Author Topic: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?  (Read 263918 times)

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Offline penfold

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1450 on: March 03, 2022, 11:30:52 pm »
[...]
And i have used Excel to look into the behavior of my electons, compared to old (electron) electricity.
Plus as i said i used Excel to look into 3 electrons bumping 3 electrons to help find the speed of old (electron) electricity.
I made my own Excel programs for calculating say Coulomb force etc. But nowadays there are plenty of online calculators for almost everything.
[...]

Ahh yeah, when it comes down to the numbers of it, there's very little you can't do in excel, I guess it's only really quantum when that starts to get obscene, matrices as exponents... yuck. A 1D finite-difference Maxwell 'yee cell' does quite well in excel as well. Decimal places there is also quite interesting, after-all there aren't many instruments that can resolve to that precision directly and a numerical solution (in double precision at least) of something like time dilation, integrating a lot of small effects close to the rounding error (numerical noise floor) wouldn't make for a convincing proof from either side.
But, from a mainstream physics perspective, that's where the symbolic solutions (which can be more or less so apparent in different representations) and analysing the uncertainties that can arise due to noises, offsets and drifts (assumed from other experiments) and comparisons between repeat measurements are quite valuable. It's quite easy (for me at least) to forget quite how big 'physics' really is when considering that error analysis, statistics and computational techniques are pretty huge areas of study in themselves.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1451 on: March 03, 2022, 11:37:45 pm »
One of my engineer co-workers complained that Excel couldn't handle imaginary or complex numbers directly.
I reminded him that Excel was invented by accountants, and they were not allowed to use imaginary numbers under penalty of law.
 

Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1452 on: March 04, 2022, 06:36:38 am »

Some latch onto aethers, others to fields, as if they are real (some experimental evidence suggests that they are). Some go along with what the current fashionable consensus might be, others might be happy enough with the knowledge that something like the magnet force 'just is' and see no more mystery in it travelling through empty space than a particle going through an empty region. After all - there is no proof an object is not influenced only by its immediate surroundings (some evidence they are), there is no reason to suppose that anything in between the points is needed to mediate anything where there is no cause and effect there, and no proof that anything actually travels through the space.

So that gets back to the magnets. If I move one, we now know (or can justifiably assume to know) that the potential action appears to travel at the speed of light. This statement alone perfectly defines a spherical shell of potential action expanding at the speed of light. Forgetting about the mechanics of BxH for the moment, that qualitatively defines the wavefront travelling through space - hence what I said about "we are watching the fabric of time itself in action".




Ok I think I accept Feynman's answer, that we can keep asking "why" ad nauseam after hearing "they do". But his appeal is not to something deep and mysterious, instead to something so shallow and readily apparent that it gets taken for granted.

I brought up my observation(s) in this same light - a simplistic view mixed with up to date knowledge. Yet without getting the details correct (or needing to, being the point) or cherry-picking anything beyond a speed, or even thinking, I have come up with a picture that looks the same as a full Maxwell simulation on screen (ie, animator vs field solver).

To that I ask "why"? Did I cherry-pick the only thing that matters? I'm talking (in my earlier post) about the H field and its momentum, the slowing.

On the other hand, I did find this yesterday, I don't know if connected to anyone here, but it seems like a good way to refresh (any)one's tattered or effectively nonexistent knowledge:

https://www.maxwells-equations.com/m/index.php
 

Offline HuronKing

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1453 on: March 04, 2022, 06:58:14 pm »
Ok I think I accept Feynman's answer, that we can keep asking "why" ad nauseam after hearing "they do". But his appeal is not to something deep and mysterious, instead to something so shallow and readily apparent that it gets taken for granted.

I don't think that's quite what he is saying. He is saying that the underlying phenomena is so deep and mysterious that to truly understand it requires appealing to logic and analysis techniques that fall very far outside our ordinary, everyday intuition.

Even his quick answer around the 5:38 minute mark belies an analogy that is imperfect if he had been pressed on it - that about 'electrons spinning in iron and getting lined up to amplify the effect of the field so you can feel the force between two magnets at a large distance.'
The amount of mathematical rigor and physical experiment to arrive at that explanation for forces between magnets is enormous and requires a lot of preparatory study and this is why Feynman says he can't explain magnets in terms familiar to the untrained because the analogies you start to make end up sounding ridiculous (rubber bands, or noting that electrons have an anomalous magnetic dipole moment...)
"Magnets are magnetic because they're made up of lots of little magnets."  ;D
 
Some people might say he just sucks as a teacher... but I laugh at that.

And this is also the reason relativity and quantum mechanics are so often attacked by crackpots as the article I posted many pages ago goes into. The predictions of these theories are so far afield from our everyday experience that one could have a visceral reaction to accepting it... until one really dives into the experiments and mathematics that predict the phenomena (and having to ignore all the devices we use whose operation was engineered from the physics). Then, as Feynman says in his other video on pseudoscience I posted, you can't just tear down the extant theory without putting SOMETHING ELSE there to replace it that has the same predictive power as the extant theory. This is why GR superseded Newtonian Gravity, of course - GR predicts everything NG does while also being able to accurately predict the observed perihelion of Mercury.

It's also why I have some small contempt for people who say they want to overturn all of physics without even a passing understanding of multivariable vector calculus.

Quote
I brought up my observation(s) in this same light - a simplistic view mixed with up to date knowledge. Yet without getting the details correct (or needing to, being the point) or cherry-picking anything beyond a speed, or even thinking, I have come up with a picture that looks the same as a full Maxwell simulation on screen (ie, animator vs field solver).

To that I ask "why"? Did I cherry-pick the only thing that matters? I'm talking (in my earlier post) about the H field and its momentum, the slowing.

You can make a picture that explains one aspect of the phenomena but the power of Maxwell's Eqs is that it is predictive of ALL (in the classical limit) electromagnetic phenomena.

I haven't followed the ancillary discussions closely enough to comment any more substantially than that.  :-X


« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 07:20:03 pm by HuronKing »
 
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Offline aetherist

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1454 on: March 04, 2022, 09:36:13 pm »
And this is also the reason relativity and quantum mechanics are so often attacked by crackpots as the article I posted many pages ago goes into. The predictions of these theories are so far afield from our everyday experience that one could have a visceral reaction to accepting it... until one really dives into the experiments and mathematics that predict the phenomena (and having to ignore all the devices we use whose operation was engineered from the physics). Then, as Feynman says in his other video on pseudoscience I posted, you can't just tear down the extant theory without putting SOMETHING ELSE there to replace it that has the same predictive power as the extant theory. This is why GR superseded Newtonian Gravity, of course - GR predicts everything NG does while also being able to accurately predict the observed perihelion of Mercury.
GTR does not predict Mercury's orbit. Firstly it was a postdiction, after a few years of trying (where Einstein finally got his recipe right). Secondly we are not sure what the size of the anomaly is. Thirdly we are not sure of the Newtonian component. Fourthly modern computer analysis shows that GTR duznt even give Mercury a proper orbit, Mercury flies off in a short time.
It's also why I have some small contempt for people who say they want to overturn all of physics without even a passing understanding of multivariable vector calculus.
Stephen Crothers explains that GTR invokes pseudo-vectors, & that Einstein lacks an understanding of vectors.
You can make a picture that explains one aspect of the phenomena but the power of Maxwell's Eqs is that it is predictive of ALL (in the classical limit) electromagnetic phenomena.
I thought that Einstein got the idea for his 1905 paper on STR because the standard explanation failed as to why if a magnet was passed through a loop of wire then the wire got an electric current & vice versa.
However Einsteinists are happy to ignore that Einstein's STR fails to explain Faraday's homopolar disc generator, re the voltage produced by spinning discs & spinning magnets. More than that, STR contradicts those experiments. In other words the experiments prove that STR is wrong, at least re that aspect of electricity.
Faraday's homopolar disc generator is however easily explained by the existence of the aether.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 09:40:41 pm by aetherist »
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1455 on: March 04, 2022, 10:08:17 pm »
I found this useful lecture:  https://itp.uni-frankfurt.de/~hees/pf-faq/homopolar.pdf
Quoting the paper:  "It is surprising that the so-called Faraday paradox is still a source of confusion although the “electrody-
namics of moving bodies” is well understood with Einstein’s famous special-relativity paper. Here, I
try to give an explanation by avoiding the use of the integral form of Maxwell’s equation, which seems
to be the main source of the confusion."
Instead of ad hominem attacks on dead scientists, I suggest you read the 7-page paper.
 

Offline aetherist

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1456 on: March 04, 2022, 10:24:35 pm »
I found this useful lecture:  https://itp.uni-frankfurt.de/~hees/pf-faq/homopolar.pdf
Quoting the paper:  "It is surprising that the so-called Faraday paradox is still a source of confusion although the “electrody-
namics of moving bodies” is well understood with Einstein’s famous special-relativity paper. Here, I
try to give an explanation by avoiding the use of the integral form of Maxwell’s equation, which seems
to be the main source of the confusion."
Instead of ad hominem attacks on dead scientists, I suggest you read the 7-page paper.
I saw nothing in that paper that explained how there is a voltage when the disc & a disc magnet are spinning locked together as one, when the relative motion is zero.

I saw nothing that explained how if the disc was static & the disc magnet was spinning then how is there zero voltage even tho there is a non-zero relative motion.




Faraday paradox unipolar dynamo demo Part1
38,492 views  Aug 27, 2014   410   plenum88    1.56K subscribers    168 Comments 

part2 at: https://youtu.be/c5wgmTGi5pU

This video is a demonstration of the Faraday paradox using a 3D printed unipolar dynamo The unipolar generator is composed of three key elements - a copper disk, a ring magnet, and a stator wire circuit to the oscilloscope, all three of which are independently rotatable. A stepper motor is used to set rotation at a fixed speed, using an Arduino control board. In part 1, we explore the essential elements of the paradox, namely the apparent magnetic induction which occurs between the co-rotating disk and magnetic elements in the device. The controversy reduces to the key question: do the magnetic lines of force rotate with the magnet or not? Einstein and Maxwell / Faraday disagreed on this point, which has also been phrased: what is the seat of the electromagnetic induction? To be continued with part2.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 10:39:44 pm by aetherist »
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1457 on: March 04, 2022, 10:45:46 pm »
What is your reference with experimental data that shows a voltage when the disc and disc magnet move together?
Faraday's homopolar generator is shown in this 1884 drawing:  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Faraday_disk_generator.jpg  Note the rotating disc and fixed magnet.
This article (which you need to go to a library for) explains the "paradox".  https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6404/ab2345
Every historical or explanatory reference I can find to Faraday's generator shows a rotating disc and a stationary magnet.
 

Offline aetherist

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1458 on: March 04, 2022, 11:12:18 pm »
What is your reference with experimental data that shows a voltage when the disc and disc magnet move together?
Faraday's homopolar generator is shown in this 1884 drawing:  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Faraday_disk_generator.jpg  Note the rotating disc and fixed magnet.
This article (which you need to go to a library for) explains the "paradox".  https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6404/ab2345
Every historical or explanatory reference I can find to Faraday's generator shows a rotating disc and a stationary magnet.
I added a youtube to my previous reply. There are lots of similar youtubes re this paradox. With aether it is indeed a paradox. Without aether it is a catastrophe.
 

Offline HuronKing

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1459 on: March 04, 2022, 11:38:33 pm »
GTR does not predict Mercury's orbit. Firstly it was a postdiction, after a few years of trying (where Einstein finally got his recipe right). Secondly we are not sure what the size of the anomaly is. Thirdly we are not sure of the Newtonian component. Fourthly modern computer analysis shows that GTR duznt even give Mercury a proper orbit, Mercury flies off in a short time.

https://aether.lbl.gov/www/classes/p10/gr/PrecessionperihelionMercury.htm

And if anyone really cares to see the derivation of the mathematics:
https://www.math.toronto.edu/~colliand/426_03/Papers03/C_Pollock.pdf

Quote
Stephen Crothers explains that GTR invokes pseudo-vectors, & that Einstein lacks an understanding of vectors.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. You're seriously going to cite Stephen Crothers at me? HAHAHAHA.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Stephen_J._Crothers

Quote
I thought that Einstein got the idea for his 1905 paper on STR because the standard explanation failed as to why if a magnet was passed through a loop of wire then the wire got an electric current & vice versa.

That was a motivating idea... but he also wrote,

"Examples of this sort [the moving conductor problem], together with the unsuccessful attempts to discover any motion of the earth relatively to the “light medium,” suggest that the phenomena of electrodynamics as well as of mechanics possess no properties corresponding to the idea of absolute rest."
-- Albert Einstein, 1905

Quote
However Einsteinists are happy to ignore that Einstein's STR fails to explain Faraday's homopolar disc generator, re the voltage produced by spinning discs & spinning magnets. More than that, STR contradicts those experiments. In other words the experiments prove that STR is wrong, at least re that aspect of electricity.
Faraday's homopolar disc generator is however easily explained by the existence of the aether.

Ahh I should've expected the Faraday Disc Generator to get a mention at some point. Are you just checking off the boxes on all the crackpot theories you can cram into one thread (seriously, I am still reeling to see Stephen Crothers get a shoutout).

As for the disc generator, I admit I don't fully understand the correct solution. Feynman alluded to it in his lectures (again, allergy warning) but left it as an exercise for the reader (in the grand tradition of physics professors):
https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_17.html
https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_13.html

Fortunately, Panofsky and Philips give a more in-depth treatment of the problem as well as an in-depth treatment of the relationship between electromagnetism and relativity. And the answer is... of course special relativity isn't sufficient to explain the phenomena because we aren't discussing inertial reference frames (p.337-339) - you need to use general relativity:
https://dokumen.tips/documents/panofsky-and-philips-classical-electricity-and-magnetism-2nd-edpdf.html?page=349

I am aware that there are some authors who think SR is sufficient to explain the Faraday generator but I am more persuaded by the arguments of Panofsky and Philips that the requirements for SR are not met in the problem. Maybe there is an interpretation of SR that allows it to work - for me, I'm satisfied that GR explains it.

What I am not persuaded by is screaming 'AETHERWIND!' when it has no measurable properties, no predictive properties, and nothing but pseudoscientific gobbledygook.

You remind me of those poor sea creatures who starve to death on a full stomach - because they've been eating plastic. I'll grant you that you've read and exposed yourself to lots of... stuff... but I fear that for as full as your mind's stomach is there is tremendous intellectual starvation going on.


 

Offline aetherist

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1460 on: March 05, 2022, 12:32:46 am »
 :=\
GTR does not predict Mercury's orbit. Firstly it was a postdiction, after a few years of trying (where Einstein finally got his recipe right). Secondly we are not sure what the size of the anomaly is. Thirdly we are not sure of the Newtonian component. Fourthly modern computer analysis shows that GTR duznt even give Mercury a proper orbit, Mercury flies off in a short time.
url=https://aether.lbl.gov/www/classes/p10/gr/PrecessionperihelionMercury.htm]https://aether.lbl.gov/www/classes/p10/gr/PrecessionperihelionMercury.htm[/url]
And if anyone really cares to see the derivation of the mathematics:
https://www.math.toronto.edu/~colliand/426_03/Papers03/C_Pollock.pdf
Quote
Stephen Crothers explains that GTR invokes pseudo-vectors, & that Einstein lacks an understanding of vectors.
HAHAHAHAHAHA. You're seriously going to cite Stephen Crothers at me? HAHAHAHA.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Stephen_J._Crothers
Quote
I thought that Einstein got the idea for his 1905 paper on STR because the standard explanation failed as to why if a magnet was passed through a loop of wire then the wire got an electric current & vice versa.
That was a motivating idea... but he also wrote,
"Examples of this sort [the moving conductor problem], together with the unsuccessful attempts to discover any motion of the earth relatively to the “light medium,” suggest that the phenomena of electrodynamics as well as of mechanics possess no properties corresponding to the idea of absolute rest."
-- Albert Einstein, 1905
Quote
However Einsteinists are happy to ignore that Einstein's STR fails to explain Faraday's homopolar disc generator, re the voltage produced by spinning discs & spinning magnets. More than that, STR contradicts those experiments. In other words the experiments prove that STR is wrong, at least re that aspect of electricity.
Faraday's homopolar disc generator is however easily explained by the existence of the aether.
Ahh I should've expected the Faraday Disc Generator to get a mention at some point. Are you just checking off the boxes on all the crackpot theories you can cram into one thread (seriously, I am still reeling to see Stephen Crothers get a shoutout).
As for the disc generator, I admit I don't fully understand the correct solution. Feynman alluded to it in his lectures (again, allergy warning) but left it as an exercise for the reader (in the grand tradition of physics professors):
https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_17.html
https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_13.html

Fortunately, Panofsky and Philips give a more in-depth treatment of the problem as well as an in-depth treatment of the relationship between electromagnetism and relativity. And the answer is... of course special relativity isn't sufficient to explain the phenomena because we aren't discussing inertial reference frames (p.337-339) - you need to use general relativity:
https://dokumen.tips/documents/panofsky-and-philips-classical-electricity-and-magnetism-2nd-edpdf.html?page=349
I am aware that there are some authors who think SR is sufficient to explain the Faraday generator but I am more persuaded by the arguments of Panofsky and Philips that the requirements for SR are not met in the problem. Maybe there is an interpretation of SR that allows it to work - for me, I'm satisfied that GR explains it.

What I am not persuaded by is screaming 'AETHERWIND!' when it has no measurable properties, no predictive properties, and nothing but pseudoscientific gobbledygook.

You remind me of those poor sea creatures who starve to death on a full stomach - because they've been eating plastic. I'll grant you that you've read and exposed yourself to lots of... stuff... but I fear that for as full as your mind's stomach is there is tremendous intellectual starvation going on.
I don’t invoke aetherwind to explain the Faraday Disc Paradox, i invoke aether.

I see that Feynman waves away the catastrophe by simply saying that a magnetic field can't move. Here he is agreeing that a magnetic field is static in the aether.

I doubt that Einsteinist's can explain away their catastrophe for the Faraday Disc Paradox by invoking GTR. However Einsteinists have an almost limitless menu of fudges twists tricks etc. The youtube i linked mentions about 6 different motions of the discs & probes. I doubt that GTR can explain even one of them.

But lets eliminate GTR by changing the spinning discs to non-spinning discs. We remove the axles. Now instead of spinning the discs we simply move them up or down either individually or together or in opposite directions, hence we have the same number of 6 different motions, & we will see the same kinds of voltages, & there is no possibility of GTR playing a role here in any way.

STR is krapp -- & GTR is mostly krapp.
We are presently in the Einsteinian Dark Age of science -- but the times they are a-changin'.
The aether will return -- it never left.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 12:43:05 am by aetherist »
 

Offline aetherist

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1461 on: March 05, 2022, 01:03:17 am »
As for the disc generator, I admit I don't fully understand the correct solution. Feynman alluded to it in his lectures (again, allergy warning) but left it as an exercise for the reader (in the grand tradition of physics professors):
https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_17.html
https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_13.html
I see that Feynman loves the STR explanation of magnetic attraction to a  wire. But as i have explained a number of times on this thread the equations say for the force tween parallel wires relate to the amps in the wire(s), & they ignore the diameters. But, for say 1.0 Amp, if the ave drift vel is say 1 m/s, then if the wire is 1/10th the dia then the ave vel of the drifting electrons in the wire is say 100 m/s, & if the wire is 10 times the dia then the ave vel is 0.01 m/s, in which case the relativistic calc of the force will i think be in the ratio 10:1:0.1, whereas Ampere's Law tells us the ratio is 1:1:1.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biot%E2%80%93Savart_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amp%C3%A8re%27s_force_law

Special case: Two straight parallel wires[edit]
The best-known and simplest example of Ampère's force law, which underlaid (before 20 May 2019[1]) the definition of the ampere, the SI unit of current, states that the magnetic force per unit length between two straight parallel conductors is where   is the magnetic force constant from the Biot–Savart law,   is the total force on either wire per unit length of the shorter (the longer is approximated as infinitely long relative to the shorter),   is the distance between the two wires, and  ,   are the direct currents carried by the wires.
This is a good approximation if one wire is sufficiently longer than the other, so that it can be approximated as infinitely long, and if the distance between the wires is small compared to their lengths (so that the one infinite-wire approximation holds), but large compared to their diameters (so that they may also be approximated as infinitely thin lines). The value of   depends upon the system of units chosen, and the value of   decides how large the unit of current will be. In the SI system,[2][3] with   the magnetic constant, defined in SI units as[4][5] Thus, in vacuum, the force per meter of length between two parallel conductors – spaced apart by 1 m and each carrying a current of 1 A – is exactly
 

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1462 on: March 05, 2022, 01:27:58 am »
Quote
I don’t invoke aetherwind to explain the Faraday Disc Paradox, i invoke aether.

I don't see how that explains it either. In the experiment videos you posted the only constant is the pickup moving across the disk. When the disk rotates and the magnet doesn't there is a voltage, but the pickup is moving relative to the disk. When the disk is stationary and the magnet rotates there is no voltage, and the pickup is also stationary relative to the disk. When the disk and magnet are stationary but the pickup is waggled back and forth, there is a voltage.

Clearly, from that experiment the magnet is superfluous and the interaction of the pickup with the disk is what is causing the voltage (somehow). Is aether the lubricant? Can't see how it can be anything else since whether it (aether) is moving relative to the disk or pickup is irrelevant.
 

Offline aetherist

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1463 on: March 05, 2022, 01:59:11 am »
Quote
I don’t invoke aetherwind to explain the Faraday Disc Paradox, i invoke aether.

I don't see how that explains it either. In the experiment videos you posted the only constant is the pickup moving across the disk. When the disk rotates and the magnet doesn't there is a voltage, but the pickup is moving relative to the disk. When the disk is stationary and the magnet rotates there is no voltage, and the pickup is also stationary relative to the disk. When the disk and magnet are stationary but the pickup is waggled back and forth, there is a voltage.

Clearly, from that experiment the magnet is superfluous and the interaction of the pickup with the disk is what is causing the voltage (somehow). Is aether the lubricant? Can't see how it can be anything else since whether it (aether) is moving relative to the disk or pickup is irrelevant.
Yes, there are lots of youtubes re the FDP, & the later ones start to twig that the probes have their own V.
I said that aether explains, & aetherwind aint needed. That’s a bit of a white lie. In fact the aetherwind presents its own paradox (i hope it aint a catastrophe)(gulp). Koz, for one thing, the aetherwind is always there, blowing through our labs at 500 km/s.

When the magnetic disc is stationary, it aint. It is moving at 500 km/s, through the aether. And, if the Cu disc is stationary, next to the stationary magnetic disc, then it too is moving at 500 km/s through the aether. And so are the probes. And so is the Voltmeter. However, i reckon that the relative speed tween the Cu disc etc & the magnetic field is zero km/s, hence this explains the zero Voltage.
In a similar way the aetherwind always comes into play in every science instance that we could ever think of, & whenever i simply mention or invoke the aether (ie when i ignore the aetherwind) then i am telling a white lie. In some instances it duznt matter, but in some it (the aetherwind) creates a paradox even for old aetherists like myself.

But i don’t see how the probes/pickup can induce a voltage in the Cu disc. It would be like a spinning Cu disc inducing a voltage in a stationary Cu disc.
Actually, i would not be surprised if there was a weak voltage. I reckon that free surface electrons must exist on both Cu discs, & these electrons would repel.
I have an idea, if the 2 discs had a 50% overlap, instead of a 100% overlap, ie if the axles were separated by say R, then i think that we would have a voltage if the spin rate was superfast. Due to the free surface electrons having to move to redistribute the charge, due to repulsion (there being no magnetic field)(correction, there would be a magnetic field due to the flow of the free surface electrons). In which case this might create a positive additive feedback in which case we could have a significant V (albeit still very weak).
Experiment needed.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 02:04:28 am by aetherist »
 

Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1464 on: March 05, 2022, 04:06:32 am »
I see that Feynman loves the STR explanation of magnetic attraction to a  wire. But as i have explained a number of times on this thread the equations say for the force tween parallel wires relate to the amps in the wire(s), & they ignore the diameters. But, for say 1.0 Amp, if the ave drift vel is say 1 m/s, then if the wire is 1/10th the dia then the ave vel of the drifting electrons in the wire is say 100 m/s, & if the wire is 10 times the dia then the ave vel is 0.01 m/s, in which case the relativistic calc of the force will i think be in the ratio 10:1:0.1, whereas Ampere's Law tells us the ratio is 1:1:1.

I did notice that, and simply agreed with it (in general with other stuff), which may have falsely given the impression that I supported it, or even think it is correct. (By agreeing, I simply was prospounding the view that no idea is a bad idea, no matter how bad they seem until the latter is proven. And by "prospounding" I mean that I felt like making up a word that has an apparent meaning, but no actual meaning, and hold out a hope that one day the meaning will return.)

I'm only guessing, because I haven't done the math/s, but: A wire carrying 1A through a 1(mm^2) area will have 10% as much charge in a short volume as a wire of 10(mm^2). If the full 100% charge moves at 10% of the speed for the same 1A, then the contraction and stuff is 10% (for 10% force when considering a 1(mm^2) area of it). But there are 9 other parallel flows parallel to it, bringing the total force to 100%.

The math/s, the mistakes, and the moral of the story:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/231009511_Lorentz_contraction_and_current-carrying_wires
 

Offline aetherist

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1465 on: March 05, 2022, 04:52:38 am »
I see that Feynman loves the STR explanation of magnetic attraction to a  wire. But as i have explained a number of times on this thread the equations say for the force tween parallel wires relate to the amps in the wire(s), & they ignore the diameters. But, for say 1.0 Amp, if the ave drift vel is say 1 m/s, then if the wire is 1/10th the dia then the ave vel of the drifting electrons in the wire is say 100 m/s, & if the wire is 10 times the dia then the ave vel is 0.01 m/s, in which case the relativistic calc of the force will i think be in the ratio 10:1:0.1, whereas Ampere's Law tells us the ratio is 1:1:1.
I did notice that, and simply agreed with it (in general with other stuff), which may have falsely given the impression that I supported it, or even think it is correct. (By agreeing, I simply was prospounding the view that no idea is a bad idea, no matter how bad they seem until the latter is proven. And by "prospounding" I mean that I felt like making up a word that has an apparent meaning, but no actual meaning, and hold out a hope that one day the meaning will return.)

I'm only guessing, because I haven't done the math/s, but: A wire carrying 1A through a 1(mm^2) area will have 10% as much charge in a short volume as a wire of 10(mm^2). If the full 100% charge moves at 10% of the speed for the same 1A, then the contraction and stuff is 10% (for 10% force when considering a 1(mm^2) area of it). But there are 9 other parallel flows parallel to it, bringing the total force to 100%.

The math/s, the mistakes, and the moral of the story:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/231009511_Lorentz_contraction_and_current-carrying_wires
Well spotted. But the ratio of total force is still in error.
I mentioned a dia ratio of 10 to 1 to 0.1, which gave an area ratio of 100 to 1 to 0.01, which gave an ave vel ratio of 100 to 1 to 0.01 (for the same Amp), which gave a length contraction ratio of 10 to 1 to 0.1, which i said gave a force ratio of 0.1 to 1 to 10. Except that i made a mistake, i said 10 to 1 to 0.1.
Now, the ratios of the numbers of electrons involved in the moving is not 10 to 1 to 0.1, but if it were then STR would give Ampere's desired 1 to 1 to 1.
The ratios of the numbers of electrons involved is 100 to 1 to 0.01, which gives a force ratio of 10 to 1 to 0.1 (not the desired STR of 1 to 1 to 1). Which is what i said. However i had 2 mistakes. Firstly i had the ratios arse about. Secondly (as u pointed out) i forgot to take into account the ratio of the electrons on the move, ie 10 to 1 to 0.1, using your wires, but 100 to 1 to 0.01 using my wires.
But (like Einstein in his bending of light), i had the correct answer for the wrong reason(s).

Conclusion. Einstein's STR fails to properly explain magnetism near a wire.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 07:20:33 pm by aetherist »
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1466 on: March 05, 2022, 11:08:23 pm »
Quote
Stephen Crothers explains that GTR invokes pseudo-vectors, & that Einstein lacks an understanding of vectors.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. You're seriously going to cite Stephen Crothers at me? HAHAHAHA.

Man, it is striking to see how the arguments of these crackpots obey the same pattern. He thinks that pseudovectors are something someone who doesn't understand of vectors "invokes".

From wikipedia:
Quote
Physical examples of pseudovectors include torque, angular velocity, angular momentum, magnetic field, and magnetic dipole moment.

It's the same thing with the KVLiars, who think that "invoking" the concept of non-conservative fields to explain why KVL doesn't hold for a circuit immersed in a varying magnetic field means that energy is not conserved and therefore Walter Lewin doesn't understand how magnetic induction works.

And thank you for the eye-opening videos from Professor Dave Explains about the debunking of those pseudo-science con artists' claims. They show that misleading the audience has become a lucrative business for incompetent people with a hidden agenda.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 12:44:03 am by bsfeechannel »
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1467 on: March 05, 2022, 11:47:26 pm »
In some circles, the study of crackpots is known as "psychoceramics".
 
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Offline aetherist

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1468 on: March 05, 2022, 11:48:16 pm »
Quote
Stephen Crothers explains that GTR invokes pseudo-vectors, & that Einstein lacks an understanding of vectors.
HAHAHAHAHAHA. You're seriously going to cite Stephen Crothers at me? HAHAHAHA.
Man, it is striking to see how the argument of these crackpots obey the same pattern. He thinks that pseudovectors are something someone who doesn't understand of vectors "invokes".
From wikipedia:
Quote
Physical examples of pseudovectors include torque, angular velocity, angular momentum, magnetic field, and magnetic dipole moment.
It's the same thing with the KVLiars, who think that "invoking" the concept of non-conservative fields to explain why KVL doesn't hold for a circuit immersed in a varying magnetic field means that energy is not conserved and therefore Walter Lewin doesn't understand how magnetic induction works.

And thank you for the eye-opening videos from Professor Dave Explains about the debunking of those pseudo-science con artists' claims. They show that misleading the audience has become a lucrative business for incompetent people with a hidden agenda.
prof Dave appears to have lots of good stuff in his youtube site. He has 1.85 million subscribers & 158 million views.
Dr Pierre-Marie Robitaille has 37k subscribers & 1.7 million views.
prof Dave got 512k views for his debunking footage. Dr Pierre-Marie Robitaille got 49k views for his debunking of prof Dave's debunking. And clearly Dr Pierre-Marie Robitaille's debunking wins 100 to zero. prof Dave can be seen to be very ignorant in the CMBR area.

I have emailed Crothers to ask him if the wiki pseudo vectors are in the same category as the Einstein (GTR) pseudo vectors.

Einstein’s Pseudotensor- a Meaningless Concoction of Mathematical Symbols   Stephen J. Crothers   23 January 2020
Abstract: In an attempt to make his General Theory of Relativity comply with the usual conservation of energy and momentum for a closed system which a vast array of experiments has ascertained, Mr. A. Einstein constructed, ad hoc, his pseudotensor. That it is not a tensor is outside the very mathematical structure of his theory. Beyond that, it violates the rules of pure mathematics. It is therefore a meaningless concoction of mathematical symbols.


https://vixra.org/pdf/2001.0499v1.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudovector

I havnt studied the KVL Lewin saga. But from what i have seen it appears to me that Lewin is wrong, & Mehdi & Co are correct.
I dont remember what eev-Dave said.
The  probes can deceive.
This probe problem shows up in the Faraday Disc Paradox too.








« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 11:54:47 pm by aetherist »
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1469 on: March 05, 2022, 11:51:20 pm »
Views on YouTube are not to be considered peer review.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1470 on: March 06, 2022, 01:17:07 am »
And clearly Dr Pierre-Marie Robitaille's debunking wins 100 to zero.

That's your opinion.

Pierre Robitaille is a con artist. And we don't need Professor Dave to tell it. Pierre made a video to "prove" that Kirchhoff's law of thermal radiation is invalid. But his experiment, as it happens with every single proponent of unscientific ideas, was deliberately rigged.

Many people pointed that out in the comments, but Pierre didn't care. Why? Because Pierre Robitaille is a creationist and represents creationists, and by "invalidating" Kirchhoff's law of thermal radiation he can say that the big bang theory is false, because he and the group he represents think that the big bang kills his god.

He knows the truth, but he decided to deceive his audience.

Pathetic.

Quote
I havnt studied the KVL Lewin saga. But from what i have seen it appears to me that Lewin is wrong, & Mehdi & Co are correct.

There. That's what we needed: some crackpot somewhat considering Mehdi to be in the same category as Robitaille. 

Thank you very much.

I'm looking forward to seeing Mehdi make a video advocating the idea that the sun is in fact the anode of an arc lamp that can be modeled as a transistor.







 

Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1471 on: March 06, 2022, 02:25:08 am »
Seeing as I'm passing... I shudder to think of how I've portrayed myself in this thread, naturally, I'm open-minded and supportive of ideas and beliefs, whether scientific, religious or alt-science, sometimes it takes a little more effort than others but I think I'd appear similar to a vegan demanding a grilled aubergine at a fox-hunt - my objection to either life-choice is non-existent(-ish) but I would be saying "...read the room, dear" and slowly reach an internal divide by zero exception.
...

I've had to wonder the same thing, especially with my impractically loose anonymity and the general lay expectation that engineering is a professional career choice :). But no one who knows me could be surprised at the spouting of endless BS, with things like "An objective reality clearly exists at the individual level, but society as a whole is limited to belief.".

What has been an eye-opener is the 'repeatability' of crackpotisim (eg crackpot index), and its overlap with some of what mainstream science might be if someone really were to be "on the cutting edge of a paradigm shift". Maybe I shouldn't give science (the consensus, not the method) such a hard ride if belief (faith) in it is the only thing which stops the so-called developed world from regressing into some wild existence at the first mis-step (as some of its adherents seem to unquestioningly assume, and the behaviour of this decade so far seems to confirm in many heaping spades). Maybe science does need to progress one funeral at a time, perhaps any original thoughts I have should immediately be flung into the short conical frustum filing cabinet. I was going to make a joke comparing it with viXra, but perhaps that's a bit unfair, and perhaps this repeatability implies that crackpotism is a valid (or at least expected) facet of science? Not one to cut out in ever-deeper slices until all knowledge disappears up a vortex of its own infallibility. But - the spouting, the BS.

Not being one to ignore an opportunity to know when to stop, a current example being "Conclusion. Einstein's STR fails to properly explain magnetism near a wire." - if I say I believe that is equal in meaning to "Einstein's STR is successful at properly explaining magnetism near a wire." then people will conclude I am crazy (same etymology as crackpot, another thing I learned here, I will never drop hot glass in water the same again, or rather I will tone my squeak of excitement more towards the pitch of a maniacal laugh). But to science the method, they are equal.
 

Offline HuronKing

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1472 on: March 06, 2022, 05:17:49 am »
I don’t invoke aetherwind to explain the Faraday Disc Paradox, i invoke aether.

Oh right, of course, how silly of me. The aether is static when you need it to be and blowing when you need it to be.

Who needs consistency in a theory when you're making it up as you go along without a shred of mathematics?

Quote
I see that Feynman waves away the catastrophe by simply saying that a magnetic field can't move. Here he is agreeing that a magnetic field is static in the aether.

The material is probably too advanced if that was your takeaway.

Quote
I doubt that Einsteinist's can explain away their catastrophe for the Faraday Disc Paradox by invoking GTR. However Einsteinists have an almost limitless menu of fudges twists tricks etc. The youtube i linked mentions about 6 different motions of the discs & probes. I doubt that GTR can explain even one of them.

But lets eliminate GTR by changing the spinning discs to non-spinning discs. We remove the axles. Now instead of spinning the discs we simply move them up or down either individually or together or in opposite directions, hence we have the same number of 6 different motions, & we will see the same kinds of voltages, & there is no possibility of GTR playing a role here in any way.

Are you sure? Have you done this experiment? Do you have any idea what the difference is between a rotating non-inertial reference frame and an inertial reference frame?

I'm going to jump ahead to something else you said to someone else because it's relevant,

Quote
I havnt studied the KVL Lewin saga. But from what i have seen it appears to me that Lewin is wrong, & Mehdi & Co are correct.

Not that I wish to dredge up the pseudoscience of Mehdi and Co. in this thread - but it is not surprising you don't understand relativity in the Faraday Disc and also agree with Mehdi and Co.
I say this because what's tricky about the Faraday Disc is that it is a rotating field - i.e. it is a non-conservative field so it also exhibits path-dependency.

Now I admit I stated this is a GR phenomena and referred you to Panofsky & Philips who themselves would refer you to Schiff so maybe you want more details. For that - I'd suggest this paper but the mathematics are ghastly and if you're weak in calculus this will just make your eyes bleed:
"Charged Particles and the Electro-Magnetic Field in Non-Inertial Frames of Minkowski Spacetime: II. Applications: Rotating Frames, Sagnac Effect, Faraday Rotation, Wrap-up Effect"
https://arxiv.org/pdf/0908.0215.pdf

If this is too hard (let's be real, it is very hard), then try these introductory texts on the trickiness of rotating reference frames:
https://phys.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Relativity/Book%3A_Special_Relativity_(Crowell)/08%3A_Rotation/8.01%3A_Rotating_Frames_of_Reference
https://phys.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Relativity/Supplemental_Modules_(Relativity)/Miscellaneous_Relativity_Topics/GENERAL_RELATIVITY_-_a_primer

And honestly, before getting all worked up about the Faraday Disc, which is an immensely complex problem, the solution to the disc is wrapped up in the same solution that the two links above are really driving at - solving the Ehrenfest Paradox (the solution to which motivated the creation of General Relativity).

There has been quite a bit of literature written on the electrodynamics of rotating reference frames. This isn't even the tip of the tip of the iceberg:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0031891464901065?via%3Dihub

And I'm not terribly interested in parsing your interpretation of Biot-Savart and Ampere. I'm much more persuaded by the fact that we can start with Lorentz transformations and Gauss' Law and use relativity to derive Ampere's Law mathematically:
https://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/tong/em/el4.pdf

@bsfeechannel - if you're reading this, then the links above are utterly fascinating to me as the circular train clock synchronization scenario reminds me of line integration around a circulating magnetic field adding up to non-zero EMF as predicted by Faraday's Law. The synchronization of the clocks is also non-zero. In the second link, even though Clocks 1 and 2 are both on they disk, both rotating at the same rate, they do not read the same times after circumventing different closed paths. It gives me a lot of amazing things to ponder about the physical meaning of line integration.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 05:20:18 am by HuronKing »
 
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Offline aetherist

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1473 on: March 06, 2022, 07:47:55 am »
I don’t invoke aetherwind to explain the Faraday Disc Paradox, i invoke aether.
Oh right, of course, how silly of me. The aether is static when you need it to be and blowing when you need it to be. Who needs consistency in a theory when you're making it up as you go along without a shred of mathematics?
  Yes the aether is always blowing hence there is always an aetherwind. But sometimes i simply mention the aether, but i am fully aware that an in depth analysis if it gets that far will probably involve the aetherwind.
Quote
I see that Feynman waves away the catastrophe by simply saying that a magnetic field can't move. Here he is agreeing that a magnetic field is static in the aether.
The material is probably too advanced if that was your takeaway.
Those words were Feynman's.
Quote
I doubt that Einsteinist's can explain away their catastrophe for the Faraday Disc Paradox by invoking GTR. However Einsteinists have an almost limitless menu of fudges twists tricks etc. The youtube i linked mentions about 6 different motions of the discs & probes. I doubt that GTR can explain even one of them.

But lets eliminate GTR by changing the spinning discs to non-spinning discs. We remove the axles. Now instead of spinning the discs we simply move them up or down either individually or together or in opposite directions, hence we have the same number of 6 different motions, & we will see the same kinds of voltages, & there is no possibility of GTR playing a role here in any way.
Are you sure? Have you done this experiment? Do you have any idea what the difference is between a rotating non-inertial reference frame and an inertial reference frame?

I havnt done the experiment. I think there are 8 combinations of motions. I would put money on the outcome. But the positioning of the probes might not be simple.

There is in a sense no difference tween a rotating non-inertial reference frame & an inertial reference frame, in that both are irrelevant to a magnetic field.
I'm going to jump ahead to something else you said to someone else because it's relevant,
Quote
I havnt studied the KVL Lewin saga. But from what i have seen it appears to me that Lewin is wrong, & Mehdi & Co are correct.
Not that I wish to dredge up the pseudoscience of Mehdi and Co. in this thread - but it is not surprising you don't understand relativity in the Faraday Disc and also agree with Mehdi and Co.
I say this because what's tricky about the Faraday Disc is that it is a rotating field - i.e. it is a non-conservative field so it also exhibits path-dependency.

Now I admit I stated this is a GR phenomena and referred you to Panofsky & Philips who themselves would refer you to Schiff so maybe you want more details. For that - I'd suggest this paper but the mathematics are ghastly and if you're weak in calculus this will just make your eyes bleed:
"Charged Particles and the Electro-Magnetic Field in Non-Inertial Frames of Minkowski Spacetime: II. Applications: Rotating Frames, Sagnac Effect, Faraday Rotation, Wrap-up Effect"
https://arxiv.org/pdf/0908.0215.pdf
If this is too hard (let's be real, it is very hard), then try these introductory texts on the trickiness of rotating reference frames:
https://phys.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Relativity/Book%3A_Special_Relativity_(Crowell)/08%3A_Rotation/8.01%3A_Rotating_Frames_of_Reference
https://phys.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Relativity/Supplemental_Modules_(Relativity)/Miscellaneous_Relativity_Topics/GENERAL_RELATIVITY_-_a_primer

STR is rubbish, Minkowski spacetime is rubbish. The Silberstein GTR explanation for the Sagnac Effect deserves some respect koz i respect Silberstein.
Magnetic fields are static in the aether, ie they cant rotate, koz magnetic fields cant go sideways (ie they cant crab or sidle). However i suppose that we can make a pseudo-rotating field, which appears to rotate.
And honestly, before getting all worked up about the Faraday Disc, which is an immensely complex problem, the solution to the disc is wrapped up in the same solution that the two links above are really driving at - solving the Ehrenfest Paradox (the solution to which motivated the creation of General Relativity).
The aether solution to the Faraday Disc Paradox is simple (it aint an immensely complex problem). Except of course we don’t know what the aether is, & we don’t know what magnetism is (& we don’t know much about anything).

The Ehrenfest Paradox is interesting. I think that it deserves to be called a paradox, but the solution is simple. A spinning disc will suffer a shrinkage of the atoms & molecules along its circumference due to relativistic length contraction, whilst its radius is not much affected. Hence the disc can suffer radial cracks (which solves the paradox)(no GTR needed)(GTR solved a problem that did not exist). However, centrifugal forces would destroy a disc before the peripheral speed got to say c/50,000.
There has been quite a bit of literature written on the electrodynamics of rotating reference frames. This isn't even the tip of the tip of the iceberg:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0031891464901065?via%3Dihub
A part of that iceberg is Cohn's electrodynamics, which preceded Einstein's, Einstein even used Cohn's heading, & then Einstein did not mention Cohn in his index.
And I'm not terribly interested in parsing your interpretation of Biot-Savart and Ampere. I'm much more persuaded by the fact that we can start with Lorentz transformations and Gauss' Law and use relativity to derive Ampere's Law mathematically:
https://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/tong/em/el4.pdf
I don’t know why Einsteinist's keep invoking the Lorentz transformations, when they should be invoking the Einstein transformations. The two are different in that the terms have different meanings. I suspect that in the early days Einstein was aware that using the Lorentz name added wt to Einstein's silly STR.

But if u are referring to the relativistic explanation for the magnetic field near an electric wire then i have already shown in this thread that that explanation is wrong/impossible.
@bsfeechannel - if you're reading this, then the links above are utterly fascinating to me as the circular train clock synchronization scenario reminds me of line integration around a circulating magnetic field adding up to non-zero EMF as predicted by Faraday's Law. The synchronization of the clocks is also non-zero. In the second link, even though Clocks 1 and 2 are both on they disk, both rotating at the same rate, they do not read the same times after circumventing different closed paths. It gives me a lot of amazing things to ponder about the physical meaning of line integration.
I can save u a lot of trouble. The time anywhere on the disc is the same. The only time that exists is the present instant, & this is universal. The ticking of clocks however is affected by motion etc. But ticking is not time.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 07:58:31 am by aetherist »
 

Offline HuronKing

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #1474 on: March 06, 2022, 09:38:32 am »
Those words were Feynman's.

This isn't what he said at all - or at least without citing page and reference I don't know what you're talking about. Feynman did write this,
Quote from: Feynman 13-6
Electric and magnetic forces are part of one physical phenomenon—the electromagnetic interactions of particles. The separation of this interaction into electric and magnetic parts depends very much on the reference frame chosen for the description. But a complete electromagnetic description is invariant; electricity and magnetism taken together are consistent with Einstein’s relativity.

Since electric and magnetic fields appear in different mixtures if we change our frame of reference, we must be careful about how we look at the fields E and B. For instance, if we think of “lines” of E or B, we must not attach too much reality to them. The lines may disappear if we try to observe them from a different coordinate system. For example, in system S′ there are electric field lines, which we do not find “moving past us with velocity v in system S.” In system S there are no electric field lines at all! Therefore it makes no sense to say something like: When I move a magnet, it takes its field with it, so the lines of B are also moved. There is no way to make sense, in general, out of the idea of “the speed of a moving field line.” The fields are our way of describing what goes on at a point in space. In particular, E and B tell us about the forces that will act on a moving particle. The question “What is the force on a charge from a moving magnetic field?” doesn’t mean anything precise. The force is given by the values of E and B at the charge, and the formula (13.1) is not to be altered if the source of E or B is moving (it is the values of E and B that will be altered by the motion). Our mathematical description deals only with the fields as a function of x, y, z, and t with respect to some inertial frame.

We will later be speaking of “a wave of electric and magnetic fields travelling through space,” as, for instance, a light wave. But that is like speaking of a wave travelling on a string. We don’t then mean that some part of the string is moving in the direction of the wave, we mean that the displacement of the string appears first at one place and later at another. Similarly, in an electromagnetic wave, the wave travels; but the magnitude of the fields change. So in the future when we—or someone else—speaks of a “moving” field, you should think of it as just a handy, short way of describing a changing field in some circumstances.

Emphasis mine. And what he's talking about there is an introduction to quantum field theory.

Quote
There is in a sense no difference tween a rotating non-inertial reference frame & an inertial reference frame, in that both are irrelevant to a magnetic field.

Apparently you also flunked Newtonian mechanics. Understanding non-inertial reference frames is DEEPLY important to understanding how magnetism works in all the situations we may encounter it. There is an analogy between the Coriolis Effect and magnetism (see links below). Of course Special Relativity and General Relativity don't make sense to you - you don't get when the postulates of Special Relativity are applicable. By defining inertial frames, we also have to define non-inertial frames.

Why is the magnetic force similar to a Coriolis force?
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1109/1109.3624.pdf

Coriolis and Magnetic Forces: The Gyrocompass and Magnetic Compass as Analogues
https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/21/068/21068614.pdf

Skipping the stuff where you just repeat nonsense about STR being rubbish...

Quote
The aether solution to the Faraday Disc Paradox is simple (it aint an immensely complex problem). Except of course we don’t know what the aether is, & we don’t know what magnetism is (& we don’t know much about anything).

You haven't actually proposed anything about what that 'solution' is. Again, pseudoscience.

I'm glad to know you have a solution that you don't know what it is or how to explain it.  :-DD

I know you're not learning anything but I hope whoever is reading this is.

Quote
The Ehrenfest Paradox is interesting. I think that it deserves to be called a paradox, but the solution is simple. A spinning disc will suffer a shrinkage of the atoms & molecules along its circumference due to relativistic length contraction, whilst its radius is not much affected. Hence the disc can suffer radial cracks (which solves the paradox)(no GTR needed)(GTR solved a problem that did not exist). However, centrifugal forces would destroy a disc before the peripheral speed got to say c/50,000.

Oh... my... God... you can't even articulate what the paradox is. Hint: the paradox arises from idealized geometry and rigid bodies. It's not just the disc that gets destroyed - it's Euclidean geometry... which leads directly to General Relativity. And in that world rotating discs are just fine but your brain gets destroyed.  >:D

Quote
I don’t know why Einsteinist's keep invoking the Lorentz transformations, when they should be invoking the Einstein transformations. The two are different in that the terms have different meanings. I suspect that in the early days Einstein was aware that using the Lorentz name added wt to Einstein's silly STR.

But if u are referring to the relativistic explanation for the magnetic field near an electric wire then i have already shown in this thread that that explanation is wrong/impossible.

Because one can start with the principle of relativity and derive the Lorentz Transformations. Again - this is part of the predictive power of relativity. From first principles, theoretical predictions led to the observation of real phenomena. Feynman made note of this,
https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_15.html
Quote from: Feynman
For those who want to learn just enough about it so they can solve problems, that is all there is to the theory of relativity—it just changes Newton’s laws by introducing a correction factor to the mass. From the formula itself it is easy to see that this mass increase is very small in ordinary circumstances. If the velocity is even as great as that of a satellite, which goes around the earth at 5 mi/sec, then v/c=5/186,000: putting this value into the formula shows that the correction to the mass is only one part in two to three billion, which is nearly impossible to observe. Actually, the correctness of the formula has been amply confirmed by the observation of many kinds of particles, moving at speeds ranging up to practically the speed of light. However, because the effect is ordinarily so small, it seems remarkable that it was discovered theoretically before it was discovered experimentally. Empirically, at a sufficiently high velocity, the effect is very large, but it was not discovered that way. Therefore it is interesting to see how a law that involved so delicate a modification (at the time when it was first discovered) was brought to light by a combination of experiments and physical reasoning. Contributions to the discovery were made by a number of people, the final result of whose work was Einstein’s discovery.

It's the combination of theoretical prediction leading to experimental verification that makes relativity so persuasive and powerful. It is why everyone who does real physics is an "Einsteinist" as you derisively say. Because it gets results. And where engineers need it... it works, beautifully. And as a mechanism for tying together so many phenomena it is elegant in its statements but complex in its application.

Whereas whatever aether theory you're peddling has no predictive power, no explanatory power, no consistency, no observability, and thus no usage in engineering. It's not even consistent with the other crackpots you admire which is one of the interesting things about crackpots - none of them agree with each other but they are ALL certain the rest of the world is in a conspiracy against them as you said in this thread many pages ago.

Coming back to it - is there a device I can build that needs aether theory to work? Does your aetherwind affect the outcomes of any experiments? Can anyone use it to build something no one else has predicted? No modern independent experiment in our Solar System where aetherwind might be important has ever needed it.

And probably the greatest tragedy here is how much time you've wasted on it when you could've learned some vector calculus. It's quite a shame really - if anything represents the ultimate evolution of an 'aether' theory it's the formulation of curved spacetime as described by General Relativity and quantum fields as described by Quantum Electrodynamics and some physicists do take that viewpoint that the term 'aether' gets a bad rap given what it's 19th century failure grew into. (I'm personally fine burying the 'aether' term because it's less confusing. For example, even though Newtonian Optics has similarities to QED, we don't use terms like "corpuscles" to describe light... we call them photons...)



But, to you, STR, GTR and QFT is all rubbish... ah well... I guess you won't be playing nice in the sandbox.  :-//

Quote
I can save u a lot of trouble. The time anywhere on the disc is the same. The only time that exists is the present instant, & this is universal. The ticking of clocks however is affected by motion etc. But ticking is not time.

We already know you live in another universe. No need to remind us.

I'm going to try to respond less to this thread because I have actual post-graduate homework to do but I suppose I should say thank you for giving me the opportunity to sharpen my 'Einsteinian' propaganda and hopefully share some useful knowledge to the silent observers in this thread.

You can have the last word for now because I know you must have it in order to repeat your religious devotion to an obsolete 19th century theory. Long-live phlogiston!  >:D
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 10:00:59 am by HuronKing »
 
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