Making reverse engineered Altium designs public

[eecook]

Sounds really cool!
I'd be keen to see schematics of anything interesting that you share.

Would you like to see anything in particular?

[ebastler]

Here's a sample view of a reverse engineering job I did where all 4 layers where revealed, aligned and fake coloured using GIMP.

That's pretty cool indeed. But it is also the one thing about reverse engineering that could get you in trouble if published, in my opinion.

Copies of original schematics or PCB layouts, provided that they are not fully obvious/utilitarian in nature, are protected by copyright IMO. And that protects the "artwork" itself, not the functionality or the product. So publishing the artwork already constitutes a copyright violation, even without anybody copying the product.

I would think that reverse-engineered (i.e. redrawn) schematics are actually the more valuable information for the technically curious. Add placement annotations, and they are very helpful for debugging too. Uncovering the PCB layout is just your means to an end, namely to reconstructing the schematic; if I were you, I would not publish the layout.

[eecook]

Here's a sample view of a reverse engineering job I did where all 4 layers where revealed, aligned and fake coloured using GIMP.

That's pretty cool indeed. But it is also the one thing about reverse engineering that could get you in trouble if published, in my opinion.

Copies of original schematics or PCB layouts, provided that they are not fully obvious/utilitarian in nature, are protected by copyright IMO. And that protects the "artwork" itself, not the functionality or the product. So publishing the artwork already constitutes a copyright violation, even without anybody copying the product.

I would think that reverse-engineered (i.e. redrawn) schematics are actually the more valuable information for the technically curious. Add placement annotations, and they are very helpful for debugging too. Uncovering the PCB layout is just your means to an end, namely to reconstructing the schematic; if I were you, I would not publish the layout.

Looks cool right???
Absolutely, I think that is the smartest way to go about it. Also I was thinking that maybe posting a video describing the method (using an open source board) would be useful. It is actually not hard, just time consuming.

[ebastler]

Looks cool right???
Absolutely, I think that is the smartest way to go about it. Also I was thinking that maybe posting a video describing the method (using an open source board) would be useful. It is actually not hard, just time consuming.

That would be perfect! 

That's actually the most intriguing thing about the reverse-engineered layouts: "How the heck did he get those?!" I will definitely watch your video! 

[TerraHertz]

It's roughly the same method I use. For 4 layers I just sand paper the pcb (with water)...if you are gentle and wait long enough, the inner layers will reveal themselves.

Ouch. Sounds really painful, and also destroys the device. All the reversing I've done (in the last few years) was on devices I wanted to repair or mod, so destruction wasn't an option. And I have another one coming up (a big UPS) where I'll need to reverse engineer a couple of pretty large PCBs, along with the firmware. (Fingers crossed the binaries can be extracted.)  That too is a 'no spares available' case, where I can't destroy the boards.

By the way, you always have the option to upload the files anonymously to some fileshare service (eg Mega) then 'discover them' and post the links to a discussion thread. But this way you don't get kudos points.

Something I would like to see, is reverse engineering docs for a variety of tablet computing devices. Of a vintage that is fairly recent (so decent graphics and CPU power) but old enough to be cheaply available second hand (or free.)
The aim being to jailbreak them from the original manufacturer's OS and end up with some Linux variant running only an open source cut-down browser. Allowing use as a general networkable display device via html5/Canvas/JS, touchscreen, etc.

Many tablet devices are really nice hardware designs, spoiled by stupid OS & apps gimmickry and corporate image bullshit. Would be great to be able to repurpose them as dedicated control panel things.

Or maybe someone has already done that?

[Rerouter]

I again use Gimp for reverse engineering, but I use the path tool to draw out all the connections as I go having each layer on a new path layer with a different color, I can then paint out the paths on verification layers, and change them to black as I draw them out on the layout program

Personally, Stuff i reverse engineer, I generally am modernizing things at the same time, so most of the time it doesnt end up being the same device, rather work on the same principles.

[julianhigginson]

Would you like to see anything in particular?

not in particular, but I'd always be keen to have a stickybeak at the schematics and layout (though you probably can't share the layout without being sued) of anything high volume... bonus points if it's in Altium, because that's what I use.. :-)

Just looking at things and seeing other people's approaches is eye opening.

[EEVblog]

This may actually fall into the category of "it's no fun getting sued for doing something legal".
Reproducing a circuit schematic from scratch has been found to not be covered by copyright: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=ecbb24af-4a0a-4971-9022-2edfeac253eb
Doesn't stop a large company's legal team suing you vexatiously if they really don't like you doing it.

Correct.
Reverse engineering a schematic is going to lead to an entirely different (albeit electrically equivalent) to the original schematic. You can't copyright electrical connectivity, that falls under the area of patents if anything.
PCB foil patterns on the other hand, by necessity, would be a direct reproduction, and that's murky.

But as always, you can get sued at any time for anything. Doesn't mean they'll win, but they can bankrupt you trying.

[amyk]

It's roughly the same method I use. For 4 layers I just sand paper the pcb (with water)...if you are gentle and wait long enough, the inner layers will reveal themselves.

Ouch. Sounds really painful, and also destroys the device. All the reversing I've done (in the last few years) was on devices I wanted to repair or mod, so destruction wasn't an option. And I have another one coming up (a big UPS) where I'll need to reverse engineer a couple of pretty large PCBs, along with the firmware. (Fingers crossed the binaries can be extracted.)  That too is a 'no spares available' case, where I can't destroy the boards.

From what I've gathered about the Chinese companies who can reverse-engineer PCBs non-destructively (although they need to remove all the components first to do it), they use a machine with a similar principle to the "bed of nails" testers --- a camera detects where the pads are, and two probes fly around measuring continuity to generate a netlist.

I suppose something similar could be done manually without removing components, by using an extremely low AC voltage (so as not to activate semiconductor junctions) and measuring resistance.

[TerraHertz]

I suppose something similar could be done manually without removing components, by using an extremely low AC voltage (so as not to activate semiconductor junctions) and measuring resistance.

Manual 'all to all' continuity testing is infeasible, because it's not humanly possible to do something so repetitive but flawlessly. So an error probability would be present, meaning you couldn't trust the schematic to be complete. Which rather invalidates the whole process.
An automated process is a different matter though, and a valid approach. Just too high an entry barrier for hobbyists.

Also, without removing components there could still be problems. Some components have very low resistances, similar to long thin tracks. Fuses, current sense resistors, polyfuses, relays, etc.

I like the sanding-down idea. Trying to think of a suitable target board to try it, but so far, nothing. Something I have or can cheaply obtain multiple identical units of, that I'd like schematics for - enough to justify the effort...

[David Chamberlain]

Frightening machine warning

https://youtu.be/fjmjYVNuLEE

[TerraHertz]

That thing would give spiders nightmares.

Really interesting that the test includes a mini-jackhammer, hammering BGA chips. Presumably to try to reveal any intermittent solder ball joints.

[julianhigginson]

I thought that might be some kind of field sensing probe?