What happened to "OK, Apply, Cancel"

[fubar.gr]

Up to some time ago, all configuration windows had the options OK, Apply, Cancel at the bottom.

You could mess around with the settings and if things went wrong, you could simply hit Cancel and start over again.

But nowadays these buttons have disappeared from most programs. All you can do is to close the window, but doing that will automatically apply any changes. If you made some changes but want to revert them, sorry but you're screwed!

Does anyone else find this new style configuration window annoying?

[Brumby]

Which environment are you referring to?

[fubar.gr]

Windows

The first time I noticed this style of config window was in Google Chrome's settings. Soon after Firefox followed suit. Then Windows 8 and 10 got the same style menus too.

[MarkS]

Windows

The first time I noticed this style of config window was in Google Chrome's settings. Soon after Firefox followed suit. Then Windows 8 and 10 got the same style menus too.

This is bad interface design, although a major software manufacturer *cough*Microsoft*cough* decided to forget decades of past experience for some nut job's "study" saying his way is better, so bad interface design is slowly becoming mainstream.

[hendorog]

Apple started it, not Microsoft.

Not sure why I'm defending Microsoft, never thought that would happen...

[Halcyon]

One of the many, many reasons why Windows XP and Windows 7 are probably going to be the last versions of Windows I'll use on my primary home machines. I'll be switching to Linux within the next 5 years it seems.

[MarkS]

The GUI of Windows 8/10 is based off of a study done by *someone* that discounted decades of GUI research and experience, as though we've been gimping along all these many years. The result is an abomination.

Contrasting colors and patterns for interface elements? Multicolored icons? Standard buttons like "OK", "Cancel" and "Apply"? Pfft! Those are all so 1990's!

[Halcyon]

The GUI of Windows 8/10 is based off of a study done by *someone* that discounted decades of GUI research and experience, as though we've been gimping along all these many years. The result is an abomination.

Agreed. They are trying too hard to be like Android, an OS which runs, quite well might I add, on a wide variety of devices.

Microsoft have obviously realised "Oh shit, we need to turn our attention to phones, tablets, cars, everything else..." and have made this bastardised version of Windows which kinda-sorta works on "every" device.

The result is a disaster.

I mean, the fact you have several different places to adjust system settings is bad enough... you have some new "Settings" option which makes it difficult to find what you want, you still have the traditional Control Panel which has done the job just fine since the 1980's, then you have a dedicated "Printers and Devices" box... It's just horrid.

I've used Windows 10 now on a test machine for about 3-4 months and I've tried to like it, but I just can't. I find I have to hunt around for options and items which should be obvious (but aren't) and the fact they refer to everything as "Apps"... c'mon! It's akin to your uncool and daggy mother and father using "LOL" -- It's APPLICATIONS people (or Programs if you like). They may as well have dumbed the 'Start' button down to "Apps 'n' Shit".

[Groucho2005]

The GUI of Windows 8/10 is based off of a study done by *someone* that discounted decades of GUI research and experience, as though we've been gimping along all these many years. The result is an abomination.

Couldn't agree more.

Back to topic - The APIs for the good old "OK, Cancel, Retry, ..." message boxes are present in all modern Windows versions. It's up to the application developers to use them properly.
As for interface design, either devs roll their own shiny interface elements that look like hot wax accidents or they use the standard, incredibly bland Win8/10 elements, both of which largely neglect the above mentioned proved and tested GUI guidelines.

Every time Windows 8/10 starts up, somewhere a puppy, a kitten, a lamb, and a baby seal are killed.
Windows 8/10 is a conspiracy by the forces of Satan to drive us over the brink into madness.
The checksum for each file in the installation includes the numbers 666.

 


 

[Rerouter]

I agree strongly, some of the web interfaces i deal with i have been able to wear them down and get them to atleast break it down to "save" and "cancel", pretty much yes or no, and pressing "X" to close the program works the same as cancel. and doesnt change things. (uphill battle there aswell),

Funny thing about windows 8, after the company replacing my work computer with a windows 8 one while i was on a working trip (unnanounced), they noticed the amount of work i got done fell to about half, which i solely attribute to how much time i wasted by not being able to navigate by muscle memory. and no bloody start menu (was not allowed to install software), so within a week i had my old machine back. and i think for now they learnt there lesson to ask first.

[amyk]

Apple started it, not Microsoft.

Not sure why I'm defending Microsoft, never thought that would happen...

Yes they did.

I occasionally have to use a Mac and it is almost scary; example:



Touching any of those controls causes an instant change in display resolution, whether you actually wanted to or not. There is no undo. In theory, they make it "smart" enough to not let you change to a resolution outside of the monitor limits, but of course that doesn't always work  in reality.

[MarkS]

Yes they did.

I occasionally have to use a Mac and it is almost scary;

..snip..

Touching any of those controls causes an instant change in display resolution, whether you actually wanted to or not. There is no undo. In theory, they make it "smart" enough to not let you change to a resolution outside of the monitor limits, but of course that doesn't always work  in reality.

Pretty sad considering they practically wrote the book on window-based GUI design. I had the original "Inside Macintosh" books decades ago that Apple released for developers that detailed exactly how any program written for their OS should look and function. You would NEVER have a dialog without "OK" and "Cancel". There was an entire chapter devoted to proper dialog box layout! What you showed just wasn't done. Jump forwards 30 years though...

[madires]

"OK, Apply, Cancel" were changed into "Yes, I obey" 

[jonovid]

the menu was designed by a committee. 

[james_s]

I never liked Steve Jobs when he was alive, but after he died it really became apparent how much his obsessive attention to detail made Apple what it was. I never liked the extreme lack of flexibility and dumbing down of the interface, complete lack of a command line prior to OSX, etc but other than that they had UI design nailed. Polish, attention to detail, and most importantly, consistency. Menus and dialogs in one Mac program looked and worked just like menus and dialogs in another Mac program.

Today Windows is a complete mess, it has taken on the look and feel of the typical open source hodge podge of 10+ years ago. MacOS is still somewhat consistent but even it has thrown out the slick glossy clean look for the stark, flat, unfinished look that has become popular in recent years. I'm surprised housing trends haven't gone to unfinished drywall or bare studs, with light switches, sockets and plumbing fixtures of different styles installed in nonstandard spots in every room.

[rrinker]

 That horrible 'flat' look originated at Apple and was blindly copied by Microsoft for some godforsaken reason. Oh yeah, the previous style was considered "old fashioned" and the throw away consumer of today simply will NOT have something that looks 'old' even if it was better.
 At least they haven't reverted on the ability to type the app name and run it - most common apps I use in Windows I never click anything but the Start button, I just type in the program or applet name.
 Microsoft too has or at least had books on how to use the OS to generate consistent UIs. Problem is, even their own internal app teams don't follow the guidelines. Some third party stuff though - it's obvious the UI team was 5 different developers, none of whom actually talked to one other.

[RGB255_0_0]

It seems people need a safe space from instant changes.

[T3sl4co1l]

If the settings are updated in real time, the "OK" button is superfluous: the change is already made.  Likewise, you can see the results instantly, and there is no need for an "Apply" button to preview the change.

The "Apply" button is perhaps best seen as a performance compromise on early, underpowered machines: the update may take a while, so it's more efficient to group multiple changes together, and to leave that update (which will likely freeze the application for the duration of the update) at the will of the user, rather than doing it arbitrarily.

(Some applications take the best of both worlds: GIMP for example begins updating the image preview shortly after entering a change, but interrupts the update if another change is made, and so on.  This thrashes the CPU, but cores are plentiful these days, so it's no problem for responsiveness of the OS or the application.)

A "Cancel" button, to revert the settings back to the state when the dialog was first opened, would still be handy.  This is excusable on the basis that, if you're seeing your results in real time, you'll know precisely which change had which effect, and it's reasonable to expect the user to remember the previous value of one item at a time.

Tim

[rrinker]

 I've quickly adapted to each new version, no worries for me. I do see so many people who out of habit will make a change, click Apply, and then click OK, when OK does the apply AND closes the dialog for you. I still do my Visio diagrams with the older 3D models, the news ones included with 2013/2016, at least the server and data center stuff, look horrible to me.

[helius]

Touching any of those controls causes an instant change in display resolution, whether you actually wanted to or not. There is no undo. In theory, they make it "smart" enough to not let you change to a resolution outside of the monitor limits, but of course that doesn't always work  in reality.

Pretty sad considering they practically wrote the book on window-based GUI design. I had the original "Inside Macintosh" books decades ago that Apple released for developers that detailed exactly how any program written for their OS should look and function. You would NEVER have a dialog without "OK" and "Cancel". There was an entire chapter devoted to proper dialog box layout! What you showed just wasn't done. Jump forwards 30 years though...

Looking back 25 years:

There are no "OK" or "Cancel" buttons in the Mac System 7.0 Monitors control panel. It works exactly the same as the OSX 10.7 (at a guess) screenshot above. When the user selects a new resolution, the display instantly changes, with a modal dialog to Confirm or Revert. If neither choice is made within 5 seconds, it automatically reverts.
If the system can know the supported resolutions, it can skip the confirmation step, but this is tricky in the presence of hardware that converts display formats.

What I miss is that the choice of resolutions was taken away on later versions and replaced with "small, medium, and large" text sizes (since display scaling will result in larger text at lower resolutions). You have to use a hidden setting to access the resolutions now.

[timb]

If the settings are updated in real time, the "OK" button is superfluous: the change is already made.  Likewise, you can see the results instantly, and there is no need for an "Apply" button to preview the change.

The "Apply" button is perhaps best seen as a performance compromise on early, underpowered machines: the update may take a while, so it's more efficient to group multiple changes together, and to leave that update (which will likely freeze the application for the duration of the update) at the will of the user, rather than doing it arbitrarily.

(Some applications take the best of both worlds: GIMP for example begins updating the image preview shortly after entering a change, but interrupts the update if another change is made, and so on.  This thrashes the CPU, but cores are plentiful these days, so it's no problem for responsiveness of the OS or the application.)

A "Cancel" button, to revert the settings back to the state when the dialog was first opened, would still be handy.  This is excusable on the basis that, if you're seeing your results in real time, you'll know precisely which change had which effect, and it's reasonable to expect the user to remember the previous value of one item at a time.

Tim

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

For System Preferences settings I have never once missed having "OK, Apply, Cancel" options. Since changes take effect immediately, I can always easily revert the last change I made.

I don't see macOS as dumbed down, rather I see it as a powerful OS that stays out of my way and lets me get work done. It doesn't overwhelm me with a plethora of options that I rarely (if ever) need to change (but if I *do* need to change them I can do it from the terminal).

I felt like when I used Windows I spent more time keeping the OS clean and running than I did doing actual work. You know, sifting and applying updates, keeping cruft out of the registry, making sure anti-virus and anti-malware were up to date, fixing broken libraries and DLLs, doing backups and so on. It was *always* something and it was exhausting.

For me, macOS has always "just worked" and it never gets in my way. I get sooooo much more done on it compared to Windows. (Unfortunately I have to use a Windows VM for PCB design, but I keep all my EDA files and libraries on macOS and share them to Windows through the VM, which means I can use the snapshot feature to roll back the entire virtual Drive a day, a week or even to the initial snapshot I took after the clean install. I wish I could do that on a real PC!)

[james_s]

I don't think the flat look originated with Apple, I recall seeing it first in Android, then Apple went flat with IOS 7, then Microsoft pulled a "Hold my beer and watch this!" move and decided if Apple was going to go flat then Microsoft would show them how it's done and take flat to the extreme. Beats me why, Aero Glass was a popular feature in Win7 and during the Win10 development process it was the #1 feature request which of course Microsoft completely ignored.

I lived without glass and would continue to get by without it but Win8/10 went way beyond the removal of that. They removed *all* of the polish and refinement from the UI and left it with a stark, unfinished look that removes all visual cues in the name of extreme flatness. It's like they saw Android and iOS succeeding and decided to copy all the worst aspects of both and forgot about the reasons they actually are successful. I spend the majority of my waking hours staring at a computer screen and I want it to look nice. It's no different than wanting nice furniture, attractive carpet, some pictures on the walls and decorative trim in my house. To me Win10's "clean" look with so much bland white space feels like a big empty room with a white concrete floor, plain white walls and bright fluorescent lights.

[mtdoc]

For System Preferences settings I have never once missed having "OK, Apply, Cancel" options. Since changes take effect immediately, I can always easily revert the last change I made.

Yep. Been using both Macs and Windows machines regularly for 30 years. Apple gets this part right.  The fact that a Windows user finds this scary is a testament to how poor Windows deals with the user interfacing with changing system settings.  It is often scary on a Windows machine since you often aren't sure what change is being applied and when.  If I was a regular Windows user and wasn't familiar with a Mac and I was faced with having to change a setting on it without understanding that it immediately takes effect and I can therefore immediately revert to my prior setting if I don't like the change, then I can see how that would seem scary.  It's the Windows trauma conditioning coming through.

[james_s]

This may boil down to the fact that historically a Mac could always tell what monitor was plugged into it and knew exactly which modes that monitor could support and hid anything unsupported. Given that, it was quite difficult to get oneself into a state where the monitor couldn't display the signal and the user then would have a difficult time selecting something else.

These days PCs have mostly caught up, monitors identify themselves, though not always with perfect support in Windows. Most monitors support a wide range of resolutions so it's less likely to get stuck and need a way out. Some of the vestiges of the old ways still exist and remain because that's the way it's always worked.

[timb]

For System Preferences settings I have never once missed having "OK, Apply, Cancel" options. Since changes take effect immediately, I can always easily revert the last change I made.

Yep. Been using both Macs and Windows machines regularly for 30 years. Apple gets this part right.  The fact that a Windows user finds this scary is a testament to how poor Windows deals with the user interfacing with changing system settings.  It is often scary on a Windows machine since you often aren't sure what change is being applied and when.  If I was a regular Windows user and wasn't familiar with a Mac and I was faced with having to change a setting on it without understanding that it immediately takes effect and I can therefore immediately revert to my prior setting if I don't like the change, then I can see how that would seem scary.  It's the Windows trauma conditioning coming through.

Yeah, I spent the first 10 years of the my computing life on Windows (and another 5 as I slowly transitioned to Mac, starting in 2001)  and still, to do this day, I have this compulsive need to hunt down any and all files (preferences, plists, etc.) left behind by an application when I uninstall it, even though I know they're completely inert! The dreaded registry bloat of Windows has put this innate fear in me; if I don't get rid of *everything* it'll slow my computer to a crawl.

I know that doesn't happen with macOS, but I've just been conditioned to fear it from my time with Windows.

Speaking of which, that's another thing I love about macOS, no installers/uninstallers! For properly designed applications you just download, unzip (or mount the DMG), drag to /Applications and run. To uninstall, simply drag the .app to the trash. So simple!