are not good at copying it or care. Look you can't touch anyone in the country. China does not recognize any court outside of china so you would have to sue in china where unsurprisingly you will probably not win. Therefore why bother with the china export mark? if they want to say that it is china export then legally they still have to put the actual CE mark so the china export mark still does not help, the products either comply or they do not and if it comes out of china then you won't trust it as a consumer you expect the importer to do their homework.

CE is basically useless anyway. It's self certifying and until someone is hauled into court nothing will be done about the dodgy product.

[Kjelt]

CE is basically useless anyway. It's self certifying and until someone is hauled into court nothing will be done about the dodgy product.

So anyone want to speculate what would happen if a chinese product is unrightfully marked with UL or TuV compliance when it has not been tested by such standards/companies ?

Also some part of the chinese "it belongs to everyone" culture does make sense.
I personally hate the ultra expensive ISO and NEN standards that only can be bought by large companies while hobbieists as myself also would like to know them and follow them where possible.
Anyone tried to get a copy of the HDMI standard ? Unobtanium for normal persons. At least patents are open although kind of legally encrypted with their patent slang. I could not even recognize my own invention when I got the paperwork back from the PA. 

[SiliconWizard]

As a reminder, the importer is responsible for the conformity of goods they import and resell. Not the exporter.
So it's whoever imports the good who should check conformity. Either via enough proof (documentation) from the exporter if they can obtain it, or having the product tested in a lab before selling it.

[SteveThackery]

What? You don't have to check that something is safe to prove that it is safe? Follow some rules and you're exempt from testing EMC? Hmm, what's the saying again? "If you didn't document it, then you didn't do it" or "If you didn't test it, then it doesn't work"?

So you're saying is that it's OK for European companies to blindly put their un-verified products on the market because..."trust me bro, it's fine bro"?

Almost. The importer is responsible for the safety of the product, but most of the time it is OK to do that by inspecting the test certificates. The manufacturer can self-certify and then produce a Certificate of Conformance, plus the test certificates and other mandated documents.

I've just found out that for certain "high risk" products, including medical devices, a Notified Body gets involved and does conduct tests to determine the product's compliance with the relevant standards. Most products do not require this.

The point being that most of the time products don't need to be subjected to the full suite of relevant tests to ensure compliance; most of the time the importer can just inspect the paperwork.

To be fair, I don't think many non-compliant products find their way here through the big importers, because they definitely don't want to get mixed up in legal action. I think the system works, by and large. Rather, I think most of the non-compliant stuff comes direct from China via eBay, Aliexpress, and the others. In effect, the purchaser is the importer. If you watch Big Clive's channel, most (not all) of the non-compliant or outright dangerous stuff seems to come in that way.

[vk6zgo]

Assuming that opamps were hidden for 10 years during World War II, I'm sure technologies we don't know about are being used now.

The "Op Amps" used during WW2 were discrete modules using 12AT7 tubes or their equivalent.
In any case, Op Amps as such were not always the best or even the easiest way to perform a particular task.

In the Years between WW1 & WW2, large Electronics manufacturers tried to "Patent everything", but were singularly unsuccessful.
Various new forms of circuitry as they were developed, found their way into the "Public Domain", often via the multitude of "Radio Magazines" which popped up like mushrooms throughout the world.

[vk6zgo]

I have another angle on so-called "Chinese crap".

Before the PRC underwent a "startling metamorphosis" into a quasi capitalist society, everything factories made was for the government.
People often chafed under the strict regime & the idea of producing rubbishy products became a way of "sticking it to the man".

Getting away with it was gratifying, so it became embedded into the work culture.
With the onset of "privatisation" we have become "The Man".

[tooki]

How many manufacturers from other countries put a CE mark (with the right shape) on their products without having checked conformity in any way? Too many to count.

How many regulatory authorities deliberately create a "mark" which is designed to confuse the consumer? For example, can you imagine a Canada Export mark with a similar design?

Zero. To this day there is no credible evidence of the actual existence of a “China Export” mark. Just of poorly copied CE logos. (Bearing in mind that nonconforming CE logos have also been found on genuine devices from western manufacturers.) The big problem is that some Chinese manufacturers slap the CE logo (with either correct or nonconforming logo geometry) onto products which plainly do not meet CE requirements.

So anyone want to speculate what would happen if a chinese product is unrightfully marked with UL or TuV compliance when it has not been tested by such standards/companies ?

With UL, TÜV, and Intertek, and presumably others like them, let anyone search the certificate for a product. At minimum, this makes it a lot easier for customs officials to figure out whether a product’s UL/TÜV/Intertek certificate matches the object in front of them, and if it does, to know who needs to be contacted to verify authenticity of the products.

[G7PSK]

The Chinese people went through famines directly caused by the government and due to hi they have the attitude of doing everything they can to earn money and make as much profit as possible and if this means cutting corners they do so.

The Chinese government also imposed production quotas which had to be met so again corners are cut in order to do so, The Russians used to be as bad, there used to be stories of tractor and vehicle factories where in order to keep the quotas up finished products rolled of the production line only to be taken round to the back of the factory where they were dismantled, very similar thing is happening in china today with graveyards of EV's produced because the Chinese government has provided funds to make them but they cannot be sold.

[TimFox]

Assuming that opamps were hidden for 10 years during World War II, I'm sure technologies we don't know about are being used now.

The "Op Amps" used during WW2 were discrete modules using 12AT7 tubes or their equivalent.
In any case, Op Amps as such were not always the best or even the easiest way to perform a particular task.

In the Years between WW1 & WW2, large Electronics manufacturers tried to "Patent everything", but were singularly unsuccessful.
Various new forms of circuitry as they were developed, found their way into the "Public Domain", often via the multitude of "Radio Magazines" which popped up like mushrooms throughout the world.

The first WW II "op amp" used 6SL7 octal dual triodes in a military application.  The later Philbrick commercial op amps derived from that design used 12AX7 miniature dual triodes.  EDN once had a younger person refer to those tubes as "high micron" triodes.

[vk6zgo]

The Chinese people went through famines directly caused by the government and due to hi they have the attitude of doing everything they can to earn money and make as much profit as possible and if this means cutting corners they do so.

The Chinese government also imposed production quotas which had to be met so again corners are cut in order to do so, The Russians used to be as bad, there used to be stories of tractor and vehicle factories where in order to keep the quotas up finished products rolled of the production line only to be taken round to the back of the factory where they were dismantled, very similar thing is happening in china today with graveyards of EV's produced because the Chinese government has provided funds to make them but they cannot be sold.

Similar things occurred in non-communist societies.

My brother bought a Holden "One Tonner" ute. (actually, a small flatbed truck).
All was well until the clutch died, & Bro took it in for repair.

The mechanic was a friendly chap & was quite happy for my brother to join him in doing the job.
After the usual stuff, they got the gearbox out & proceeded to unscrew the pressure plate from the fly wheel.

The new "guts" was sitting on the bench, & a comparison revealed that the existing pressure plate/driven plate assembly was smaller, being in fact the one from the sedan.

Digging around, the mechanic found the remains of a cardboard tag attached to one of the clutch cover bolts.

It appears that GMH used the "just in time" parts system, & unfortunately, the "One Tonner" clutches had failed to arrive "just on time".
No worries, just fit a sedan clutch, tag it & when the QA  guy saw the tag, it would be taken to one side & the correct clutch fitted------ a polished procedure.
Again unfortunately, this time the tag was inadvertently torn off, except for a tiny piece.

Around the same time, I got into the habit of reading a British auto magazine which had a "blunder of the week section" which called out various hilarious stuff ups by UK carmakers.

One I particularly remember was the one where the upmarket version of a Hillman Imp didn't get the holes drilled for the special badge, so was tagged in the same way as the Holden vehicle above.
The QA guy duly pulled it off to one side where one of his minions drilled the holes & snapped the badge into place, then off it went to the dealer, who had an eager customer "champing at the bit".

That worthy finished the paperwork & drove off in his new "Pride & joy", noticing as he went that the dealer had only put a small amount of fuel in the tank, so rolled into the first petrol station he saw & proceeded to "fill 'er up".
To his consternation, there was petrol everywhere as soon as the fuel level reached the two neatly drilled holes in the tank.
The bloke who drilled the badge holes had used too long a drill bit.

[Simon]

As a reminder, the importer is responsible for the conformity of goods they import and resell. Not the exporter.
So it's whoever imports the good who should check conformity. Either via enough proof (documentation) from the exporter if they can obtain it, or having the product tested in a lab before selling it.

Precisely, the only time CE is really a barrier is when the product is exported, at any other point, no one cares, they just trust this self declared useless logo.

[RoGeorge]

About the CE marking in particular, some are saying the CE can mean either:
- 1.  C E (Conformité Européenne) when written with some space between C and E, or
- 2.  CE (China Export)

The CE committee from EU has a post on their blog, saying they do not know any "China Export" label, but the fact that the graphic is different might as well mean that the given product with "CE" instead of "C E" is not really certified for the EU market.

Right now I can't find again that wordrpress post from the CE org blog seen a week ago, so I'll let other links instead:

Full article:  https://ada.pt/en/cemarking2/


Full article:  https://www.westwoodsourcing.com/en_GB/blog/services-14/ce-marking-china-export-differences-83

[tooki]

About the CE marking in particular, some are saying the CE can mean either:
- 1.  C E (Conformité Européenne) when written with some space between C and E, or
- 2.  CE (China Export)

The CE committee from EU has a post on their blog, saying they do not know any "China Export" label, but the fact that the graphic is different might as well mean that the given product with "CE" instead of "C E" is not really certified for the EU market.

Right now I can't find again that wordrpress post from the CE org blog seen a week ago, so I'll let other links instead:

Full article:  https://ada.pt/en/cemarking2/


Full article:  https://www.westwoodsourcing.com/en_GB/blog/services-14/ce-marking-china-export-differences-83

People repeat that urban legend, but that doesn’t make it any more true. If anyone is going to be aware of the existence of a China Export mark (by which I mean the existence of some standard or certification that defines it), it would be the CE committee, but their position on the matter is clear: it doesn’t exist.

[SteveThackery]

'CE' never stood for China Export - it was either an inept copy of the genuine 'C E' logo, or it could have been cleverly designed to fool consumers without technically being in breach of the rules around the real 'C E' mark.

The fact that we still see it on products - including non-compliant ones* - shows the level of disdain and contempt the Chinese have for the West.

*Look up Big Clive's channel on YouTube.

[tooki]

'CE' never stood for China Export - it was either an inept copy of the genuine 'C E' logo, or it could have been cleverly designed to fool consumers without technically being in breach of the rules around the real 'C E' mark.

The fact that we still see it on products - including non-compliant ones* - shows the level of disdain and contempt the Chinese have for the West.

As I stated above, we have also found CE logos with incorrect geometry on compliant products from bigger manufacturers, so “inept” is a very likely source, and it may have been ineptitude at a western manufacturer, and then the Chinese counterfeiters copied the inept logo!

*Look up Big Clive's channel on YouTube.

I think everyone on the forums is already well acquainted with bigclive.

[Simon]

About the CE marking in particular, some are saying the CE can mean either:
- 1.  C E (Conformité Européenne) when written with some space between C and E, or
- 2.  CE (China Export)

The CE committee from EU has a post on their blog, saying they do not know any "China Export" label, but the fact that the graphic is different might as well mean that the given product with "CE" instead of "C E" is not really certified for the EU market.

That's what I said, and if it is not C E marked it cannot be imported. So the china export thing is bollocks as either it is a C E mark that has been done incorrectly because the manufacturers could not care less because their products are non compliant anyway or if they try to say they meant it as china export then they are literally saying that their product is illegal to import because it is not C E compliant. So the china export mark has no reason to exist, it's just a silly rumor someone started after maybe just one person in the great photocopier of the world got wrong and all the others copied.

I used to know a Spal salesman. He told me that the chinese copied their fans so blindly that they molded in the shape of the impellor the missing bits taken out to balance that one impellor.