Author Topic: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?  (Read 23007 times)

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Offline HwAoRrDkTopic starter

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I was looking for some parts on LCSC today and it got me wondering where all the weird terminology comes from that the Chinese use to describe in English certain types of electronic components (or their attributes). You come across it in datasheets, parts catalogues, AliExpress listings, and so forth.

One of these terms is "brick nogging". They use this name to describe many types of surface-mount headers and connectors. But that name makes almost no sense in the context of such a component! ??? Brick nogging appears to be a very old construction technique where bricks are used to infill the spaces in the wooden frame of a building, and in general (at least in British English) a "nogging" is a horizontal bracing piece of wood used in a wooden wall frame or floor joists. The only (tenuous) link I can possibly imagine is that of the slight similarity to the staggered pattern of brickwork for SMD legs that alternate between sides of the part along its length.

Another one is "tube", which refers to transistors, but also LEDs or LED assemblies (e.g. 7-segment displays). That's perfectly understandable for the former, as of course tubes are what predated transistors, so I can see how the terminology stuck. But for LEDs? One possible explanation for that I found in Bunnie Huang's book The Essential Guide to Electronics in Shenzhen, where he explains a little about technical language in Chinese. The common term for transistor is 三级管, or "three-pole tube", and similarly for diodes 二极管, or "two-pole tube". So I guess it follows that because an LED is a form of diode, so they are also "tubes".

Anyone come across any other weird and seemingly-inexplicable forms of electronics vocabulary eminating from China?
 
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Offline retiredfeline

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2022, 03:24:12 am »
They often refer to soldering as welding because that is han teh (weld iron) whereas soldering is han sik (weld tin, the element not the container).
 

Offline bg8aak

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2022, 07:54:33 am »
not 三级管 but 三极管
极 means "pin"
 :-DD
 

Offline niconiconi

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2022, 07:56:24 pm »
One of these terms is "brick nogging". They use this name to describe many types of surface-mount headers and connectors. But that name makes almost no sense in the context of such a component! ???

As a native Chinese speaker, "brick nogging" is gibberish and completely incomprehensible to me. :-DD  I was curious and just looked it up, apparently it was a mistranslation of "立贴".

"立" means "standing" or "vertical", and "贴" is the short-hand for "贴片", which means "pick-and-place" or "SMD", so it just means "vertical SMD".

One thing to know about Chinese is that one can create almost entirely arbitrary abbreviations and short-hands by combining characters from different words, a bit similar to Soviet and Russian government agency names like GosPlan, RosCosmos, or RosKomNadzor.

The result is often not found in the dictionary, or by coincidence, they may clash with another existing but obscure word in the dictionary. In both cases, machine translation would produce incomprehensible results. For example, in this case it happens to form a word from architectural history.

Quote
Another one is "tube", which refers to transistors, but also LEDs or LED assemblies (e.g. 7-segment displays). That's perfectly understandable for the former, as of course tubes are what predated transistors, so I can see how the terminology stuck. [...] So I guess it follows that because an LED is a form of diode, so they are also "tubes".

Yep. The term "diode" was originally translated to "two-electrode tube". And after the semiconductor and light-emitting versions came into existence, the same terminology is reused. So all diodes are known as "two-electrode tubes" although the "tube" part has lost its meaning. Similarly, transistors were known as "crystal triodes" and "semiconductor triodes", and today it's still the standard terminology in China.

When you think about it, it's actually quite strange how the term "diode" is a generic name for both vacuum and semiconductor rectifiers in English, but the same pattern didn't apply for three-terminal devices - "triode" is exclusive to vacuum tubes, and the semiconductor version got its own name.  Of course, it was because crystal rectifiers were as old as tubes, while transistors were not invented until many decades later.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 09:07:46 pm by niconiconi »
 

Offline niconiconi

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2022, 08:05:21 pm »
not 三级管 but 三极管
极 means "pin"
 :-DD

In this case, "极" is a short-hand for "电极", or "eletrode". Just like how the suffix "-ode" in "diode" and "triode" came from "eletrode" in English. The terminology was originally a faithful translation.
 

Offline niconiconi

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2022, 08:24:49 pm »
They often refer to soldering as welding because that is han teh (weld iron) whereas soldering is han sik (weld tin, the element not the container).

Welding, soldering and blazing are not distinguished outside technical fields, all metal-joining techniques are known as "焊接" or "焊". Hence the mistranslation.
 

Online JohanH

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2022, 08:30:31 pm »

One thing to know about Chinese is that one can create almost entire arbitrary abbreviations and short-hands by combination characters from different words, a bit similar to Soviet and Russian government agency names like GosPlan, RosCosmos, or RosKomNadzor.

The result is often not found in the dictionary, or by coincidence, they may clash with another existing but obscure word in the dictionary. In both cases, machine translation would produce incomperhensive results. For example, in this case it happens to form a word from architectural history.


This is interesting and makes sense. Thanks for this explanation.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2022, 08:53:16 pm »
When you think about it, it's actually quite strange how the term "diode" is a generic name for both vacuum and semiconductor rectifiers in English, but the same pattern didn't apply for three-terminal devices - "triode" is exclusive to vacuum tubes, and the semiconductor version got its own name.  Of course, it was because crystal rectifiers were as old as tubes, while transistors were not invented until many decades later.

It is strange, but it's down to marketing.  "Transistor" akin to "trans- resistor", coined by one of the engineers at Bell, would sell the product better than "Triode" which already existed as a component.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2022, 10:41:47 pm »
I thought transistor was short for transfer resistor.

Edit: wiki says the following:

Quote
Etymology
Bell Telephone Laboratories needed a generic name for the new invention: "Semiconductor Triode", "Surface States Triode", "Crystal Triode", "Solid Triode" and "Iotatron" were all considered, but "Transistor," coined by John R. Pierce, was the clear winner of an internal ballot (owing in part to the affinity that Bell engineers had developed for the suffix "-istor"). The rationale for the name is described in the following extract from the company's Technical Memorandum calling for votes:

Quote
Transistor. This is an abbreviated combination of the words "transconductance" or "transfer", and "varistor". The device logically belongs in the varistor family, and has the transconductance or transfer impedance of a device having gain, so that this combination is descriptive.

— Bell Telephone Laboratories — Technical Memorandum (May 28, 1948)
Pierce recalled the naming somewhat differently:

Quote
The way I provided the name, was to think of what the device did. And at that time, it was supposed to be the dual of the vacuum tube. The vacuum tube had transconductance, so the transistor would have 'transresistance.' And the name should fit in with the names of other devices, such as varistor and thermistor. And. . . I suggested the name 'transistor.'

— John R. Pierce, interviewed for PBS show "Transistorized!"
The Nobel Foundation states that the term is a combination of the words "transfer" and "resistor".
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 10:45:03 pm by tooki »
 

Offline HwAoRrDkTopic starter

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2022, 01:45:09 am »
While on the subject of transistor naming, I just remembered another one I've come across in a couple of datasheets for Chinese chips: "audion".

According to a Wikipedia article, Audion was the trademark name of the first vacuum tube triode, invented by Lee de Forest in 1906. Seems like a very idiosyncratic word to use as the translation of "transistor". I suppose it must have come from the Chinese usage of "crystal triode" as one name for a transistor. Someone probably started with that, chopped off "crystal" to avoid confusion with, well, crystals, then looked up "triode" and found some article about the history of the aforementioned first manifestation of the triode. Weird! :)
 

Offline niconiconi

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2022, 01:57:07 am »
While on the subject of transistor naming, I just remembered another one I've come across in a couple of datasheets for Chinese chips: "audion". [...] Someone probably started with that, chopped off "crystal" to avoid confusion with, well, crystals, then looked up "triode" and found some article about the history of the aforementioned first manifestation of the triode. Weird!

The modifier "crystal" or "semiconductor" is usually omitted. Nowadays, "triode" refers to the semiconductor version by default, just like the use of "diode". The original word was almost certainly just "triode", it's just a case of bad machine translation with a dubious dictionary.  :-DD
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 02:01:34 am by niconiconi »
 

Offline niconiconi

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2022, 01:58:10 am »
Also, I just stamped upon this Bell Labs document online, on the original considerations of naming this device. Quite interesting, I didn't know there was already a vacuum tube device called the "transitrons", or the suggestion that "diode", "triode", "tetrode" to be used as additional modifiers to describe a transistor (even after transistor became the standard name of this device).

Terminology for Semiconductor Triodes - Committee Recommendation - Case 38139-8. May 28, 1948. https://web.archive.org/web/20080528164454if_/http://users.arczip.com/rmcgarra2/namememo.gif

Quote
[...]

On the subject of a generic name to be applied to this class of devices, the committee is unable to make an unanimous recommendation. A discussion of some proposed names is given here.

- Semiconductor triode. This is considered to be a fairly good name, being satisfactorily descriptive, but a shorter name would be preferable. The "triode" describes the three element device; if more elements we added it might be a tetrode or pentode, for instance. A single point contact rectifier might be referred to as a semiconductor diode in line with this terminology.

- Surface States triode. This is in the same class as the first name suggested above; it is descriptive, but is not brief.

- Crystal triode. The objection to this is that the term "crystal" is usually associated with the piezoelectric types, such as quartz.

- Solid triode. This has the advantage of brevity, and is descriptive in the sense that the device may be explained by the physics of the solid state, and also that the active element is a solid rather than vacuum or gas filled. However, the word "solid" also commonly means sturdy, massive, rugged, or strong, which terms are contradictory to the actual physical characteristics of the unit.

- Iotatron. This term satisfactorily conveys the sense of a minute device, as contrasted to the previous name. However, in view of the many vacuum or gas filled devices such as thyratrons, dynatrons, transitrons, etc., it lacks the distinguishing property which would differentiate it from such devices.

- Transistor. This is an abbreviated combination of the words "transconductance" or "transfer", and "varistor". The device logically belongs in the varistor family, and has the transconductance or transfer impedance of a device having gain, so that this combination is descriptive.

If a general term ("transistor", for example) were adopted for the entire class of semiconductive devices there would be considerable merit in having additional descriptive terms for particular sub-classes. To illustrate, there might someday be a "120B transistor", which was a "germanium triode", and a "196A transistor" which was a "silicon diode", etc. A "germanium tetrode" has already been explored with some promise, and many other variations are likely to appear as time goes on.

In view of these considerations, it is the recommendation of the committee that the particular device with which we have worked so far; that is, a germanium block with two point contacts, be referred to as a germanium triode. For the purposes of this memorandum, the device will be referred to in more general terms as a semiconductor triode.

Accompanying this memorandum is a ballot. It is suggested that each person to whom the memorandum is routed, fill out the ballot and return it, in order that the resultant vote may be used by the committee as the basis of a recommendation for a generic name,

BALLOT

Designate by the numbers 1, 2 and 3, the order of your preference for the names listed below:

[    ] Semiconductor Triode
[    ] Surface States Triode
[    ] Crystal Triode
[    ] Solid Triode
[    ] Iotatron
[    ] Transistor
[    ] ___________________ (Other suggestion)
[...]
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 02:11:04 am by niconiconi »
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2022, 01:24:07 am »
The very first announcement of the discovery, before they named the invention officially, used the term "crystal amplifier". These were discovered much earlier, but never made practical untill Bell figured out how to make it commercially viable.

http://www.earlyradiohistory.us/1922amp.htm

https://makezine.com/2009/04/02/the-lost-transistor/

« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 04:28:00 am by Cyberdragon »
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Offline niconiconi

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2022, 02:46:19 am »
The very first announcement of the discovery, before they named the invention officially, used the term "crystal amplifier". These were discovered much earlier, but never made prectical untill Bell figured out how to make it commercially viable.

http://www.earlyradiohistory.us/1922amp.htm

https://makezine.com/2009/04/02/the-lost-transistor/

Russian researcher Oleg Losev also did crystal amplification in 1923 but his work was not well recognized in his lifetime. Though, Sci-Fi publisher Hugo Gernsback promoted it in his magazines, so many American amateur radio operators knew this device. These amplifiers used an operating principle different from a transistor, they're essentially negative resistance diodes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Losev#Solid-state_electronics
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2022, 08:00:39 am »
The very first announcement of the discovery, before they named the invention officially, used the term "crystal amplifier". These were discovered much earlier, but never made prectical untill Bell figured out how to make it commercially viable.

http://www.earlyradiohistory.us/1922amp.htm

https://makezine.com/2009/04/02/the-lost-transistor/

Russian researcher Oleg Losev also did crystal amplification in 1923 but his work was not well recognized in his lifetime. Though, Sci-Fi publisher Hugo Gernsback promoted it in his magazines, so many American amateur radio operators knew this device. These amplifiers used an operating principle different from a transistor, they're essentially negative resistance diodes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Losev#Solid-state_electronics

The 20s devices were more like tunnel diodes, yes, even standard galena crystals can do it. But the 1933 device did have 3 electrodes. Though I can't seem to find any info on how the device was wired to confirm or deny whether it was technically a real transistor (the make article is just basically "look at this cool thing").
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Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2022, 11:32:05 am »
As Niconiconi pointed out:

The name “transistor”  is actually     (“transconductance” + “varistor”)

How the transistor got it's name is from a Bell Labs "Ballot" in 1948:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/johngineer/6116137343/sizes/o/in/photostream/

So blame the Bell Engineers!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 11:35:06 am by Wallace Gasiewicz »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2022, 12:37:54 pm »
Several of us quoted that text 2 days ago…
 

Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2022, 01:17:23 pm »
Sorry, did not click on that particular link.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2022, 01:21:54 pm »
Sorry, did not click on that particular link.
No, I mean the text in question (not just a link to it) is literally quoted in the text of several posts:



Terminology for Semiconductor Triodes - Committee Recommendation - Case 38139-8. May 28, 1948. https://web.archive.org/web/20080528164454if_/http://users.arczip.com/rmcgarra2/namememo.gif

Quote

- Transistor. This is an abbreviated combination of the words "transconductance" or "transfer", and "varistor". The device logically belongs in the varistor family, and has the transconductance or transfer impedance of a device having gain, so that this combination is descriptive.



I thought transistor was short for transfer resistor.

Edit: wiki says the following:

Quote
Etymology

Quote
Transistor. This is an abbreviated combination of the words "transconductance" or "transfer", and "varistor". The device logically belongs in the varistor family, and has the transconductance or transfer impedance of a device having gain, so that this combination is descriptive.

— Bell Telephone Laboratories — Technical Memorandum (May 28, 1948)
 

Offline amc184

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2022, 11:14:15 pm »
One of the ones I noticed on LCSC was 'horn type' capacitors.  This was used for snap-in electrolytics, and while the leads do resemble an animal's horns, I've never heard this used in English.  That seems to have disappeared from LCSC now though, and they've just put all the snap-in capacitors with the radial leaded ones.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2022, 01:22:32 am »
Strange translations are not confined to English/Chinese & vice versa, even related languages like French/ English & German/English have brought forth their share of "howlers".

The English translations of original French manuals I used to work with had some seriously inventive efforts which made them really hard to decipher, but the best was one my brother related to me:

"This equipment is designed to operate in the 3GHz 'group of musicians playing together' "!

The German manuals offered their own challenges, often because the English translation was less complete than the original, so it became necessary to look up that manual & sort out from the original German, what was meant. (I am only an English speaker, but I always found written German easier to translate from a logical basis than French.)

One thing had me, though, with some equipment which showed a circular device on the schematic, labelled with the word "Drossel".
From where it lived, it should be an inductor, but no indication of the winding configuration was shown.
Googling, it came up with "Throttle", or "thrush" ( the bird).

Surely, German would be "Induktor" if that is what it was?

Anyhow, it seems a more obscure translation is "choke", so it was an inductor, after all!

Strangely, I had never seen anything but the official term used in other German equipment, & thought that to all intents & purposes, "choke" was as archaic in German as in English.
 
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Offline niconiconi

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2022, 05:42:19 am »
Strange translations are not confined to English/Chinese & vice versa, even related languages like French/ English & German/English have brought forth their share of "howlers".

The English translations of original French manuals I used to work with had some seriously inventive efforts which made them really hard to decipher, but the best was one my brother related to me:

"This equipment is designed to operate in the 3GHz 'group of musicians playing together' "!

 :-DD

Q: What should you do when the music from a shortwave radio is too boring?
A: Try a different band.

Quote
The German manuals offered their own challenges, often because the English translation was less complete than the original, so it became necessary to look up that manual & sort out from the original German, what was meant. (I am only an English speaker, but I always found written German easier to translate from a logical basis than French.)

One thing had me, though, with some equipment which showed a circular device on the schematic, labelled with the word "Drossel".
From where it lived, it should be an inductor, but no indication of the winding configuration was shown.
Googling, it came up with "Throttle", or "thrush" ( the bird).

Surely, German would be "Induktor" if that is what it was?

Anyhow, it seems a more obscure translation is "choke", so it was an inductor, after all!

Strangely, I had never seen anything but the official term used in other German equipment, & thought that to all intents & purposes, "choke" was as archaic in German as in English.

Speaking of archaic terms in translation, yep, it's really common. A standard term is one language can be an obscure or obsolete (though technically correct) one in another. For example, "condenser" entered many languages and became the standard term, before the English world decided to replace it with "capacitor".

Other classics include:

- capacity vs capacitance
    To be fair: older engineers still use "capacity".

- inductor vs reactor vs choke
    To be fair: reactor is still used in the electric power industry, and when inductor is used to raise impedance, it's still a choke, like "common-mode choke", "radio-frequency choke", etc. But, like many things in the world, to make it more confusing for everyone, it's also abused from time to time, like "Ringing Choke Converter".

- tension vs. potential vs. voltage
    To be fair: Modern English is the outlier here. Although it has "current" (physical quantity) and "amperage" (measured value), "power" and "wattage", but for electrical potential, both are named "voltage" today. "Tension" used to be the term but it's long obsolete. This unfortunate historical coincidence further brings confusions to variable names in formulas. In English, most use the letter V, some textbooks recognized the potential confusion (no pun intended) and decided to use E, but it's still confusing since E is energy. The European and international standard U is technically better, but in an industry dominated by the US, everyone just gets used to it soon or later.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 05:48:43 am by niconiconi »
 
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Offline niconiconi

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2022, 06:09:40 am »
One of the ones I noticed on LCSC was 'horn type' capacitors.  This was used for snap-in electrolytics, and while the leads do resemble an animal's horns, I've never heard this used in English.  That seems to have disappeared from LCSC now though, and they've just put all the snap-in capacitors with the radial leaded ones.

Unsurprisingly, people invent slang and nicknames, and different people have different ideas. Machine translation without the knowledge of slang differences is guaranteed to produce hilarious results or gibberish.

The through-hole ribbon cable socket with two locking grabs on each ends is also known as a "cow horn (牛角) connector". Following the same reasoning, its low-cost variant without locking grabs is a simplified (简易) cow horn (牛角) connector. Thus, it's abbreviated to "简牛", or literally, a "simple cow" connector.

Indeed, when I searched for "simple cow connectors" in quote marks, I got many results from Google.  :-DD :-DD :-DD
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 06:18:57 am by niconiconi »
 
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Offline janoc

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2022, 08:54:58 am »
They often refer to soldering as welding because that is han teh (weld iron) whereas soldering is han sik (weld tin, the element not the container).

Welding, soldering and blazing are not distinguished outside technical fields, all metal-joining techniques are known as "焊接" or "焊". Hence the mistranslation.

That's the same in French, for example.

To weld or to solder is both translated the same: "souder".

So if you hope to buy a soldering iron/station, don't ask for a "machine à souder" at your local hardware store or Conrad or you will be shown a welder  :-// (soldering iron is "fer à souder" - literally "iron for  welding/soldering").

 
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Offline HwAoRrDkTopic starter

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2022, 10:17:37 am »
The through-hole ribbon cable socket with two locking grabs on each ends is also known as a "cow horn (牛角) connector". Following the same reasoning, its low-cost variant without locking grabs is a simplified (简易) cow horn (牛角) connector. Thus, it's abbreviated to "简牛", or literally, a "simple cow" connector.

Ooh, yes, that's a good one I hadn't come across before. And checking at LCSC, of course they call them "horn buckle". ;D

And for some reason they also term the clamping clip that forms the top part of an IDC ribbon cable connector a "reflex cover". Not sure how "reflex" comes into it... :-//

Indeed, when I searched for "simple cow connectors" in quote marks, I got many results from Google.  :-DD :-DD :-DD

That's hilarious! :-DD
 


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