Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?

[jadew]

Hey guys,

So... that's pretty much the question: why?

For an example see the NanoVNA and most of things that come from that chinese operation with a ham radio handle.

Why do people who seemingly know the value of good and reliable test equipment, go for things like that, which are clearly poorly designed (if you can call them that), and which are destroying the market for genuine manufacturers who really want to make a quality product. It's like buying a caliper that has the accuracy of a ruler.

Their business model is to shovel as much low cost garbage as possible, to completely undermine the competition. They can do this because unlike businesses in other countries, they don't care about warranty, so their products don't have to be good, and they don't care about regulations or IP either, which means they can make those products for pennies.

I'm kind of annoyed by this, because I've been bit by it several times already and I have suspicions that some of these sellers are also behind a recent attack against my server.

Why is this happening and how can you work against it - is it even worth it?

[SerieZ]

Everyone wants a nice Lab at Home but not every earns the £€$ to support it.
 

Work against the Free Market?
Mostly in vain, especially because you wont be able to regulate Chinese manufacturers so a big  from me.

All you can do is raise awareness to those qualified, able and wanting to listen to you. 

[jadew]

Work against the Free Market?

I wouldn't really call it a free market when there are tons of laws for me and none for them, but that's a much more difficult issue to tackle.

[SerieZ]

I agree with you, it is unfair!

Unfortunately China ignores/breaks WTO agreements left and right.

I should pay them a visit in Geneva  maybe they listen to me 

[Ed.Kloonk]

Hey guys,

So... that's pretty much the question: why?

For an example see the NanoVNA and most of things that come from that chinese operation with a ham radio handle.

Why do people who seemingly know the value of good and reliable test equipment, go for things like that, which are clearly poorly designed (if you can call them that), and which are destroying the market for genuine manufacturers who really want to make a quality product. It's like buying a caliper that has the accuracy of a ruler.

Their business model is to shovel as much low cost garbage as possible, to completely undermine the competition. They can do this because unlike businesses in other countries, they don't care about warranty, so their products don't have to be good, and they don't care about regulations or IP either, which means they can make those products for pennies.

I'm kind of annoyed by this, because I've been bit by it several times already and I have suspicions that some of these sellers are also behind a recent attack against my server.

Why is this happening and how can you work against it - is it even worth it?

I know that you can get quality stuff from China, if that is your actual requirement as a parts buyer.

However, in my part of the world we have systematic and relentless monopolistic behaviour by local retailers who import a small selection of products at the lowest price possible and resell it to the consumer at an over inflated price under the guise of customer protection under Australian consumer law.

And on the few occasions when a method to circumvent this by attempting to bypass the local mid level rip off, the retailers respond by lobbying the govt with the excuse that buying from China directly bypasses import duties/sales tax.

The situation will not change while ever the big retailers continue to have secret talks with whichever govt is in power so that they can all slice up the pie.

[ogden]

For an example see the NanoVNA and most of things that come from that chinese operation with a ham radio handle.

Why do people who seemingly know the value of good and reliable test equipment, go for things like that, which are clearly poorly designed (if you can call them that),

NanoVNA is not poorly designed. Design of original NanoVNA hardware is pretty good considering components used. Chinese did not design Nanovna. Eddy555 is from Japan.  Both NanoVNA and $7 LCR / Component Tester started as hobby projects. Authors did not even dream of how popular their project will become.

and which are destroying the market for genuine manufacturers who really want to make a quality product.

LOL, no. With same success you can say that Daewoo is destroying RollsRoyce market

It's like buying a caliper that has the accuracy of a ruler.

LOL, no. NanoVNA do not even pretend to be caliper. Those who buy 40$ NanoVNA or 7$ LCR meter *never* expect performance of "proper instruments" that cost most likely hundred times more.

[edit] You get what you pay for and people happen to know that - no worries.

[langwadt]

Hey guys,

So... that's pretty much the question: why?

For an example see the NanoVNA and most of things that come from that chinese operation with a ham radio handle.

Why do people who seemingly know the value of good and reliable test equipment, go for things like that, which are clearly poorly designed (if you can call them that), and which are destroying the market for genuine manufacturers who really want to make a quality product. It's like buying a caliper that has the accuracy of a ruler.

Their business model is to shovel as much low cost garbage as possible, to completely undermine the competition. They can do this because unlike businesses in other countries, they don't care about warranty, so their products don't have to be good, and they don't care about regulations or IP either, which means they can make those products for pennies.

I'm kind of annoyed by this, because I've been bit by it several times already and I have suspicions that some of these sellers are also behind a recent attack against my server.

Why is this happening and how can you work against it - is it even worth it?

I know that you can get quality stuff from China, if that is your actual requirement as a parts buyer.

However, in my part of the world we have systematic and relentless monopolistic behaviour by local retailers who import a small selection of products at the lowest price possible and resell it to the consumer at an over inflated price under the guise of customer protection under Australian consumer law.

And on the few occasions when a method to circumvent this by attempting to bypass the local mid level rip off, the retailers respond by lobbying the govt with the excuse that buying from China directly bypasses import duties/sales tax.

The situation will not change while ever the big retailers continue to have secret talks with whichever govt is in power so that they can all slice up the pie.

they import what people want to buy, if you don't think import yourself ....

it is hardly unfair to request the direct import play by the same rules (tax and duties) as local stores

[Ed.Kloonk]

Hey guys,

So... that's pretty much the question: why?

For an example see the NanoVNA and most of things that come from that chinese operation with a ham radio handle.

Why do people who seemingly know the value of good and reliable test equipment, go for things like that, which are clearly poorly designed (if you can call them that), and which are destroying the market for genuine manufacturers who really want to make a quality product. It's like buying a caliper that has the accuracy of a ruler.

Their business model is to shovel as much low cost garbage as possible, to completely undermine the competition. They can do this because unlike businesses in other countries, they don't care about warranty, so their products don't have to be good, and they don't care about regulations or IP either, which means they can make those products for pennies.

I'm kind of annoyed by this, because I've been bit by it several times already and I have suspicions that some of these sellers are also behind a recent attack against my server.

Why is this happening and how can you work against it - is it even worth it?

I know that you can get quality stuff from China, if that is your actual requirement as a parts buyer.

However, in my part of the world we have systematic and relentless monopolistic behaviour by local retailers who import a small selection of products at the lowest price possible and resell it to the consumer at an over inflated price under the guise of customer protection under Australian consumer law.

And on the few occasions when a method to circumvent this by attempting to bypass the local mid level rip off, the retailers respond by lobbying the govt with the excuse that buying from China directly bypasses import duties/sales tax.

The situation will not change while ever the big retailers continue to have secret talks with whichever govt is in power so that they can all slice up the pie.

they import what people want to buy, if you don't think import yourself ....

it is hardly unfair to request the direct import play by the same rules (tax and duties) as local stores

How retail works is not importing what people want to buy, it's about importing what you can sell in bulk. I'm not disagreeing with you however.

[jadew]

NanoVNA is not poorly designed.

Yes it is. The harmonic content makes it unusable for anything more than passive networks, and even there, it will have very poor performance. Most people who buy it don't realize just how bad it is.

LOL, no. With same success you can say that Daewoo is destroying RollsRoyce market

Except Daewoo has to play by the same rules. You can't order a Chinese car directly and not having it go through the same rigorous testing a regular car goes through.

It's like buying a caliper that has the accuracy of a ruler.

LOL, no. NanoVNA do not even pretend to be caliper. Those who buy 40$ NanoVNA or 7$ LCR meter *never* expect performance of "proper instruments" that cost most likely hundred times more.

Ok... so why buy it then? I wouldn't buy a caliper that doesn't work.

[OwO]

Nah. For a hobbyist without lots of money the alternative is NO test equipment.

Original NanoVNA is actually really accurate if you keep it in fundamental mode, and S11 measurements after warmup are almost comparable to the old HP stuff. Have you checked out the performance yourself? Measuring passive components are maybe 90% of what a hobbyist will use it for, and even for active components the square wave isn't necessarily a problem if the power is kept low enough. It's not a new concept - there have been several very similar open source si5351 based VNA designs and all the Chinese have done is productionize it. What laws and regulations are you talking about that is preventing you from doing the same thing from your country?

Current NanoVNA variants are still a long way from encroaching on the market for real network analyzers, but in the next year (maybe by V3) the plan is to get up to performance comparable to the Copper Mountain VNAs (but at 1/10th the cost). There is nothing shady about what we are doing and I think it's all fair competition. OwOComm additionally has a commitment to open source hardware and will release PCB layout files at every product release.

[ogden]

NanoVNA is not poorly designed.

Yes it is. The harmonic content makes it unusable for anything more than passive networks, and even there, it will have very poor performance.

Have you actually tried it to say it have very poor performance? Seems you do not get what I am saying. For given BOM/price it is well built. You can't have VNA with pure sine signal source for 40$. You are getting very good price/performance out of NanoVNA.

Most people who buy it don't realize just how bad it is.

Explain how bad it is - in more details.

LOL, no. NanoVNA do not even pretend to be caliper. Those who buy 40$ NanoVNA or 7$ LCR meter *never* expect performance of "proper instruments" that cost most likely hundred times more.

Ok... so why buy it then? I wouldn't buy a caliper that doesn't work.

Because contrary to what you say it works and is very useful. You just have to know it's limitations. Have you actually tried to say it does not work?

[jadew]

Nah. For a hobbyist without lots of money the alternative is NO test equipment.

That is not true. Someone who's willing to use a VNA that doesn't work, has plenty of better options in the used/broken market.

Original NanoVNA is actually really accurate if you keep it in fundamental mode, and S11 measurements after warmup are almost comparable to the old HP stuff. Have you checked out the performance yourself? Measuring passive components are maybe 90% of what a hobbyist will use it for, and even for active components the square wave isn't necessarily a problem if the power is kept low enough.

Really? Then I would like to refer you to this: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nano-vna/msg2783756/#msg2783756

Where you are quoted saying the following:

Take what I say with a grain of salt because I'm on the NanoVNA V2 design team, but the original NanoVNA (everything you can find on ebay/aliexpress right now) has severe accuracy problems above 300MHz: https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/message/6484

What happens is that in harmonic mode the DUT's response to the fundamental frequency bleeds in, and what you are measuring isn't the impedance at the frequency shown, with S11 errors of 3dB in the above plots. It will show perfect calibration but show you wrong impedances once you measure something other than the cal kit.

What laws and regulations are you talking about that is preventing you from doing the same thing from your country?

Warranty law, RoHS law, WEEE law for starters. There's a lot more than this.

Current NanoVNA variants are still a long way from encroaching on the market for real network analyzers, but in the next year (maybe by V3) the plan is to get up to performance comparable to the Copper Mountain VNAs (but at 1/10th the cost). There is nothing shady about what we are doing and I think it's all fair competition. OwOComm additionally has a commitment to open source hardware and will release PCB layout files at every product release.

Like the other products I was talking about, they encroach on the market by selling a too good to be true product, to a customer who then loses the appetite for that said product, and often not because he got what he wanted. The customer loses, manufacturers who make good products lose, future customers also lose, because they might not get to see a good product on the market anymore. The only winner here is the chinese seller who sold something nobody else would have dared to sell.


PS: @ogden, this reply is for you too. Hope it answers your questions.

[ogden]

Nah. For a hobbyist without lots of money the alternative is NO test equipment.

That is not true. Someone who's willing to use a VNA that doesn't work, has plenty of better options in the used/broken market.

Show where we can buy used 300MHz VNA for 40$. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

PS: @ogden, this reply is for you too. Hope it answers your questions.

So it seems like you do not have experience with NanoVNA, yet have strong opinion about how bad it is. Kinda reminds me 60Hz versus 144Hz computer screen refresh debate where strongest opponents who said that 144Hz is just marketing gimmick were those who have no actual experience of comparing two.

Just an example from same thread you were referring to:

[OwO]

Really? Then I would like to refer you to this: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nano-vna/msg2783756/#msg2783756

Yeah, there I said accuracy is bad above 300MHz (harmonics mode). Here I said S11 accuracy is good if you keep it to fundamental mode (below 300MHz). Calibration removes errors except linearity and noise, which are easy to check for: noise is obvious; linearity is most easily checked with a length of low loss coax (making at least one circle around smith chart), or simply calibrating at the end of a long cable and then measuring a short, low loss coax.

Most of these are RoHS compliant. When living in "the west" I've had better luck with aliexpress dispute system than I've had with retailer warranty, but YMMV. I don't think aliexpress sellers can really easily get away with selling junk that doesn't work. If your country regulates local businesses tough but gives imports a free ride, it's up to your country to fix that. China has nothing to do with this and does not meddle in other country's internal affairs.

[Bud]

You do not need to own a harmonic based architecture  VNA to know its deficiencies. Everything OP said is true.

@OP: Regarding the question in the Subj line, it is a basic phenomenon of human greed, people have to make make efforts to overcome it.

[ogden]

You do not need to own a harmonic based architecture  VNA to know its deficiencies. Everything OP said is true.

Why you guys are so obsessed about fact that nanoVNA in it's harmonics mode (above 300Mhz) have poor performance?  That is no secret BTW. Up-to 300MHz it works pretty well.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

I don't think chinese gear is garbage any more. Look at the esp32 for example, there's nothing like it. Or the Micsig STO1104C, pray tell what western world scope is like that. They make things that for the price just can't be made in the western world. I was looking the other day for a PoE chip, and the SiLabs evaluation board (*) is 70 something $, for that money I can buy 17 complete PoE ready to go chinese isolated splitters, complete with case and cables.

(*) https://www.silabs.com/power-over-ethernet/powered-devices/class-3-15w

[SilverSolder]

Capitalism 101:  "If you don't like it, don't buy it"

[jadew]

Regarding aliexpress dispute system, let's not kid ourselves, after you've marked the transaction as complete or the protection time is out, you are done.

Capitalism 101:  "If you don't like it, don't buy it"

That's true, but again, this is not a free market and I'd like to hear about ideas on how to work against this as a business. And by this, I mean the fact that the chinese seller has all the incentives to be disingenuous, cut corners and lie to the customer, while the local manufacturers have to play by the book.

For example, a local company wouldn't risk selling something without thoroughly testing it and wouldn't market specifications that they can't verify, because if they did that and invested in production, and then sold their product to 1000 people and then, 6 months down the line they all find out that the product has a critical flaw that makes it more or less useless for most of what it was specified, then maybe 700 people will return their products and that will bankrupt the manufacturer. A chinese business doesn't have this issues, and that's why they get away with shoveling garbage.

So, what you're fighting with as a business, is not only cheap products, but bad products that are marketed as cheap good products. How do you combat this?

[BravoV]

Capitalism 101:  "If you don't like it, don't buy it"

Problem here is ... "I dont like it, but somehow I keep buying it, hence I whine a lot ... 

[ogden]

So, what you're fighting with as a business, is not only cheap products, but bad products that are marketed as cheap good products. How do you combat this?

It is already said million times: don't buy. In general I agree that there are many products that are made to defraud naiive buyers. Unfortunately you picked one of worst possible examples (NanoVNA) to prove your point because that product actually have good price/performance ratio.

p.s. Where is used 300MHz VNA for 40$? 

[Bud]

Many EEVBlog forum members are guilty to have heard instinct. It only takes a prominent forum member to make a post about some wonderful piece of cheap shit he got and everyone will rush to buy same shit and empty the sellers stock in no time. Good for the seller.

[magic]

Many EEVBlog forum members are guilty to have heard instinct.

$10 process calibrator?

I had a good laugh when I first saw the video about it being a POS and only then the original thread

[Kilrah]

So, what you're fighting with as a business, is not only cheap products, but bad products that are marketed as cheap good products. How do you combat this?

That is not an issue. Someone who isn't able to figure out and take the cheap products for what they are is never going to buy your good expensive one.
There is no such thing as someone being discouraged from getting a given tool because a cheap one didn't have the required performance.
If they still need the tool and can afford the good one that's assured to get them what they need they'll get it.

But I don't see so much competition there. In the hobby market most of those who buy the cheap stuff would not buy the good expensive tool in the first place if it was the only thing that was available. They get the cheap one becasue unlike the other they can afford it and the amount of cashe that gets immobilized into it is reasonable compared to the usage they'll be making of it, and the good one often does way too much compared to their actual needs.

I've bought a couple dozen cheap tools and I've never been disappointed, I've actually been positively surprised more than once. But then again I looked up in advance what they were capable of, so if it's such a problem I guess that's too much to ask now?

Also the Chinese stuff often has somewhat "gimmicky" features but that can actually turn out to be quite useful sometimes and that "serious" manufacturers would never consider becasue they're not "professional" enough.

[jadew]

So, what you're fighting with as a business, is not only cheap products, but bad products that are marketed as cheap good products. How do you combat this?

It is already said million times: don't buy. In general I agree that there are many products that are made to defraud naiive buyers. Unfortunately you picked one of worst possible examples (NanoVNA) to prove your point because that product actually have good price/performance ratio.

p.s. Where is used 300MHz VNA for 40$? 

You keep pushing the idea that it's food from the heavens, when I just showed you that it's not. Click those links, see for yourself. Also, it's marketed as a 900 MHz VNA, not a 300 MHz one, and no, it's not great under 300 MHz either.

Regarding the $40 VNA, I'd like to underline the fact that you don't have a $40 VNA that works either, and yours can't be fixed.

I actually got a 6 GHz VNA for ~$200 several years back. It was a fixer-upper but I got it working.

So, what you're fighting with as a business, is not only cheap products, but bad products that are marketed as cheap good products. How do you combat this?

That is not an issue. Someone who isn't able to figure out and take the cheap products for what they are is never going to buy your good expensive one.
There is no such thing as someone being discouraged from getting a given tool because a cheap one didn't have the required performance.

I don't think that's true. It's clear that these purchases are an effect of impulse buying (otherwise they'd buy something from a reputable manufacturer). This means that the impulse buyer, if the impulse is strong enough, could actually buy a quality product that would serve him well and help the market.

On the other hand, maybe it's better for the impulse buyers themselves to just buy cheap stuff, but that's not as clear, because he's basically conned into it, and it's hard to make a case for that.