What ever happened to MAPP gas?

[Ben321]

I know they don't sell it anymore, and instead sell something called Map Pro gas now instead. I also heard it burns much cooler now. Why the change? MAPP gas was supposed to be good for welding with a small rig, because it didn't need to be stored in large cylinders like acetylene, only small cylinders like propane. But for some reason MAPP gas is no longer made. Why? And unfortunately Map Pro gas doesn't actually burn hot enough to weld with (based on some temperature values I've been reading on the internet, it only burns a 100 or 200 degrees hotter than propane, whereas acetylene and MAPP gas burned a couple THOUSAND degrees hotter than propane). So now is there any good substitute for acetylene that, like MAPP gas, can actually be stored in small cylinders?

[langwadt]

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/why-was-mapp-gas-discontinued.419683/

[Ben321]

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/why-was-mapp-gas-discontinued.419683/

From my understanding, it was an issue (possibly a leak at the seal where the hose attaches) with some of the larger professional tanks used by major companies for welding operations (not small ones you find in a hardware store, for ordinary folks to do small welding projects in their garage). The small hardware-store-bought MAPP gas tanks were as safe as the small hardware-store-bought propane tanks, from my understanding.

For some reason, the factory stopped making the big leak-prone tanks, and then instead of just making more of the small safe tanks (like boosting production of the small tanks after discontinuing making the large tanks), they did something really stupid. They completely closed the factory. I don't know why. But I hope to find a reasonable alternative (and no, Map Pro is NOT a reasonable alternative). You can't weld with Map Pro gas, not even when using it in conjunction with an oxygen tank and an oxy+fuel rig. The flame still won't get quite hot enough to melt steel or even raw iron. It's enough to get the iron white hot (at which point it will be very soft, but not quite a liquid), so that means that even in in an oxy+fuel configuration, Map Pro gas can't weld iron. I don't even know why Map Pro gas exists. Propane is a cheaper alternative to Map Pro gas for standard torch uses that don't involve welding/melting iron or steel. So I don't know why Map Pro exists at all.

There may be some VERY RARE application, in which the small temperature difference between propane and Map Pro gas flames is important, but if there is, I don't know what it is.

[SilverSolder]

Sometimes you can be lucky and find real MAPP gas -  I found a welding store in NY years ago that had a stash.  Expensive, of course...

[Monkeh]

(based on some temperature values I've been reading on the internet, it only burns a 100 or 200 degrees hotter than propane, whereas acetylene and MAPP gas burned a couple THOUSAND degrees hotter than propane)

Rubbish. MAPP only burns that hot mixed with pure O2, just like acetylene - in open air it's only a little hotter - maybe 200C at best.

Other propylene mixes are perfectly good, if you need that much more heat you should just use acetylene.

[Ben321]

Anybody know if this Bluefire MAPP gas http://www.aerosolgas.com/p1_mapp.asp is as good as the original (now discontinued MAPP gas)? I'm surprised that they have the exact same name, because I thought MAPP gas was a trademark of the company that made the original MAPP gas. Are they chemically similar? How similar is the temperature of the flame when mixed with normal air? How about when mixed with pure oxygen from an oxygen tank in a welding rig?

[Ben321]

(based on some temperature values I've been reading on the internet, it only burns a 100 or 200 degrees hotter than propane, whereas acetylene and MAPP gas burned a couple THOUSAND degrees hotter than propane)

Rubbish. MAPP only burns that hot mixed with pure O2, just like acetylene - in open air it's only a little hotter - maybe 200C at best.

Other propylene mixes are perfectly good, if you need that much more heat you should just use acetylene.

Sorry. I thought air/oxygen burning temperatures (measured in degF) for different gasses were approximately the following:
Propane 2000/3000
Map Pro was 2200/3200
MAPP 3500/4500
Acetylene 4200/5200

[Monkeh]

How similar is the temperature of the flame when mixed with normal air? How about when mixed with pure oxygen from an oxygen tank in a welding rig?

There's a table right there on that page telling you that.

[Ben321]

How similar is the temperature of the flame when mixed with normal air? How about when mixed with pure oxygen from an oxygen tank in a welding rig?

There's a table right there on that page telling you that.

The table has:
Acetylene
Mapp
MAP/PRO
Propane
Butane
Methane

But tha ttable makes no comparison between the original MAPP gas and their substitute for MAPP gas. It does mention MAP/PRO gas, but that's different. That's the more commonly known substitute for MAPP gas that's made by Bernzomatic, but not the supposedly better substitute offered by Bluefire. There is literally ZERO comparison between the original MAPP gas, and the MAPP gas that Bluefire is offering. I'm just hoping someone here in this forum has had a chance to use BOTH of these (original MAPP, as well as Bluefire MAPP) and had the equipment needed to measure their flame temperature on the same torch for an accurate comparison.

[Ben321]

In fact I've sent them an email asking for this information. Here's the text of the email.

I saw a chart on your website of different gas burning temperatures, including Mapp gas. I'm not sure which Mapp gas that refers to though. Does it refer to your Mapp gas that's now being sold in the US, or the original Mapp gas that is no longer sold in the US? I heard that the company that made the original Mapp gas had to stop making it in the US, due to issues with their gas cylinders. But what I'm most curious about is the temperature. Does your Mapp gas burn at the same (or similar) temperature as the original Mapp gas? Could it serve as a drop-in replacement for the original, in Mapp gas welding rigs? That is, does your Mapp gas (when mixed with oxygen) burn hot enough to melt iron or steel? A temperature comparison on your website, including the flame temperatures of the original Mapp gas (with air and with pure oxygen), as well as your version of the gas (with air and with pure oxygen), could be useful in making a purchasing decision.

[Monkeh]

MAPP was never one mixture anyway. Their temperatures are within margin of error of other mixes.

If you need to weld, use acetylene. MAPP was never magic. Why people are so fixated on 'one' (many.) proprietary gas mixes I've no idea.

[ejeffrey]

I'm guessing what happened is that cheap arc welders and portable inverters/generators became a thing.  That can replace many but not all small volume users of MAPP.  High volume applications are going to use oxy-acetylene.  There are still some applications where arc welders are not suitable and acetylene is not practical but I'm not surprised that it isn't enough to justify production.

[Ben321]

MAPP was never one mixture anyway. Their temperatures are within margin of error of other mixes.

If you need to weld, use acetylene. MAPP was never magic. Why people are so fixated on 'one' (many.) proprietary gas mixes I've no idea.

There is one specific one that was supposedly really good MAPP gas, and that was the one made by Bernzomatic (same company that makes the small blue propane tank cylinders, but the MAPP gas ones were yellow instead of blue).

[SilverSolder]

[...]  air/oxygen burning temperatures (measured in degF) for different gasses were approximately the following:
Propane 2000/3000
Map Pro was 2200/3200
MAPP 3500/4500
Acetylene 4200/5200

Wikipedia states 2925 °C (5300 °F) in oxygen for the original MAPP,  vs. (3160 °C, 5720 °F) for Acetylene.   This puts the original MAPP temperature at around 92% of acetylene.  Your table puts the new MAPP at about 86% of acetylene temperature, so the new MAPP isn't as good, but obviously a lot better than propane...

[Ben321]

[...]  air/oxygen burning temperatures (measured in degF) for different gasses were approximately the following:
Propane 2000/3000
Map Pro was 2200/3200
MAPP 3500/4500
Acetylene 4200/5200

Wikipedia states 2925 °C (5300 °F) in oxygen for the original MAPP,  vs. (3160 °C, 5720 °F) for Acetylene.   This puts the original MAPP temperature at around 92% of acetylene.  Your table puts the new MAPP at about 86% of acetylene temperature, so the new MAPP isn't as good, but obviously a lot better than propane...

Do they also have an in-air burning comparison for original MAPP gas and acetalene?  I'm mostly interested in MAPP for what I remember (from reading years ago online) was its incredibly high in-air burn temperature. This was something like 3500 degF. And that is hotter than the melting point of iron, which has a melting point of about 3000 degF. And guess what, if it's hot enough to melt iron, it's hot enough to weld (which by definition means melting the edges of two pieces of iron together so that they form a single piece of iron after cooling). So if you want a good gas that has an in-air (no oxygen tank required) welding capability, then you want the original MAPP gas. Not Map Pro, and probably not the BlueFire replacement for MAPP (unless theirs actually does have an in-air flame temp of 3500 degF). MAPP also is nice in that it's safe compared to acetalene. Acetalene has two ways of responding to heat, the first is burning (reacting with oxygen), and the other is explosive decomposition. The second of these 2 reactions is where instead of combining with something, it breaks down into smaller molecules, and releasing a lot of heat in the process. It's this second reaction that's the very dangerous one, because the reaction travels at super sonic speeds through the gas (far faster than the speed of the flame front travels through the gas when just burning the gas), making it literally a DETONATION type reaction. Unlike the burning reaction, the explosive decomposition, due to it being a supersonic detonation, will generate a shockwave that will tear things apart, just like the explosion of a stick of dynamite.

Now MAPP gas did NOT have that danger. It didn't have explosive decomposition, as a possible reaction. MAPP gas, like propane, only BURNED, so no possible detonation. Yet unlike propane, MAPP gas burned hot enough to weld iron without an oxygen tank (using only the surrounding air as the source of oxygen). The only two known gasses in existence, which are capable of welding iron with only air for the oxygen source are acetalene, and the original MAPP gas (the one sold by Bernzomatic). An accedental leak of MAPP gas (like propane) will create a fire hazard, as once the cloud of leaked gas reaches an ignition source (someone turns on a light switch and the tiny spark in the switch ignites it) will create a flame that travels through the gas, but only at subsonic speeds, burning up your house. There's a chance to survive with severe burns. However, a similar leak and ignition of acetalene gas will trigger a detonation that will blow your house apart, and you too. You'll never be found in one piece again. That's why acetalene is SO DANGEROUS, and something that should be AVOIDED by amateur/hobby welders.

What about arc welding as a way to do small welding projects? That has the added requirement of buying a much more expensive welding goggles than are needed for gas welding (light is much brighter than with gas welding, and generates not only more intense visible light, but also large amounts UV light unlike with gas welding), and needs a power source other than a standard household outlet. Unless your house is fitted with a high current outlet (at least 20 amps) to power the arc welding machine, you will need a separate generator to provide the 20 amps to power your welding machine. That's a HUGE investment. Generators with this much output can easily cost over $1000. And then you need to find a way to safely store gasoline for your generator, and while it's in use you'll also need to provide adequate ventilation for all the CO gas that comes out of its exhaust (to avoid dying of CO poisoning). And that's the other thing, CO is produced at a much greater rate with a gasoline powered generator than the burning of small quantities of MAPP gas from a handheld MAPP gas torch. For small projects that don't involve using the torch for extended periods of time, a MAPP gas torch can be safely used in an INDOORS work area, without risk of dying from CO poisoning.

Really, there is no substitute for the ORIGINAL MAPP gas made by Bernzomatic. It had ALL the properties needed for small, safe, at home, welding projects. NONE of the other solutions have this unique set of features.

[soldar]

What about arc welding as a way to do small welding projects? That has the added requirement of buying a much more expensive welding goggles than are needed for gas welding (light is much brighter than with gas welding, and generates not only more intense visible light, but also large amounts UV light unlike with gas welding), and needs a power source other than a standard household outlet. Unless your house is fitted with a high current outlet (at least 20 amps) to power the arc welding machine, you will need a separate generator to provide the 20 amps to power your welding machine. That's a HUGE investment. Generators with this much output can easily cost over $1000. And then you need to find a way to safely store gasoline for your generator, and while it's in use you'll also need to provide adequate ventilation for all the CO gas that comes out of its exhaust (to avoid dying of CO poisoning). And that's the other thing, CO is produced at a much greater rate with a gasoline powered generator than the burning of small quantities of MAPP gas from a handheld MAPP gas torch. For small projects that don't involve using the torch for extended periods of time, a MAPP gas torch can be safely used in an INDOORS work area, without risk of dying from CO poisoning.

I disagree with this. I have a small arc welder machine and use it often. I have several masks of different types and they are ridiculously cheap to buy. 

I have never had any problem with the power requirements either. I suppose if you buy a big machine you can run into that issue but I have never tripped a circuit breaker with mine. At 230V, 15 A, you can be putting 3.5 KW into the arc, which is plenty.

Never a problem and I do plenty of home, small time welding.

At home I could connect it to a more powerful circuit like the kitchen stove and get maybe 6KW. that is without any change. I could probably get a 10 KW circuit to work.

If you are a shop and need something even bigger you also have a more powerful electric supply.

I find stick welding is the simplest, easiest and cheapest way to weld. 

[nctnico]

What about arc welding as a way to do small welding projects? That has the added requirement of buying a much more expensive welding goggles than are needed for gas welding (light is much brighter than with gas welding, and generates not only more intense visible light, but also large amounts UV light unlike with gas welding), and needs a power source other than a standard household outlet. Unless your house is fitted with a high current outlet (at least 20 amps) to power the arc welding machine, you will need a separate generator to provide the 20 amps to power your welding machine. That's a HUGE investment. Generators with this much output can easily cost over $1000. And then you need to find a way to safely store gasoline for your generator, and while it's in use you'll also need to provide adequate ventilation for all the CO gas that comes out of its exhaust (to avoid dying of CO poisoning). And that's the other thing, CO is produced at a much greater rate with a gasoline powered generator than the burning of small quantities of MAPP gas from a handheld MAPP gas torch. For small projects that don't involve using the torch for extended periods of time, a MAPP gas torch can be safely used in an INDOORS work area, without risk of dying from CO poisoning.

I disagree with this. I have a small arc welder machine and use it often. I have several masks of different types and they are ridiculously cheap to buy. 

I have never had any problem with the power requirements either. I suppose if you buy a big machine you can run into that issue but I have never tripped a circuit breaker with mine. At 230V, 15 A, you can be putting 3.5 KW into the arc, which is plenty.

I agree. Maybe Ben321 is in the US with 115VAC where you'd need more current compared to 230VAC. But how difficult is it to put an extra circuit + outlet near the distribution panel and run the inverter welder from that using an extension cord? Certainly doesn't cost $1000 in materials and work. In my previous home I had 3 phase outlet like that for the purpose of running heavy machinery every once in a while.

[soldar]

I agree. Maybe Ben321 is in the US with 115VAC where you'd need more current compared to 230VAC. But how difficult is it to put an extra circuit + outlet near the distribution panel and run the inverter welder from that using an extension cord? Certainly doesn't cost $1000 in materials and work. In my previous home I had 3 phase outlet like that for the purpose of running heavy machinery every once in a while.

In the USA you also have 240 V circuits for higher powered appliances.

I bought my little welder in China some years ago and the full kit with mask and everything cost me like 50 EUR. Yo can probably buy small electronic stick welders in Europe for under 100.

IMHO, for the home / hobby / nonprofessional welder this is the simplest and cheapest option.

[nctnico]

I know 240V exists in the US but I don't know if this exists everywhere.

BTW: I have been looking at getting a welder myself but have not gotten to buying one yet. Stick, MIG and TIG all look like really nice to have. However, I would buy the mask from a reputable vendor as I only have one set of eyes which are not easely replaced by something functionally equivalent 

[soldar]

I know 240V exists in the US but I don't know if this exists everywhere.

BTW: I have been looking at getting a welder myself but have not gotten to buying one yet. Stick, MIG and TIG all look like really nice to have. However, I would buy the mask from a reputable vendor as I only have one set of eyes which are not easely replaced by something functionally equivalent 

240 V exists pretty much everywhere in the USA because distribution is at 240 V with a center tap.

If you have never welded and just want to give it a try you can get a stick welder for very little and get started. I have never tried TIG or MIG and I just don't think the kinds of things I do would justify the expense. If you have money to burn I suppose you can go for the whole thing from the start but if money is an issue then I would just start with stick welding. I am pretty sure you could get started for under 100 and start practicing. And, believe me, you will need practice.

Regarding the mask, I have several masks and lenses of the conventional style and they are cheap. And I have an automatic darkening type and it cost me under 30 EUR. I do not see how any of this could damage your eyes. What has happened to me more than once is I start the arc before I have covered my eyes. Ouch! That IS dangerous! But I seem to not have lost my eyesight yet.

The main problem I seem to have is welding in bright light the light gets in from behind and does not let me see through the glass well. I keep thinking I need to put some cloth or hood around the back.

[jpanhalt]

BTW: I have been looking at getting a welder myself but have not gotten to buying one yet. Stick, MIG and TIG all look like really nice to have.

Some people are really good with stick.  I am not one of them.  I learned with oxy-acetylene.  Had a fair bit of experience glass blowing (oxy-natural gas or propane), then TIG and lastly MIG.  For control and small stuff, it's hard to beat TIG.  MIG for me is more for structural work, or where speed and/or small heat zone are important, e.g., larger panels of steel.  You'll also see a lot of MIG in industrial settings where speed is a priority and for aluminum vehicle bodies.

As for welding hood, those with fixed density glass are relatively inexpensive.  Those with auto-dimming are more expensive and some people prefer them.  I use both.  I find the view with a fixed density lens is a bit clearer, but positioning before striking the arc is a bit harder.

[soldar]

BTW: I have been looking at getting a welder myself but have not gotten to buying one yet. Stick, MIG and TIG all look like really nice to have.

Some people are really good with stick.  I am not one of them.  I learned with oxy-acetylene.  Had a fair bit of experience glass blowing (oxy-natural gas or propane), then TIG and lastly MIG.  For control and small stuff, it's hard to beat TIG.  MIG for me is more for structural work, or where speed and/or small heat zone are important, e.g., larger panels of steel.  You'll also see a lot of MIG in industrial settings where speed is a priority and for aluminum vehicle bodies.

As for welding hood, those with fixed density glass are relatively inexpensive.  Those with auto-dimming are more expensive and some people prefer them.  I use both.  I find the view with a fixed density lens is a bit clearer, but positioning before striking the arc is a bit harder.

Sometimes my auto-dimming one seems to go wonky. I do not know if it is when I have not used it for a long time.

The fixed density do not have that problem but, as you say, sometimes it gets difficult to strike exactly where you want. And there is a risk of touching and striking the ard inadvertently and damaging your eyes. It has happened to me. More than once. You need to be very careful.

The main problem I have stick welding is it takes me a moment after the arc strikes to get my bearings and see what I am doing and where. This is OK if welding something heavy but if it is something lighter quite often by the time I know where I am I have already blown a hole in the work. Stick welding, as you say, is not for very light work. TIG is better but has the disadvantage of needing gas, etc.

I am not especially at with stick welding but I manage to do what I need to do. A pro would do it twice better in half the time.

[coppercone2]

if your skilled go for the tig try to fix one if you feel confident it took me a long time but I don't miss any of the other equipment at all.

when you see how tame the arc is compared to all the splattery smoke crap you will NOT regret it. its beautiful. OA is good too but its totally exhausting and really hot... you feel like some 'deer hunter' shit is going on with that. Now i can reserve that for brazing and bending

[exmadscientist]

To actually answer the original question, years later... (that disjointed GJ thread notwithstanding),

What I was told when I asked someone who actually welded was that MAPP gas was produced as a byproduct or secondary product of another operation at certain refineries. This is pretty common: why make one product when you can make two? It can even be necessary for profitability, as sometimes neither Product #1 or Product #2 is profitable to produce on its own, but when you can make both for basically the same price, now you're cookin' with (MAPP) gas. (Sorry.) He said that this was the case with MAPP gas: once demand for the other product wound down, for whatever reason, it just wasn't economical to produce MAPP gas on its own, and so it went away.

Just a story? Maybe. Plausible? Oh yes, you see this all the time in that business.

[nctnico]

if your skilled go for the tig try to fix one if you feel confident it took me a long time but I don't miss any of the other equipment at all.

when you see how tame the arc is compared to all the splattery smoke crap you will NOT regret it. its beautiful. OA is good too but its totally exhausting and really hot... you feel like some 'deer hunter' shit is going on with that. Now i can reserve that for brazing and bending

After doing research and watching videos, TIG welding appeals to me. Especially since I use aluminium quite a lot and being able to weld thin aluminium would be a big plus. For steel, I can resort to stick welding just fine (done that once and I'm quite pleased with the result). Today I looked at MIG welding aluminium as jpanhalt brought it up ( thanks, learned something new today) but the disadvantage is that MIG welding aluminium seems to be the start of the weld gets ugly and when progressing, you need to go faster. The creator of the video said that MIG welding aluminium isn't easy and he'd use his TIG machine if he wasn't (t)asked to make a video to show MIG welding aluminium.