Video game "loot boxes" may become federally illegal??......

[Smokey]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/05/08/video-game-loot-boxes-would-be-outlawed-many-games-under-forthcoming-federal-bill/?utm_term=.0567cb655eb8

Loot Boxes have "...what psychologists call “variable rewards,” meaning outcomes that are better or worse depending on seemingly random factors."

"Democratic Sen. Maggie Hassan (N.H.), who said the practice of paying for random loot had a “close link to gambling.”"

How about a thought experiment...
Lets substitute "loot boxes" for "packs of baseball cards" (or "magic the gathering packs" or "Pokemon card packs" or whatever card game packs) and see how fast law makers get laughed out of the jobs for suggesting making baseball cards federally illegal "because of the children!".

Problem solution #1: Stop being negligent parents and being unaware of what your kids are doing with the devices that you gave them to play with!  If your kids screw up, take responsibility for not doing a good job of supervising and teach your kids a life lesson.  That's your job.
Problem solution #2: Use the tools the tech companies already give you to address this exact problem:

“We look forward to sharing with the senator the tools and information the industry already provides that keeps the control of in-game spending in parents’ hands,” Stanley Pierre-Louis, the group’s acting president, said in a statement."

Problem solution #3: MORE LAWS!  Tech is scary!

Note:
This is actually relevant here because we all have an interest in the tech world and this is an example of a stupid legislative reaction to a problem of scary new technology that's really a result of bad parenting, which is not going away any time soon and a slippery slope further down the road to anything "new" "digital" and "technology" being considered "bad for the children". 
For example, how about making all Youtube videos illegal since you don't know what ads you are going to see and kids might click them and buy something? 

[madires]

https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/06/20/the-netherlands-starts-enforcing-its-loot-box-ban

[Brumby]

I'm not that against the idea.

These games become immersive and you could claim they are addictive.  By offering purchase of stuff - using real money - useful in a players progress through the game, you are using their addiction to extract money.  With this becoming a part of the game play, players will head down the path of financial peril.  This is taking the "game junkie" and turning them into a true junkie, complete with monetary malice.

I find that morally reprehensible and I think legislation to make such entrapment illegal is not inappropriate.

[T3sl4co1l]

Problem solution #1: Stop being negligent parents

I find it peculiar how common this statement is.  As if simply repeating it were to have any effect?  It's like a prayer: it's never heard by those it's directed at, nor is it ever heeded by them any more than chance.

Devil's advocate: if the parents don't want to teach their kids, the state SHOULD step up and teach them!

Ah, but the counter-argument to that (if you can call it that) is that the state shouldn't dictate what children think.  Which, for all the things states get up to, is a very good precaution.

But it's also an implicit excuse to do nothing.  If we aren't keeping the state accountable, and, we aren't keeping parents accountable, well, then what, we're just a bunch of shitty people, aren't we?

That's really what it seems to come down to, making excuses to not be involved in the system, in any way.  It's a prayer for apathy.

It doesn't matter if you're going to take negligent parents to task directly, or have the state take charge.  The effect is equivalent.  And the means are equivalent.  Getting involved and holding authority accountable.

Tim

[Bud]

What is loot boxes?

[wraper]

What is loot boxes?

Basically sort of gambling within video games. In game purchase when instead of buying certain a item, you buy a cat in the sack hoping there is something good in it. Sometimes people spend thousands of dollars until get virtual item they want. IMHO in game purchases should be banned altogether because they negatively affect quality of games. Developers tend to intentionally make games worse, so it can be fixed with in game purchases. Lootboxes being the worst among all kinds of that.

[Psi]

What is loot boxes?

The more you play a game, or do in game tasks, the more boxes of 'game' loot you get given. (random weapons, hats, etc. You don't know until opening the box).

Usually you can buy game items with real money or get them free in loot boxes if you play enough.

It's an incentive to play more and bring more people to a game. Who then may actually buy items with real money to save time.

You can also purchase the loot boxes.

The company makes money by having a small number of loot boxes contain very desirable objects.
While most boxes contain normal items of little in-game value.

[wraper]

Problem solution #1: Stop being negligent parents and being unaware of what your kids are doing with the devices that you gave them to play with!  If your kids screw up, take responsibility for not doing a good job of supervising and teach your kids a life lesson.  That's your job.
Problem solution #2: Use the tools the tech companies already give you to address this exact problem:

“We look forward to sharing with the senator the tools and information the industry already provides that keeps the control of in-game spending in parents’ hands,” Stanley Pierre-Louis, the group’s acting president, said in a statement."

Problem solution #3: MORE LAWS!  Tech is scary!

Real problem solution: Kick those companies in the butt. That crap appeared only recently and is only getting worse and worse. As people eat that shit game developers shovel to them, legislation is the only real solution.

Problem solution #1: Stop being negligent parents and being unaware of what your kids are doing with the devices that you gave them to play with!  If your kids screw up, take responsibility for not doing a good job of supervising and teach your kids a life lesson.  That's your job.

One of the most irresponsible and stupid things I've read.

[Smokey]

I'm not that against the idea.

These games become immersive and you could claim they are addictive.  By offering purchase of stuff - using real money - useful in a players progress through the game, you are using their addiction to extract money.  With this becoming a part of the game play, players will head down the path of financial peril.  This is taking the "game junkie" and turning them into a true junkie, complete with monetary malice.

I find that morally reprehensible and I think legislation to make such entrapment illegal is not inappropriate.

Speaking about adults here, where does that thinking end?
You can try to make the case that all alcohol should be illegal for everyone because some people are addicted to it.  I don't think that's a good idea, but it's probably the least controversial example. 

Fine.  How about another extreme?

What about donuts, or sugary drinks, or just food in general?  Do we ban food that our bodies tell us tastes REALLY good but isn't the most healty?  Give people a government approved daily food allowance?  A significant number of people are legitimately addicted to food.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_addiction

It's impossible to rid the world of all things that some people will feel compelled to do.  Trying that only punishes the majority of people with a normal level of self restraint.
And I actually agree that loot boxes generally don't make games better.  But everything I don't agree with shoudln't be made federally illegal.

As for kids:
I'm not sure why saying parents are negligent if they don't take any responsibility for what their kids are doing is controversial.  People make the decision to have kids WAY to casually.  If you aren't willing to put in the work to take care of your kids, then don't have kids.  You can't just push that responsibility off to "the system". 
If you give your kids a credit card or a phone with the credit card number stored in it (which is what we are talking about here), and the kids buy $10,000 worth of legos off Amazon, that's not Amazon's fault.  That's your fault as a parent who gave them access to the credit card.  The solution for the parent there is either to: 1) don't give your kids a credit card! 2) Teach them responsibility. 3) Suffer the consequences (then hopefully use that to teach some responsibility).

[Brumby]

So - we should back off from drug addicts and drug dealers, then?



This sort of argument is never going to have consensus, because a line has to be drawn somewhere - and there will always be one problem ... getting everyone to agree where that line gets drawn.

[Smokey]

So - we should back off from drug addicts and drug dealers, then?
This sort of argument is never going to have consensus, because a line has to be drawn somewhere - and there will always be one problem ... getting everyone to agree where that line gets drawn.

I didn't say everything should be legal.  But I did say that everything shoulnd't be illegal.

[wraper]

Note:
This is actually relevant here because we all have an interest in the tech world and this is an example of a stupid legislative reaction to a problem of scary new technology that's really a result of bad parenting, which is not going away any time soon and a slippery slope further down the road to anything "new" "digital" and "technology" being considered "bad for the children". 
For example, how about making all Youtube videos illegal since you don't know what ads you are going to see and kids might click them and buy something?

As this is electronics forum, imagine this. You purchase an oscilloscope. Start measuring signals, then it shows you a message: either you run 1000 loops around me before I do particular job properly, or pay 5 bucks and it might fix the problem. In small letters: there is 1 in 500 chance that you will win necessary option to do the job properly. Otherwise you get something useless. As in beginning it does not pop up that often, people just deal with it. Other oscilloscope manufacturers see it actually works and is an easiest way how to extort money out of customers, and all start doing same shit. As time goes by and people get used to it, it becomes worse and worse. So new oscilloscopes are pain to use without in oscilloscope gambling. In the end you cannot buy an oscilloscope which is comfortable to use out of the box.

[wraper]

I'm not sure why saying parents are negligent if they don't take any responsibility for what their kids are doing is controversial.  People make the decision to have kids WAY to casually.  If you aren't willing to put in the work to take care of your kids, then don't have kids.  You can't just push that responsibility off to "the system".

You can say it the other way around just as well. You can't just push that responsibility off to the parents.
Say it becomes that buying meth is as easy as purchasing cola (as it is with loot boxes). Good luck parents individually educating their kids. Not to say most parents don't even know about their existence to begin with.

[Smokey]

Note:
This is actually relevant here because we all have an interest in the tech world and this is an example of a stupid legislative reaction to a problem of scary new technology that's really a result of bad parenting, which is not going away any time soon and a slippery slope further down the road to anything "new" "digital" and "technology" being considered "bad for the children". 
For example, how about making all Youtube videos illegal since you don't know what ads you are going to see and kids might click them and buy something?

As this is electronics forum, imagine this. You purchase an oscilloscope. Start measuring signals, then it shows you a message: either you run 1000 loops around me before I do particular job properly, or pay 5 bucks and it might fix the problem. In small letters: there is 1 in 500 chance that you will win necessary option to do the job properly. Otherwise you get something useless Other oscilloscope manufacturers see it actually works and good way how to extort money out of customers, and all start doing same shit. In the end you cannot buy oscilloscope which is comfortable to use out of the box.

Good example.  Here is my answer:
If that requirement was in the spec for the scope before I bought it, then it's my fault for still buying that scope.  Again, personal responsibility. I can then chose to pay the $5, or not use the scope any more.  Now, if they do a firmware update which, after the sale, instates such silliness then that's a legal violation and completely different issue.
If other scope manufactures all start doing that sillyness and building scopes with such as noted in the spec at time of purchase, then that opens the market to another company that isn't being stupid.  No one forces you to buy that OWon scope.

If I have a requirement to measure pico-second jitter on some signal, and I still buy a cheap OWon scope now, it won't work and that's my fault.  I can't then try to get OWon scopes made illegal because I didn't read the spec or understand it or don't agree with it.

[Smokey]

I'm not sure why saying parents are negligent if they don't take any responsibility for what their kids are doing is controversial.  People make the decision to have kids WAY to casually.  If you aren't willing to put in the work to take care of your kids, then don't have kids.  You can't just push that responsibility off to "the system".

You can say it the other way around just as well. You can't just push that responsibility off to the parents.
Say it becomes that buying meth is as easy as purchasing cola (as it is with loot boxes). Good luck parents individually educating their kids. Not to say most parents don't even know about their existence to begin with.

...I'm going to leave that to stand on it's own. 

[wraper]

Note:
This is actually relevant here because we all have an interest in the tech world and this is an example of a stupid legislative reaction to a problem of scary new technology that's really a result of bad parenting, which is not going away any time soon and a slippery slope further down the road to anything "new" "digital" and "technology" being considered "bad for the children". 
For example, how about making all Youtube videos illegal since you don't know what ads you are going to see and kids might click them and buy something?

As this is electronics forum, imagine this. You purchase an oscilloscope. Start measuring signals, then it shows you a message: either you run 1000 loops around me before I do particular job properly, or pay 5 bucks and it might fix the problem. In small letters: there is 1 in 500 chance that you will win necessary option to do the job properly. Otherwise you get something useless Other oscilloscope manufacturers see it actually works and good way how to extort money out of customers, and all start doing same shit. In the end you cannot buy oscilloscope which is comfortable to use out of the box.

Good example.  Here is my answer:
If that requirement was in the spec for the scope before I bought it, then it's my fault for still buying that scope.  Again, personal responsibility. I can then chose to pay the $5, or not use the scope any more.  Now, if they do a firmware update which, after the sale, instates such silliness then that's a legal violation and completely different issue.
If other scope manufactures all start doing that sillyness and building scopes with such as noted in the spec at time of purchase, then that opens the market to another company that isn't being stupid.  No one forces you to buy that OWon scope.

If I have a requirement to measure pico-second jitter on some signal, and I still buy a cheap OWon scope now, it won't work and that's my fault.  I can't then try to get OWon scopes made illegal because I didn't read the spec or understand it or don't agree with it.

My response it this. In the spec you read: "In oscilloscope purchases available", nothing else.

I can then chose to pay the $5, or not use the scope any more

Only you likely will end up paying that for hundreds of times before you get what you need.
Look at freaking FIFA games. It's a full blown 60 dollar game, not free to play. Yet 2/3 of money EA collects comes from stupid micro transactions. If people don't know what's bad for them, then comes legislation.

[Smokey]

Note:
This is actually relevant here because we all have an interest in the tech world and this is an example of a stupid legislative reaction to a problem of scary new technology that's really a result of bad parenting, which is not going away any time soon and a slippery slope further down the road to anything "new" "digital" and "technology" being considered "bad for the children". 
For example, how about making all Youtube videos illegal since you don't know what ads you are going to see and kids might click them and buy something?

As this is electronics forum, imagine this. You purchase an oscilloscope. Start measuring signals, then it shows you a message: either you run 1000 loops around me before I do particular job properly, or pay 5 bucks and it might fix the problem. In small letters: there is 1 in 500 chance that you will win necessary option to do the job properly. Otherwise you get something useless Other oscilloscope manufacturers see it actually works and good way how to extort money out of customers, and all start doing same shit. In the end you cannot buy oscilloscope which is comfortable to use out of the box.

Good example.  Here is my answer:
If that requirement was in the spec for the scope before I bought it, then it's my fault for still buying that scope.  Again, personal responsibility. I can then chose to pay the $5, or not use the scope any more.  Now, if they do a firmware update which, after the sale, instates such silliness then that's a legal violation and completely different issue.
If other scope manufactures all start doing that sillyness and building scopes with such as noted in the spec at time of purchase, then that opens the market to another company that isn't being stupid.  No one forces you to buy that OWon scope.

If I have a requirement to measure pico-second jitter on some signal, and I still buy a cheap OWon scope now, it won't work and that's my fault.  I can't then try to get OWon scopes made illegal because I didn't read the spec or understand it or don't agree with it.

My response it this. In the spec you read: "In oscilloscope purchases available", nothing else.

I can then chose to pay the $5, or not use the scope any more

Only you likely will end up paying that for hundreds of times before you get what you need.
Look at freaking FIFA games. It's a full blown 60 dollar game, not free to play. Yet 2/3 of money EA collects comes from stupid micro transactions. If people don't know what's bad for them, then comes legislation.

If you sign a contract without reading it, that's your problem.  Just like the scope example, you better make sure the thing you are willing to spend your money on actually does what you need it to do before you buy it.  If you are unsure about how something will work but buy it anyway and it doesn't work as you hope then that's your problem.  By the way, that's a good life lesson on it's own and applies to much more than kids and oscilloscopes.  Good luck returning the car to the dealer when you get it home and realize it doesn't actually go 400mph like you hoped.

How about world of warcraft.  It's $15 a month.  Now consider starting out in wow that there is a certain game time investment just to get your character leveled up to the point that you can start doing stuff like raiding with your friends.  Say it takes you 1 month of game time to level up to the cap.  Fine.  Some people find that fun.  Others just want to get it over with.  Blizzard offers a "boost" for $60 to just skip that part of the game and have your character max out their level (at least they used to.)  That would save the person that doesn't want to grind for a full month all that time and makes their game experience much more pleasurable without effecting anyone else.  It's not required but it's an "in game purchase".  Should that be illegal too? 

[wraper]

How about world of warcraft.  It's $15 a month.  Now consider starting out in wow that there is a certain game time investment just to get your character leveled up to the point that you can start doing stuff like raiding with your friends.  Say it takes you 1 month of game time to level up to the cap.  Fine.  Some people find that fun.  Others just want to get it over with.  Blizzard offers a "boost" for $60 to just skip that part of the game and have your character max out their level (at least they used to.)  That would save the person that doesn't want to grind for a full month all that time and makes their game experience much more pleasurable without effecting anyone else.  It's not required but it's an "in game purchase".  Should that be illegal too?

I played WOW in the past. There were no micro transactions an the past and barely any today. Although I don't like that boost, it's understandable. Game came out in 2004 and had tons of additions since then  (each with new higher level cap). Boost allows you to skip all of the old stuff with little players which will take you months to level up through. There are still no loot boxes, which is good. BTW it's not only in game purchase, you can buy game with that included. The crap you get now have those loot boxes since day one  .

[madires]

What is loot boxes?

Loot boxes are basically treasure troves with random stuff helping your game character to stay alive or to get a better weapon, armour or other things like that. Since computer gaming became essentially online gaming publishers are trying different ways to make money. The last couple of years they've developed two main methods. The first is selling the game and offering in-game purchases for items to advance your player character faster (= additional profit for the publisher). The second one is to offer the game for free, making it hard and cumbersome to advance, but offering in-game purchases for items (mostly loot boxes). Because a loot box contains random stuff and you pay for it with real money it's a kind of online gambling. And since online gambling is a hot topic and online games are also played by minors several countries strongly disagree with that concept of loot boxes.

[wraper]

The second one is to offer the game for free, making it hard and cumbersome to advance, but offering in-game purchases for items (mostly loot boxes). Because a loot box contains random stuff and you pay for it with real money it's a kind of online gambling. And since online gambling is a hot topic and online games are also played by minors several countries strongly disagree with that concept of loot boxes.

The third is to sell the game at full price and shovel to customers all of that crap that comes with free to play.

[Ice-Tea]

How about world of warcraft.  It's $15 a month.  Now consider starting out in wow that there is a certain game time investment just to get your character leveled up to the point that you can start doing stuff like raiding with your friends.  Say it takes you 1 month of game time to level up to the cap.  Fine.  Some people find that fun.  Others just want to get it over with.  Blizzard offers a "boost" for $60 to just skip that part of the game and have your character max out their level (at least they used to.)  That would save the person that doesn't want to grind for a full month all that time and makes their game experience much more pleasurable without effecting anyone else.  It's not required but it's an "in game purchase".  Should that be illegal too?

There's a fundamental difference: the variable reward part. Pay A and get B is, phychologically, clear and not very addictive. You pay for a service/item. However, if you pay A and get B, C, D, E, F or nothing at all it has an addictive component to it.

Gambling is generally accepted (even if it is frowned upon) but it is also regulated. The problem with loot boxes in games is that is gambling without any kind of regulation.

[Smokey]

How about world of warcraft.  It's $15 a month.  Now consider starting out in wow that there is a certain game time investment just to get your character leveled up to the point that you can start doing stuff like raiding with your friends.  Say it takes you 1 month of game time to level up to the cap.  Fine.  Some people find that fun.  Others just want to get it over with.  Blizzard offers a "boost" for $60 to just skip that part of the game and have your character max out their level (at least they used to.)  That would save the person that doesn't want to grind for a full month all that time and makes their game experience much more pleasurable without effecting anyone else.  It's not required but it's an "in game purchase".  Should that be illegal too?

There's a fundamental difference: the variable reward part. Pay A and get B is, phychologically, clear and not very addictive. You pay for a service/item. However, if you pay A and get B, C, D, E, F or nothing at all it has an addictive component to it.

Gambling is generally accepted (even if it is frowned upon) but it is also regulated. The problem with loot boxes in games is that is gambling without any kind of regulation.

Again, how is that different from packs of baseball cards?

[madires]

Again, how is that different from packs of baseball cards?

The pack contains a specified number of baseball cards, the loot box contains a random number of random things.

[free_electron]

Note:
This is actually relevant here because we all have an interest in the tech world and this is an example of a stupid legislative reaction to a problem of scary new technology that's really a result of bad parenting, which is not going away any time soon and a slippery slope further down the road to anything "new" "digital" and "technology" being considered "bad for the children". 
For example, how about making all Youtube videos illegal since you don't know what ads you are going to see and kids might click them and buy something?

As this is electronics forum, imagine this. You purchase an oscilloscope. Start measuring signals, then it shows you a message: either you run 1000 loops around me before I do particular job properly, or pay 5 bucks and it might fix the problem. In small letters: there is 1 in 500 chance that you will win necessary option to do the job properly. Otherwise you get something useless. As in beginning it does not pop up that often, people just deal with it. Other oscilloscope manufacturers see it actually works and is an easiest way how to extort money out of customers, and all start doing same shit. As time goes by and people get used to it, it becomes worse and worse. So new oscilloscopes are pain to use without in oscilloscope gambling. In the end you cannot buy an oscilloscope which is comfortable to use out of the box.

except the game doesn't do anything useful. it's just timepass ....

[ajb]

Again, how is that different from packs of baseball cards?

The pack contains a specified number of baseball cards, the loot box contains a random number of random things.

I don't know about sports cards, but TCG booster packs at least generally guarantee you a certain number of common/uncommon/rare cards per pack, which is far more certainty than you get out of a loot box.  You also have the option to entirely short-circuit probability by buying the specific card you want on the open market, though obviously at a much higher per-card cost.

Really, loot boxes closely resemble gambling in many key respects, including the way that they affect people psychologically.  Given that gambling is widely regulated, why shouldn't things that are functionally equivalent be similarly regulated?