Youtube video : Turning The Titan Missile Key

[hamster_nz]

Apologies if this has been posted before...

[TomKatt]

Just visiting those places freaks me out.

I'd be the guy trying to call for confirmation in 'War Games'...  I don't think I could turn the key.

It's starting to feel like society has lost the fear of nuclear war...  If you ever want a wake up call, watch the 80's BBC movie 'Threads'.

[jonpaul]

Mr. President! A moment please....we can survive a nuclear attack if we go into a deep mineshaft...

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057012/

Dr Strangelove ( Peter Sellers) 1963, Stanley Kubrick film

Jon

[tggzzz]

Just visiting those places freaks me out.

I'd be the guy trying to call for confirmation in 'War Games'...  I don't think I could turn the key.

It's starting to feel like society has lost the fear of nuclear war...  If you ever want a wake up call, watch the 80's BBC movie 'Threads'.

And its US contemporary "The Day After".

One ended the next day, with a collective sigh along the lines of the cliche "I've talked to the hospital, and the [shot] patient is going to be OK".

The other ended 13 years later, with a scream.

[coppercone2]

what they need to show is the conscription of labor into industries for rebuilding the country set at 1880 labor rights level w/ radioactive food for pay (tested to be safe enough for the usable life of the labor force). Especially if there is still war and you end up having to work on a shell factory eating slightly radioactive corn. Better hope a local democrat leader survives, the other kind might just have his standard oil dreams come true. Civil achievement past 1850 = unaffordable luxury

and the exciting black market of medication and normal food

[TomKatt]

what they need to show is the conscription of labor into industries for rebuilding the country set at 1880 labor rights level w/ radioactive food for pay (tested to be safe enough for the usable life of the labor force). Especially if there is still war and you end up having to work on a shell factory eating slightly radioactive corn. Better hope a local democrat leader survives, the other kind might just have his standard oil dreams come true

To some extent, the 'Threads' movie does indeed tackle that - you needed to work if you wanted food and looters were shot on sight.

And I think we only achieve 'democratic' leaders after first going through Mad Max tyrants, especially after an Armageddon event.

[coppercone2]

yeah but they show that its peace and rebuilding, it might turn into basically world war 1 / napoleonic war with aspirations of future combat methods. New imperial goverments that want to claim places that are not irradiated. I.e. a real reason to actually invade south America or Africa. Might be 50 years of propaganda, new colonialism, etc

Like how many miserable people do you need before the country decides its a good idea to do something we cant imagine. Like 10 years later : we are seeing alot of birth defects and diseases we did not anticipate here, so its us or them. Then you start getting some 1200's greasy shit going on. Like its somewhat peaceful now (globally) because people generally can at least tolerate staying within 200 miles of where they are in most cases).

Looters will be shot on sight is kids stuff, how about 'we are preparing for an offensive from ____". Like if there was some kind of backbone left, it would be 1900's (big countries, maybe like a 'front' and 'objectives'). If there was too much chaos, it would turn into feudalism with lots of local wars, that would need very little justification, propaganda, etc.

For instance, it would be like everyone turned into germany after WW1 (but worse). So the government would probobly take the form of postimperial Germany (promise to rebuild might of previous government). How easy is it for those types of governments to get into wars with each other? Like you don't have to pay reparations or surrender army, more like pay to fix stuff and the military is all gone, but the result might be kind of the same. Granted they might be a little less jealous then Germany since everyone is gonna be destroyed, but its easy to spin some news paper to say that the other country did not suffer nearly as much and stuff like that..

[tggzzz]

what they need to show is the conscription of labor into industries for rebuilding the country set at 1880 labor rights level w/ radioactive food for pay (tested to be safe enough for the usable life of the labor force). Especially if there is still war and you end up having to work on a shell factory eating slightly radioactive corn. Better hope a local democrat leader survives, the other kind might just have his standard oil dreams come true. Civil achievement past 1850 = unaffordable luxury

and the exciting black market of medication and normal food

And the consequences of all those lead to the final scream in "Threads". Compare and contrast with "The Day After".

The only remotely similar programme was the 1966 "The War Game", which was deemed to be too horrific for broadcast for the next 20 years.

From https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20190925-was-threads-the-scariest-tv-show-ever-made

Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Desert Island Discs last year, Brooker cited the film as a formative moment of his early adolescence. “I remember watching Threads and not being able to process what it meant; not understanding how society kept going,” he said. “I assumed it [nuclear war] was going to happen.”

There are clear parallels between Threads and Brooker’s dystopian science fiction series Black Mirror. Both, in Brooker’s words, are “about the way we live now – and the way we might be living in 10 minutes' time if we're clumsy”. Mankind forever teeters on the brink – it’s only our perception of this that alters.

From wackypedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threads_(1984_film)

Hospitals are overrun by wounded survivors seeking treatment. Due to the vast amounts of atmospheric smoke caused by the worldwide detonations, the sun is blocked out causing a nuclear winter which sends temperatures plummeting, adding to the suffering. The cold and the lack of sunlight don’t allow crops and plants to grow causing massive starvation. The government takes over homes in rural areas to house survivors, often leading to violence. In the following year, sunlight returns but with a higher ultraviolet index due to damage to the ozone layer, which in turn increases the likelihood of cataracts and cancer. Crop cultivation after the nuclear winter is poor due to the lack of fertilizers and equipment. A food merchant is shown selling dead rats. Detention camps are improvised to house looters but they are ineffective and costly so capital punishment is authorized by the Government, whose attempts to maintain order are largely ignored. Since money serves no value, food takes place as the only form of currency, the government awards it for labour and withholds it as punishment. Several people, including Ruth, flee to the Buxton countryside, where she gives birth alone, chewing off the umbilical cord with her teeth.

Ten years later, what remains of Britain's surviving population has dropped to a medieval level of 4 to 11 million people. Survivors work in cultivating crops for survival, and the generation born after the nuclear explosions suffer from radiation-induced birth defects and poor education. The new generation speaks a broken form of English and all kind of government control has disappeared.

Ruth dies in bed, prematurely aged and blinded by cataracts; Jane, her now nine-year-old mentally impaired daughter, reacts unemotionally to her mother's death. Industry begins to return with limited electricity and steam-powered technology, but the population continues to live in barbaric squalor.

Three years after Ruth's death, Jane and two boys are caught stealing food. One of the boys is killed, and Jane and the other boy engage in a struggle for the food that degenerates into rape.[4] Months later, she gives birth in a makeshift hospital. The nurse puts the dead and deformed baby into Jane's arms. Jane looks at the stillborn and begins to scream, but the audience only hears the howling wind.

[coppercone2]

I guess they don't anticipate people trying to muster the remains to do their bidding, that plot reads like everyone gave up and the politicians all died. I think someone would try to basically band people together with the promise of rapid regrowth to the lives they knew (probobly through conquest). Like a government that is anti apathetic. They assume massive destruction followed by apathy and peace from other groups of man in threads. But I think you would get some clever politicians that would start more war quickly.

[TomKatt]

I guess they don't anticipate people trying to muster the remains to do their bidding, that plot reads like everyone gave up and the politicians all died. I think someone would try to basically band people together with the promise of rapid regrowth to the lives they knew (probobly through conquest).

When I look around today and see the vast population of supposedly "intelligent" people suckered into conspiracy theories and propaganda (despite having the 'information age' at their fingertips), I can only imagine how brutal any kind of society would be following something like nuclear war...

I think I'd take the race car solution from "On the Beach"...

[coppercone2]

Well you would probobly get news paper only, that is edited by the party in charge. No need for people to waste their time scrutinizing the news. Our job of directing regrowth is more important then the immediate truth.... leave it for the historians to judge us

Also its interesting with the C3I targeting procedures of these modern methods of fighting war, if both C3I bases get destroyed, meaning that the leader of the armed forces is going to be some lower echelon personnel with little... educational training and stuff. All the generals and admirals and people with political savey are super targeted, so no one like that will be left to smooth things over (military diplomacy), and it will be run by the last remaining boot, brutally I suspect... the last memory is going to be yelled at by the drill instructor, not the meeting with the chiefs of staff about how to handle multinational issues. "I don't know what the fuck is going on and I am very important now.....* "

*supposedly this happened in USSR after WW2, rapidly promoted soldiers because of horrific death rates got promoted to political positions right after the war. How did that turn out?

And after a nuclear attack you know that the general population wont even think to.. ignore someone with basic military training, especially if they picked up the ensignia off the general-roast on the way to the whats left of the town hall meeting. So you will have basically kids in charge.

[TomKatt]

The only remotely similar programme was the 1966 "The War Game", which was deemed to be too horrific for broadcast for the next 20 years.

You know it's going to be bad when even the most horrific predictions are deemed 'too horrific' and need to be tamed for public dissemination...

I think it was 'The War Game' that mentioned the fire storms that would create tornado force winds sucking people into the inferno for miles around...

Well you would probobly get news paper only, that is edited by the party in charge. No need for people to waste their time scrutinizing the news. Our job of directing regrowth is more important then the immediate truth.... leave it for the historians to judge us

Seems like we're nearly there now...

[tggzzz]

I guess they don't anticipate people trying to muster the remains to do their bidding, that plot reads like everyone gave up and the politicians all died. I think someone would try to basically band people together with the promise of rapid regrowth to the lives they knew (probobly through conquest). Like a government that is anti apathetic. They assume massive destruction followed by apathy and peace from other groups of man in threads. But I think you would get some clever politicians that would start more war quickly.

It is fiction, not a documentary, so it is unarguable

The main point of interest to me is the comparison with the USA movie, where nuclear war is implied to be survivable because "here come's the cavalry".

One consequence was that Threads caused many people to ponder why the USA was plonking intermediate range nuclear missiles in the UK. People came to realise that the USA was defending us so the war would be faught here rather than in the US.

Much like Ukraine today, as Boris Johnson (who he?) pointed out "We’re paying higher bills – Ukraine is paying in blood"

[tggzzz]

The only remotely similar programme was the 1966 "The War Game", which was deemed to be too horrific for broadcast for the next 20 years.

You know it's going to be bad when even the most horrific predictions are deemed 'too horrific' and need to be tamed for public dissemination...

I think it was 'The War Game' that mentioned the fire storms that would create tornado force winds sucking people into the inferno for miles around...

IIRC the real sticking point was the depiction of a neighbourhood beat policeman summarily executing someone. Context: the UK police didn't (and mostly don't) carry guns.

[TomKatt]

One consequence was that Threads caused many people to ponder why the USA was plonking intermediate range nuclear missiles in the UK. People came to realise that the USA was defending us so the war would be faught here rather than in the US.

Much like Ukraine today, as Boris Johnson (who he?) pointed out "We’re paying higher bills – Ukraine is paying in blood"

While that is certainly true, it seems like the UK (and every other modern nation) wanted their own nukes as well, so in some sense they'd probably be there no matter who installed them.  At the same time, the US didn't want to share the atomic secrets, forcing the UK to do their own work and the mess that comes with it (Windscale?).

I don't know what the answer is to anything, but I've never seen atomic energy in any form to solve more problems than it creates.

Given the naivete of the times it was developed, it's amazing we haven't blown ourselves up so far.

[tggzzz]

One consequence was that Threads caused many people to ponder why the USA was plonking intermediate range nuclear missiles in the UK. People came to realise that the USA was defending us so the war would be faught here rather than in the US.

Much like Ukraine today, as Boris Johnson (who he?) pointed out "We’re paying higher bills – Ukraine is paying in blood"

While that is certainly true, it seems like the UK (and every other modern nation) wanted their own nukes as well, so in some sense they'd probably be there no matter who installed them.  At the same time, the US didn't want to share the atomic secrets, forcing the UK to do their own work and the mess that comes with it (Windscale?).

I don't know what the answer is to anything, but I've never seen atomic energy in any form to solve more problems than it creates.

Given the naivete of the times it was developed, it's amazing we haven't blown ourselves up so far.

There has always been "I've got a big stick/sword/gun/etc therefore I'm important" attitude.

Back then everybody knew nuclear stuff was dangerous if not controlled - so clever and reliable people were well funded to do a decent job. Nowadays that has been forgotten and/or merged into the "it exists deal with it" unfashionable background, with concomitant defunding, older infrastructure, and less dedicated personnel. Arguably it is more dangerous now.

[Sal Ammoniac]

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.

[TomKatt]

Back then everybody knew nuclear stuff was dangerous if not controlled - so clever and reliable people were well funded to do a decent job. Nowadays that has been forgotten and/or merged into the "it exists deal with it" unfashionable background, with concomitant defunding, older infrastructure, and less dedicated personnel. Arguably it is more dangerous now.

I think it's more dangerous now because it's no longer on the forefront of discussion.

I'm not sure I agree they did a 'decent job' in the early days...  It seems to me that safety corners were cut at virtually every opportunity in the name of 'strategic or wartime urgency'.  Little thought was given to waste handling or even worker protection in many cases.  Many horrific accidents were buried due to secrecy.  The majority of the most toxic locations on our planet are directly related to the early work done with nuclear materials.  Even now, nuclear plants are built near fault lines or other geographically dubious areas (ie Fukushima).  And that's when people aren't lobbing bombs over the plant (Ukraine).

[tggzzz]

Back then everybody knew nuclear stuff was dangerous if not controlled - so clever and reliable people were well funded to do a decent job. Nowadays that has been forgotten and/or merged into the "it exists deal with it" unfashionable background, with concomitant defunding, older infrastructure, and less dedicated personnel. Arguably it is more dangerous now.

I think it's more dangerous now because it's no longer on the forefront of discussion.

I'm not sure I agree they did a 'decent job' in the early days...  It seems to me that safety corners were cut at virtually every opportunity in the name of 'strategic or wartime urgency'.  Little thought was given to waste handling or even worker protection in many cases.  Many horrific accidents were buried due to secrecy.  The majority of the most toxic locations on our planet are directly related to the early work done with nuclear materials.  Even now, nuclear plants are built near fault lines or other geographically dubious areas (ie Fukushima).  And that's when people aren't lobbing bombs over the plant (Ukraine).

Those points can be made, but most have counter-arguments.

But building on/near fault lines does appear to have no justification.