weird situation, no partial refund? learn from my mistake

[DiTBho]

Imagine you have four friends and want to share a project with them. You have only one board, so you publish a post in the bazaar area of the web looking for other four unique piece of hardware and someone replies and proposes a private deal which consists of a super discount for the hardware in return of your support for Linux and u-boot.

It sounds exciting, and tasty, ain't it?

So the deal is
- you pay the shipping cost
- you pay 10 euro for each board
- you agree you will send source of the Linux and u-boot as soon as it's stable enough
- you get four boards

You agree with this, the seller agrees with this, and some weeks later you receive the package.

Yet at first impression it seems that something is wrong, like if, before delivery, the package was stuck in some creepy warehouse.

What's wrong, what's wrong? Weird feelings, perhaps I am just the kind who tends to see everything black on the mirror, but then you unbox and what you see clearly shows the packaging with soft card-boards is so brittle that most of new boards really arrived shattered like an egg.

2 boards are seriously damaged, and you see broken DIMM connectors with several pins bent, the plastic is crushed, there are several scratches on the PCB, and even the RJ45 looks no good.

One board looks OK, the other has a crushed  RJ45 connector, but it somehow boots and the led blinks, so there is hope.



But, what now? You call the seller, you tell more than 50% of the items arrived damaged, you paid 30 euro for the packaging, you point out you need the hardware, so your proposal is a partial refund or something like paying the postage for a couple of boards as replacement for the damaged ones.

But the seller replies that he is willing to refund the entire amount, but not a partial refund.

You explain again that you desperately need that hardware, so one card arrived in working condition, the other looks repairable, two cards are dead, but - two somehow working cards - are better than nothing, so a partial refund sounds like the perfect solution.


And at this point, the seller replies that it's not his fault if items were damaged during shipping, and he made a big favor about the discount.

So, you point out that you paid 30 euro for the shipping, and soft-card-board cost only 8 euro, not 30, so the seller has some responsibility for the items arrived damaged. And regarding the "big favor", yes, the discount facilitates development, but the deal was about releasing the software support for free and this facilitates the seller to better sell his boards that otherwise fewer person are willing to buy because unsupported by modern u-boot and Linux versions.

And to these point, the seller replies "I don't like your tone", and with no more replies, he simply hangs up, and the discussion is really over. He must feel offended, or something.

How to counter "I don't like your tone" in a conversation? And what would you do now? Filling a Paypal claim won't help because for Paypal you have to return all the items in order to have a refund.

Weird feelings and disappoint, I think I will give up 

[PlainName]

The simple solution would be to return the lot for a full refund. The chap may not want to do a partial refund because he may think you're trying it on to get half the stuff for free (which wouldn't be the case here, but perhaps he just has a lot of Ebay experience).

The problem, as I think you are putting it, is that your need for the hardware overrides pretty much everything. So that boils down to whether one of the is sufficient for you, of if you need them all. If the latter then you're clearly not going to achieve that and you might as well send the lot back.

Perhaps you could do whatever you want to do and then ship him the uboot stuff as source with a couple of files corrupted. Oops. Must've got damaged in the shipping, but it's not your problem that you sent it sans error correction over a V.23 modem.

[Bassman59]

Did you pay with a credit card?

If so, start a chargeback.

[station240]

My only though is the seller doesn't want to deal with the situation where the one undamaged board has a hairline crack and fails later on.

Some sellers take advice on how to improve their packaging when it fails, others go out of business eventually 

[DiTBho]

Did you pay with a credit card?

I paid with Paypal, but physically Paypal requested a SEPA Direct Debit to my bank.

[DiTBho]

My only though is the seller doesn't want to deal with the situation where the one undamaged board has a hairline crack and fails later on.

LOL, Well, that's something to really worry about

2 boards don't even power on, and look not repairable because they are six layers PCB and you have to desolder large Through-Hole connectors and replace them, which is the one of the worst issue.

1 board does power on, but immediately manifests a weird behavior with the Ethernet link which too often fails its 100Mbps auto negotiation and appears very very noisy with a lot of data package lost. I have already replaced the RJ45 connector with a new one, the issue hasn't flushed away so probably the PHY chip needs to be also replaced, or something. Thanks god the PHY is a SMD chip.

1 board looks almost ok, it's not perfect but it seems working ok even if it has not yet completed a 48h burn-in.

Fingers crossed: there is hope, 1 of 4 may have survived the worst packaging ever 

Some sellers take advice on how to improve their packaging when it fails, others go out of business eventually 

I hope so for his future customers 

[DiTBho]

The simple solution would be to return the lot for a full refund. The chap may not want to do a partial refund because he may think you're trying it on to get half the stuff for free

It makes sense, but couldn't I have returned only the two dead boards? For a replacement of them?

Frankly, I don't think I will ever be able to repair them. I have already phoned to a laboratory, sent them pics and they confirmed it's rather risky job, the probability of success is very low, and they do not guarantee anything.

I would have preferred returning the two dead boards, pay for a new shipping, and even something for two replacement cards.

The purpose here is: having one card for each member of the team, so we can run our projects.

I have tried to explain these points to the seller, but he doesn't want to listen. So ... no way. I give up.

The problem, as I think you are putting it, is that your need for the hardware overrides pretty much everything. So that boils down to whether one of the is sufficient for you, of if you need them all. If the latter then you're clearly not going to achieve that and you might as well send the lot back.

It's an old SBC that I reverse engineered back in 2007. I have spent years on it, and there are a couple of new projects I'd like to share with my friends. These projects are based on this specific board, for which we have been looking for two years. We cannot simply move things to a say "RPI" and there are no more similar boards around.

It's a critical situation, hence I think I will give up every full return.

Perhaps you could do whatever you want to do and then ship him the uboot stuff as source with a couple of files corrupted. Oops. Must've got damaged in the shipping, but it's not your problem that you sent it sans error correction over a V.23 modem.

LOL, thanks for the humor, it makes me feel better 

[Fraser]

OK, I have been in the situation of needing a specific SBC for a specialist DOLCH portable PC. I eventually found a ‘new old stock’ SBC and paid £80 for it. All is well and I am happy with the deal. The seller sold an obsolete part with a limited market and I got what I needed at a fair price as other similar SBC’s were three or four times the cost. A mutually good result. Now to your situation....

You bought four SBC’s circa 2007 for 10 Euro’s each and paid 30 Euro’s postage. I do not know which SBC you are using but 10 Euro’s for an otherwise unobtainable SBC is bargain basement stuff, especially if the seller knows of the rarity and your desire to purchase them. He did you a great deal and 30 Euro’s is not an outrageous postage fee even if it was not great packaging. As someone who needs the SBC and knows the seller is the only source, you needed to tread carefully and negotiate with the seller in a way that did not upset them. Some sellers are sensitive to any form of criticism..... remember, you need their help more than they need your relatively small sum of money. In your situation I would have contacted the seller and advised them that sadly the boards were damaged in transit. Go for the sympathy vote here ! I would include detailed pictures and ask the seller if they could please help me resolve the situation to our mutual satisfaction. I would ask to purchase additional SBC boards but could I have a reduced cost in light of the loss I have suffered. The seller will usually take this as an opportunity to sell more Product but at a lower profit to keep a customer happy. In your case a 10 Euro SBC is already a bargain so you really only have the postage cost to discuss in a careful manner and hope to reduce it. At the end of the day, you need those SBC boards, he has them, you are already getting a great deal, so swallow your pride or desire for ‘justice’ and sweet talk the seller ! It may already be too late however ! You could try an apology and request to purchase additional SBC’s with no mention of refunds poor packaging or postal costs but a request that maybe a small discount could be CONSIDERED. Demand nothing ! It is all about Diplomacy. He has something you want and cannot obtain elsewhere. You could ask that some padding is placed around the boards as they have very fragile parts on them.

Good luck and remember what an excellent price those original SBC’s were so would it really kill you if you effectively end up paying somewhat more for these rare obsolete items ? If they are not worth the additional cost to you.... send them back, obtain the refund and say goodbye to the seller as he will be unlikely to sell to you again in the future.

If you are fortunate, the seller will still deal with you in order to obtain the new software, but remember he has no guarantee that you will ever provide him with such so it is not a great bargaining chip if there is no trust between you. As for sending him corrupted files....... Hmmm, I think that was a joke but anyone thinking it a good idea... it is not. We are adults not spiteful children !

Sorry if this post seams harsh and mean, but sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and give people a reality check 

[PlainName]

Hmmm, I think that was a joke

Since it appears to need clarification, yes, it was a bit o humour

[Bassman59]

Did you pay with a credit card?

I paid with Paypal, but physically Paypal requested a SEPA Direct Debit to my bank.

I don't know how it all works in the UK, but here in the colonies credit cards offer excellent consumer protection against all sorts of seller issues. if the seller misrepresents what was offered, you can institute a chargeback. The bank will usually immediately credit your account the value of transaction and then work on resolving the issue with the seller. Generally what happens is that you don't have to pay for the misrepresented product.

This is all kinds of good, because you're not out the cash that was pulled from your bank account. You don't have to chase a bad vendor for refunds. And, if the vendor gets enough chargeback dings, the banks will no longer allow them to accept credit cards.

[DiTBho]

We are adults not spiteful children !

Precisely. My proposals to solve the problem:
- I shall send you back the two damaged cards so you can check yourself
- You shall send two replacement cards
- I shall pay UPS to collect the parcel ad your address
- I shall honor my part of agreement, no problem for what happened

His answer to these proposals? "I don't like your tone"

[DiTBho]

Moral of the story, I give up with that guy. I am going to use the working board and the repaired one, while the other two damaged boards will be recycled.

* * * * but good news * * * *

Yesterday a friend of mine reached me on Skype and told me

It's hard to win an argument with a smart person,
but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person.
Forget that dude! Today I found some D-boards abandoned!
I have a plan to smuggle a couple of them inside a bag

He was able to find a box of these boards practically lying abandoned in a warehouse in Estonia where he works. When he says "I have a plan to smuggle a couple of them inside a bag" he is clearly kidding. We have already contacted the owner and asked him if he is willing to sell. He replied has no idea about the working condition of the boards, but he is happy to send the whole box for just the postage cost.

I am going to offer him a couple of good Soviet drinks in return of his kindness! There are also something like 9 cards inside. Some don't look good, but some look in pristine condition. We will see.

I have already booked the ticket for the remote pickup. A dude with the UPS hat will collect the parcel there and bring it here, a whole box, more than 10Kg, shipped on a van, for only 18 euro.

Shipping from Estonia is usually very expensive, nevertheless I can have a discount for a "last minute ticket" if I am willing to wait until the end of the week for the pickup, and sure, no problem with that. I am not in rush 

[PlainName]

That's a stroke of luck. Of course, deals like this only occur once you've bought the bad ones first.

[Cerebus]

Sorry if this post seams harsh and mean, but sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and give people a reality check 

You're completely missing out the value of the quid-pro-quo of developing software and handing over the source. I think in regards to that you need a reality check. Typical rate for a software contractor at the moment, over £500 a day. Amount of code produced in a day, not very much (typical figure taken over a whole project works out at 10 lines of code per day [Fred Brooks, The Mythical Man Month]). We have no idea of the full market price sans discount of the boards, but given the figures we're talking about likely no more than 50-250 euros total. Now who is getting the better part of this deal, someone who discounts their boards and get what's probably several days, perhaps weeks, of developer time, or someone who gets a few boards at a discount?

[Fraser]

Actually I know exactly how much a coder or specialist consultant can charge. A hobbyist working on some circa 2007 SBC's does not normally qualify for such fees though.

The point I made was that just because someone says they will provide new code in the future, that does not mean that such will ever be developed or delivered. If you already had the code and offered that as part of a deal.... that has real value. I have made jsut such deals modifying equipment firmware. Vapourware has absolutely no value until it becomes a reality.... if ever  In this case the seller saw an opportunity and the buyer got the PCB's at virtually scrap prices.

The "Reality check" related to the fact that the OP had a need for some long obsolete SBC's and the seller had stock. In order to obtain what the OP wanted, some Diplomacy was needed and I suggested that taking a hit on the original orders damaged PCB's may be a price worth paying to get the required rare SBC's by ordering some more at the knock down 10 Euro price. That may not seem 'fair' but sometimes you have to live with a situation if it achieves the desired result. The other option was to fail in discussions with the seller and end up with a refund but no SBC's.

Anyway, all is good now as the OP has sourced a load of boards so the faulty ones can be returned, a refund issued and life moves on. Never waste your precious life on insignificant matters 

[DiTBho]

You're completely missing out the value of the quid-pro-quo of developing software and handing over the source.

Yup. Precisely my point. I mean, what I really didn't like about the seller. He promised a a parcel delivered by a courier, I got a soft-envelop delivered by a postman. He tried to save on shipping, and to gain over my work, the same kind of people who think that "open source" means you can give away some rusty hardware to some students or enthusiasts and exploit their passion to obtain software for free.

Shame for him. Now he won't get a line of code from me since he hasn't respected his side of agreement and he will have to hire some pro, and pay him/her 50 euro/hour to have a working demo. Otherwise nobody will buy his boards.

Shame for him, but frankly I don't care.

[DiTBho]

Never waste your precious life on insignificant matters 

Yup! Well written! Thanks, mate