Why does the US provide all critical electronic design knowledge to the world?

[electronx]

Believe me, for most countries and for most people, patent is just a "word". Maybe these rules can be applied in Europe and America, but they cannot apply this to other countries. Who will be the judge?I do not believe that patents are absolutely protective.

[EPAIII]

Have you ever considered that the real secrets of technology are NOT in the published information. You can publish a schematic. You can publish the code it uses; line for line. But that information is useless without the chips that are needed. And if you follow world news, you will see that countries like Russia and China are buying the chips for their most important military equipment from the West; from the US and our allies.

Why would they do that if they could produce those chips themselves. Fact is, they can't! Russia has lost a lot of tanks in Ukraine. Their factories can't build new ones without the chips that come from the West. They can't upgrade the old ones they have in storage without the chips that come from the West.

Yes, Russia and China can make chips. But they are decades behind in the technology. They can make 1990's chips, not 2024's. Their equipment is running with their equivalents of Comodore 64s and Apple IIs.

So what we give away is not enough if you want the latest and greatest. It is enough for the technology of 20 or more years ago, not today's.

And it is not the chip fabrication facilities that are where the real secrets lie. There are hundreds of these facilities around the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants

It is the companies that make the equipment that these fabrication facilities use that are the real controllers of the latest knowledge.

https://www.marketsandmarkets.com/ResearchInsight/semiconductor-manufacturing-equipment-market.asp

That's a MUCH shorter list with less than a handful at the cutting edge. And even within those few companies, I would bet that there are only a handful of people who actually understand things well enough to actually be capable of spreading it. Just copying a computer database would not necessarily be enough to copy the technology.

Other fields of technology will have similar situations. The world may have thousands of foundries that produce steel, but how many facilities can produce a space age metal with an "impossible" list of specifications? Aircraft? Petrochemicals? The list goes on and on. Every area of technology will have it's latest and greatest technology.

[electronx]

Have you ever considered that the real secrets of technology are NOT in the published information. You can publish a schematic. You can publish the code it uses; line for line. But that information is useless without the chips that are needed. And if you follow world news, you will see that countries like Russia and China are buying the chips for their most important military equipment from the West; from the US and our allies.

Why would they do that if they could produce those chips themselves. Fact is, they can't! Russia has lost a lot of tanks in Ukraine. Their factories can't build new ones without the chips that come from the West. They can't upgrade the old ones they have in storage without the chips that come from the West.

Yes, Russia and China can make chips. But they are decades behind in the technology. They can make 1990's chips, not 2024's. Their equipment is running with their equivalents of Comodore 64s and Apple IIs.

So what we give away is not enough if you want the latest and greatest. It is enough for the technology of 20 or more years ago, not today's.

And it is not the chip fabrication facilities that are where the real secrets lie. There are hundreds of these facilities around the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants

It is the companies that make the equipment that these fabrication facilities use that are the real controllers of the latest knowledge.

https://www.marketsandmarkets.com/ResearchInsight/semiconductor-manufacturing-equipment-market.asp

That's a MUCH shorter list with less than a handful at the cutting edge. And even within those few companies, I would bet that there are only a handful of people who actually understand things well enough to actually be capable of spreading it. Just copying a computer database would not necessarily be enough to copy the technology.

Other fields of technology will have similar situations. The world may have thousands of foundries that produce steel, but how many facilities can produce a space age metal with an "impossible" list of specifications? Aircraft? Petrochemicals? The list goes on and on. Every area of technology will have it's latest and greatest technology.

Even if this doesn't fully answer my question, yes that's exactly what I mean, I agree with you 100% +999999

[bborisov567]

I think that in the big picture over time a regional conflict or a big war sets back humanity far less then if a technology, science discovery or medical advancement is not shared across nations and kept a secret by default. This kind of thinking is so short-sighed that it gets dangerous if critical mass of people start seeing things this way.

I would say exactly the contrary is right. War creates the need for extraordinary technology that eventually get developed, becomes cheaper and end up used by consumers - the GPS system is quite a clear example of that. Also that need allocates bigger budged for R&D which in return leads to scientific advancements. WWII and the Manhattan project is just another example.

[SteveThackery]

A patent makes public the invention it protects and has a period of time after which it expires. By its very nature a patent makes public what it protects.

Or the inventor can choose to keep his invention secret and thus would not be protected by patent rights.

Well, yes, I do understand that. My point was in response to the argument that knowledge is only useful when shared. Also, the notion that western countries can keep their knowledge secret is silly. That led to obvious question: what is the point in investing millions in an R&D department if you cannot gain competitive advantage from it due to everything they produce being shared across the industry?

That's why I asked about patents: at least it might be possible to get some license revenue from them.

[SteveThackery]

Believe me, for most countries and for most people, patent is just a "word". Maybe these rules can be applied in Europe and America, but they cannot apply this to other countries. Who will be the judge?I do not believe that patents are absolutely protective.

I absolutely agree. As far as I can tell, countries outside of the West have zero respect for the West's intellectual property. Of course China rips off Western IP!

They also have no respect for the West's regulations and safety standards. Watch Big Clive to see how blatantly and happily the Chinese will stamp the CE mark and any other standards marks on anything, with literally zero regard for safety or actual compliance.

You can not assign human qualities to a country, but it's as if China has no conscience.

[Kjelt]

I absolutely agree. As far as I can tell, countries outside of the West have zero respect for the West's intellectual property. Of course China rips off Western IP!
They also have no respect for the West's regulations and safety standards. Watch Big Clive to see how blatantly and happily the Chinese will stamp the CE mark and any other standards marks on anything, with literally zero regard for safety or actual compliance.
You can not assign human qualities to a country, but it's as if China has no conscience.

They think differently as the west.
I was in the same position as you are now but changed my opinion.
You should not judge another culture based on your own culture without learning about the other culture.
In a communist country there is no personal property or "mine" "not yours!" it is always "ours".

But what happens now has also happened in the past.
The US "stole" rocket technology from Germany after the war, the Japanese copied and improved camera's / electronics / cars from the west in the 60s / 70s /80s , and again the US bought the most talented people with money from all over the world to come to the US instead of investing in their own scholing system 
All is relative and should not be taken to seriously, we are in a closed environment called the earth and everything is known to others in a matter of time.
Every succesfull company these days have multiple continent investors, factories and personell working for them. Personally I hope we all on this planet realize that we are sharing the same soil and start cooperating more and more instead of competing and fighting eachother.

[Foodie]

Money talks, you know. It can solve a lot of problems here.

[Phil1977]

Every succesfull company these days have multiple continent investors, factories and personell working for them. Personally I hope we all on this planet realize that we are sharing the same soil and start cooperating more and more instead of competing and fighting eachother.

The purpose of technology and knowledge is to make life easier, fairer and sometimes to make it just more fun.

And patents are intended to reward innovation, but if they block spreading a good technology over the whole globe it´s just fair to dispute them. Nearly all legislations of the world have a clue that patents can be override in cases of war, medical emergencies etc. And if e.g. today a company finds the battery technology that really helps fighting climate change then all people who try to sell this IP as expensive as possible should be charged for crimes against humanity.

[soldar]

I absolutely agree. As far as I can tell, countries outside of the West have zero respect for the West's intellectual property. Of course China rips off Western IP!

They also have no respect for the West's regulations and safety standards. Watch Big Clive to see how blatantly and happily the Chinese will stamp the CE mark and any other standards marks on anything, with literally zero regard for safety or actual compliance.

You can not assign human qualities to a country, but it's as if China has no conscience.

This is total BS at the same level as "Jews are bad by nature" or "Blacks are inferior by nature". Total BS born from ignorance and prejudice.

[soldar]

They think differently as the west.
I was in the same position as you are now but changed my opinion.
You should not judge another culture based on your own culture without learning about the other culture.
In a communist country there is no personal property or "mine" "not yours!" it is always "ours".

But what happens now has also happened in the past.
The US "stole" rocket technology from Germany after the war, the Japanese copied and improved camera's / electronics / cars from the west in the 60s / 70s /80s , and again the US bought the most talented people with money from all over the world to come to the US instead of investing in their own scholing system 
All is relative and should not be taken to seriously, we are in a closed environment called the earth and everything is known to others in a matter of time.
Every succesfull company these days have multiple continent investors, factories and personell working for them. Personally I hope we all on this planet realize that we are sharing the same soil and start cooperating more and more instead of competing and fighting eachother.

The powerful make rules that benefit them and they want everybody to follow them. And when it is convenient for them to not follow them they make an exception or just change the rules.

The countries with patents demand respect for patents while countries with few patents cheat with what they can get away with.

The USA in the 19th century was notorious for not respecting British intellectual property ... until the USA became a country with lots of patents. 

China today is the country that registers the greatest number of patents and is most interested in the respect of patents' rights.

There is a lot of "but China doesn't respect patents" but there is very little evidence of that. Patent litigation is extremely complex and expensive and difficult to understand by lay persons but I would like to see cases where Chinese or international tribunals ruled unfairly.

And it s difficult to claim patent infringement when the Chinese company is ahead in the game, like Huawei, etc.

[SteveThackery]

This is total BS at the same level as "Jews are bad by nature" or "Blacks are inferior by nature". Total BS born from ignorance and prejudice.

Don't accuse me of racism. I'm not talking about Chinese people, I'm talking about China the country. A country with one of the most oppressive regimes in the world; a country with an appalling human rights record.

So how do you account for the flat-out dangerous products they slap the CE marking on, products which have mains electricity on exposed metal parts? Answer me this, @soldar: would you design, build and market a power supply which has much less than 1mm track separation between the mains and the low volt side of the circuit?

You know damn well you wouldn't dream of it. You would find out what the standards require and make sure your design met or exceeded them.

So what would you call someone who knows what the standards require, but ignores them anyway?  Go on, I want an actual answer!

Then reread my post.

[SteveThackery]

You should not judge another culture based on your own culture without learning about the other culture.
In a communist country there is no personal property or "mine" "not yours!" it is always "ours".

You've no idea of my knowledge of the Chinese culture.

My comment arises from the fact that China knowingly exports products which don't meet US or European safety standards, but still marks them with the statutory markings, knowing that they are bogus.

What would YOU call that?

[SteveThackery]

The countries with patents demand respect for patents while countries with few patents cheat with what they can get away with.

The USA in the 19th century was notorious for not respecting British intellectual property ... until the USA became a country with lots of patents. 

Why does the US breaking patent law 200 years ago justify China breaking patent law today?

I do have an important caveat: I don't know how much patent law gets broken by China, so I am not qualified to speak with authority. My bigger concern, and source of contempt, is about dangerous products being marked up as if they are compliant with US and EU safety regulations.

[pcprogrammer]

All is relative and should not be taken to seriously, we are in a closed environment called the earth and everything is known to others in a matter of time.
Every succesfull company these days have multiple continent investors, factories and personell working for them. Personally I hope we all on this planet realize that we are sharing the same soil and start cooperating more and more instead of competing and fighting eachother.

Wishful thinking, but I'm afraid that with human nature it is never going to happen. 

[pcprogrammer]

Coincidence, conspiracy or just Google smarts, but this video popped up:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bj9JNoFa1as

Not everything from USA is best. 

[pcprogrammer]

Don't accuse me of racism. I'm not talking about Chinese people, I'm talking about China the country. A country with one of the most oppressive regimes in the world; a country with an appalling human rights record.

I never knew a country was capable of doing such things. 

It is the people in a country that do things, so you can only be talking about the Chinese people in this case, and it will only be a portion of the people there that are "frauds". About the human rights thing, that is the governing part of the people instilling fear on others that make this happen.

But don't forget that this same fear mechanism, though subtle, is used to keep all of us under control.

So how do you account for the flat-out dangerous products they slap the CE marking on, products which have mains electricity on exposed metal parts? Answer me this, @soldar: would you design, build and market a power supply which has much less than 1mm track separation between the mains and the low volt side of the circuit?

You know damn well you wouldn't dream of it. You would find out what the standards require and make sure your design met or exceeded them.

That someone in the "western world" does not do this is driven by a similar fear called lawsuit. When I market a dangerous product, I risk being sewed to bankruptcy, so I don't. The people running a Chinese company don't have that fear, because the Chinese government does not aid in such a process.

So what would you call someone who knows what the standards require, but ignores them anyway?  Go on, I want an actual answer!

A fraud.

[Kjelt]

My comment arises from the fact that China knowingly exports products which don't meet US or European safety standards, but still marks them with the statutory markings, knowing that they are bogus.
What would YOU call that?

AFAIK Everyone can put a CE mark on its product when they think it satisfies certain rules.
It is the company that imports the products that is liable for checking these safety conditions.
When you import a certain product in your country you should make sure it is safe before selling it to another company/person. Just stating it has a CE mark so should be fine is not what is considered the duty to investigate that the product meets the safety requirements.
So yes it should not happen, no it is the importer that is to blame if it reaches the public.

[soldar]

This is total BS at the same level as "Jews are bad by nature" or "Blacks are inferior by nature". Total BS born from ignorance and prejudice.

Don't accuse me of racism. I'm not talking about Chinese people, I'm talking about China the country. A country with one of the most oppressive regimes in the world; a country with an appalling human rights record.

So how do you account for the flat-out dangerous products they slap the CE marking on, products which have mains electricity on exposed metal parts? Answer me this, @soldar: would you design, build and market a power supply which has much less than 1mm track separation between the mains and the low volt side of the circuit?

You know damn well you wouldn't dream of it. You would find out what the standards require and make sure your design met or exceeded them.

So what would you call someone who knows what the standards require, but ignores them anyway?  Go on, I want an actual answer!

Then reread my post.

It is not the responsibility of the Chinese government to check if the goods exported meet the standards of the destination country but rather it is the responsibility of the destination country to control that imports meet their standards. Just like it is not the responsibility of the Australian government to check if the goods exported meet the standards of the destination country but rather it is the responsibility of the destination country to control that imports meet their standards.

In Europe some goods are stopped at the border if they are not compliant and other times they are confiscated at warehouses. The Chinese government has zero responsibility in this. If the importer bought non-compliant crap then the importer is responsible. And if the importer was defrauded he can sue his supplier in China. The reality is that importers buy junk because consumers will buy junk and then we all turn around and blame the Chinese government because some Chinese seller sold us junk when we knew full well we were buying junk because we paid junk price.

Chinese manufacturers will sell you whatever you want. You ask to buy crap they sell you crap. They will also manufacture and sell you Apple phones, computers, routers, appliances and now automobiles of the highest quality. I have worked with Chinese manufacturers for many years and I have found them to be just as capable and as honest as western suppliers.

All this is plain bullshit and I am tired of all this anti-Chinese prejudice which comes up in every thread where China is mentioned. People who have no idea of how commerce works, how things are, and just repeat tired prejudiced cliches which make them feel better. "If the other guys are gaining on us it must be because they are being dishonest."

Fuck all that. I'm out of here. Again.

[SteveThackery]

I never knew a country was capable of doing such things. 
It is the people in a country that do things, so you can only be talking about the Chinese people in this case, and it will only be a portion of the people there that are "frauds".

I would say it is actually the Chinese state that sets the culture in which Chinese businesses operate. I'm sure you understood that, really.

I think there is a strong sense of "other" in China about the West. Also, probably a sense of resentment about how the West has dominated the world for so long. These, plus other factors, probably let Chinese manufacturers feel empowered, even emboldened, to think of Western customers as people they can treat with a degree of disdain or even derision.  I think the Chinese state brainwashes its citizens to think this way, not least because the West must not appear too attractive to the Chinese population, as this could undermine the state's iron grip on power.

The power we have handed China scares me. Not because of Chinese people, but because the Chinese state shares none of our hard fought for values of democracy, freedom, the rule of law, liberalism..... If China could it would rule the world and impose its values everywhere, just as Britain did with its empire. But Chinese state values are scary: deep, deep oppression and state control everywhere. Read up about the Chinese state's "social credit", and feel the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

And now the UK has to go cap in hand to China, begging them to build us a nuclear power station.

We deserve whatever comes our way. It was greed, and only greed, that outsourced our manufacturing to China. In the end we want endless new toys, and we want them cheap. The 21st century will be the Chinese century, just as the 20th was the American century and the 19th, the British century.

[SteveThackery]

It is not the responsibility of the Chinese government to check if the goods exported meet the standards of the destination country but rather it is the responsibility of the destination country to control that imports meet their standards. Just like it is not the responsibility of the Australian government to check if the goods exported meet the standards of the destination country but rather it is the responsibility of the destination country to control that imports meet their standards.

I don't think this is right, is it? You are talking about self-certification, and it was introduced specifically to avoid the importers having to check every product for compliance. Think of how many products come into the country from China - making the importers responsible for checking compliance of every different product with all the relevant standards is ridiculous. Impossible, actually. Self-certification is based on trust, but backed up by a big hammer: in the EU, at least, the directors of the certifying company are personally liable for misuse of certification marks. This was innovative law when it came in: up until then, companies were sued, not individuals. It marked a sea change in EU law.

Now of course this does not apply to Chinese companies. You can forget fining or jailing the directors of a Chinese company, because their government ensures they are untouchable.

I agree that the Chinese government is not responsible for the products coming out of a Chinese factory. But the government DOES set the business culture, and it DOES make it almost impossible to seek compensation or retribution for non-compliant products.

I've bought various things directly from China, not via a UK importer. Many times I have a good experience, but sometimes I get scammed and receive a two dollar plastic toy, rather than the 20 dollar product I wanted. And I know, beyond doubt, that there is no chance whatsoever of getting recompense. In fact it's usually impossible to pin down who it was you actually paid. Company names come and go, addresses change, correspondence is invariably ignored, and the supplier is effectively untouchable, assuming you could even find them. The suppliers know this.

Of course, it's a different story for big western companies like Microsoft and Apple: their relationships with Chinese suppliers is much more equitable and they do have the power to get exactly what they want from the manufacturers. And it proves beyond doubt that some Chinese companies, at least, are capable of producing top class quality products. Maybe better than we in the west can do.

[SteveThackery]

In Europe some goods are stopped at the border if they are not compliant and other times they are confiscated at warehouses. The Chinese government has zero responsibility in this. If the importer bought non-compliant crap then the importer is responsible. And if the importer was defrauded he can sue his supplier in China. The reality is that importers buy junk because consumers will buy junk and then we all turn around and blame the Chinese government because some Chinese seller sold us junk when we knew full well we were buying junk because we paid junk price.

As I have said, there's no chance AT All of importers being equipped to test every product against the dozens of EU regulations applicable. It's absurd. Think about it - specialist test houses are required to check for electrical safety, EMC compliance, WEEE compliance, etc. That's why the EU introduced self-certification and the CE mark.

The original crime isn't an importer buying cheap Chinese power supplies, the crime is someone in China putting the CE mark on something they know to be non-compliant.

[SteveThackery]

All this is plain bullshit and I am tired of all this anti-Chinese prejudice which comes up in every thread where China is mentioned. People who have no idea of how commerce works, how things are, and just repeat tired prejudiced cliches which make them feel better. "If the other guys are gaining on us it must be because they are being dishonest."

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be anti- two things that happen too often with products coming from China: deliberately CE marking unsafe products; and counterfeiting products. They do a lot of both.

None of this detracts from the exceptionally good work they can do when a big commercial entity in the West engages with a Chinese supplier. It's a different story then.

I have a theory: if a Western company has a brand of value, like Microsoft or Apple, then you know that they will absolutely nail down the suppliers and manufacturers whatever country they are in, and those manufacturers know it, too. But a lot of stuff we buy from China is basically no-brand or never-heard-of-it brand, and that is where the risk of getting non-compliant stuff becomes very real.

[IanB]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be anti- two things that happen too often with products coming from China: deliberately CE marking unsafe products; and counterfeiting products. They do a lot of both.

China marks products with the "China Export" mark. This says nothing about safety, it simply states the product originated in China.

The China Export mark is different in appearance from the Conformité Européenne mark, although it is likely no accident they are similar.

I think this says something about Chinese culture. They are taking the piss out of gullible westerners by using a mark that is similar enough that people might be confused, but different enough that anyone paying attention will notice.

[SteveThackery]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be anti- two things that happen too often with products coming from China: deliberately CE marking unsafe products; and counterfeiting products. They do a lot of both.

China marks products with the "China Export" mark. This says nothing about safety, it simply states the product originated in China.

The China Export mark is different in appearance from the Conformité Européenne mark, although it is likely no accident they are similar.

I think this says something about Chinese culture. They are taking the piss out of gullible westerners by using a mark that is similar enough that people might be confused, but different enough that anyone paying attention will notice.

I'm well aware of that story, but I don't believe it. I think it was a genuine (but careless) attempt at forgery. I don't believe it ever stood for "China Export" - I think that is a story that has been concocted later on, when it became widely known that it was dishonest. By pretending it stood for China Export all along, it gave them "plausible deniability": "We never meant to mislead you". Also, wherever there's the dodgy CE mark there is also "Made in China", so "China Export" is redundant.

However, I might be wrong - it's just what I think - and I agree that it continues to serve the purpose you describe.