Author Topic: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?  (Read 263977 times)

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Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #150 on: November 22, 2021, 01:49:10 pm »
Nothing controversial there.  At AC, the fields drop to near zero just under the surface of the conductor; there is a nonzero amount in the surface, given by the boundary condition that the fields be continuous exactly at the surface (note, the direction and magnitude of E differs, effectively by refraction; D and B are equal, E and H are refracted).  Therefore the Poynting vector slopes inward slightly -- which is to say, the wire is dissipating some power.  Obvious enough, right?

As frequency drops, the skin depth grows; also note that dI/dt drops, so E is smaller, and so is the vector (magnitude).  The active volume is larger, so losses may go up; on the other hand, the cross section is larger, so the overall resistance and therefore losses may go down.  (Basically, skin effect is a 1/sqrt(f) phenomenon, so depending on which linear proportion dominates, it can get better or worse with frequency.  Inductors for example tend to have a point of maximum Q, dropping off gently either side of that, as competing effects of skin effect and core loss tend to dominate.  For a terminated transmission line of given length, losses generally go as sqrt(f), but loss per wavelength goes as 1/sqrt(f).  So, depends how you count it.)

All the way down at DC, the electric field fully permeates the material (infinite skin depth), however because dI/dt = 0, the EMF is zero, so E is very small now -- only the resistive dropping component remains.  Which means the Poynting vector is parallel to the wire, but also inside it -- pointing at itself, as it were.  So yes, it's still dissipating power, in relation to its resistance anyways.

Now, for a superconductor, skin depth effectively persists all the way down to DC (which is another way of stating the Meissner effect).  The depth is mediated not by frequency, but by quantum process -- on the order of the Debye length in the material (10s of nm) I think.  Or maybe it's 100s, I forget, but anyway, it's very thin.  So, whether the Poynting vector is pointing at the material or not, is arguable in this case; we might prefer another approach, since after all, why do you care about integrating minuscule shell layers around macroscopic conductors* when something much more numerically stable / analytically tractable would give the same result?

*To be fair, SC cables are made of extremely fine strands, for exactly this reason, which may then be embedded within a more convenient matrix (such as copper).  (It's Litz for DC!)  But it works out the same whether the strands are 1mm or 1um dia., embedded or free (after all, the matrix carries zero current at DC, when the SC has infinite times lower resistance than it!).  The external field is just more spread out in the finely-stranded case.

Also, superconductors might not be perfectly ideal, like how type II exhibits flux pinning (basically AC loss manifest as hysteresis -- I don't know that this is a physically relevant explanation of it, but functionally at least, it's similar to magnetic hysteresis, with internal current flows / flux paths being analogous to shifts of magnetic domains).


Also also, back to the RF model of things -- it's still perfectly consistent to represent the system as a superposition of waves propagating in both directions.  If we have waves building up, then even if the dynamics decay to steady state, we can still model that as the source transmitting however many multiples of itself, and the load reflecting back one less than that, or whatever.  It may not be very practical to model an open-circuit battery as constantly driving full power into an open-circuit transmission line and having it immediately reflected back in-phase nearly 100%; but it's still consistent to do so. :-+

Tim
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 01:52:03 pm by T3sl4co1l »
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Offline Kalvin

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #151 on: November 22, 2021, 01:50:42 pm »
It may be possible to explain the current flow in DC steady state as the following simplified explanation: There is a longitudinal electrical potential gradient in the conductor, and the electrons are passing charge from one electron to another, like passing buckets of water from a person to another when putting out a fire: Although the people do not move, the water gets passed through. Only full buckets will be passed through the chain (as a charge is quantized). In a wire, the charge is passed from one electron to another at the speed determined by the wire's electrical properties. Electromagnetic field-theory will provide more accurate explanation and model for the current flow in conductor(s) in DC steady state as well.

Yep, that's called charge conduction, and it happens inside the wire.

Maxwell's equations are the rule. However, for practical engineering work it has been useful to simplify these Maxwell's equations into some special cases like:

- Static electrical field, DC current is 0.
- Constant DC current > 0.
- Low frequency AC signals 50Hz/60Hz etc.
- Audio AC signals.
- RF signals.
- Step/pulse-like signals.
- etc.

Without these simplifications it would be really difficult to make simple, practical calculations, because we would have to calculate the results using Maxwell's equations. Typically Maxwell's equations may not have even useful closed form solution, and they need to be approximated using numerical methods.

DC-model is just a simplification, and it doesn't rule out the EM-model. And EM-model is just a simplification, and it doesn't rule out DC-model.

What about a step signal superimposed onto a DC current? Or, RF-signal superimposed on 100A DC-current. I guess that modeling these situations require both the DC-model and the EM-model.
 

Offline sandalcandal

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #152 on: November 22, 2021, 01:55:22 pm »
Have to say. These are some fantastic explanations and explorations being posted by people :clap: Much better than my own attempts.

Edit: Dave, you could always try the explorational/learn along type video if this is more than you'd want to present authoritatively.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 01:59:03 pm by sandalcandal »
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Offline aneevuser

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #153 on: November 22, 2021, 02:16:52 pm »
Having skimmed the whole of this thread, I'm wondering if Mr Veritasium has achieved the impossible: has he found a worthy successor to the perennial "is a BJT voltage controlled or current controlled" question that has powered the Interwebs for the past 20 years or so? I've got a feeling this energy thing is gonna run and run.

[Voltage controlled. *gavel*]
 

Offline Kalvin

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #154 on: November 22, 2021, 02:26:09 pm »
Having skimmed the whole of this thread, I'm wondering if Mr Veritasium has achieved the impossible: has he found a worthy successor to the perennial "is a BJT voltage controlled or current controlled" question that has powered the Interwebs for the past 20 years or so? I've got a feeling this energy thing is gonna run and run.

[Voltage controlled. *gavel*]

How about placing a PN-junction into changing magnetic field, creating Hall-field in PN-junction? The changing magnetic field is then inducing current in the PN-junction without external voltage, which should also apply to BJT. Thus, my vote is for current controlled both. >:D
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #155 on: November 22, 2021, 02:26:36 pm »
That's not the same schematic.  The switch must be near battery, not near bulb, like this:



If you place the switch near the battery, like Veritasium did, you'll get a much funnier response.

Either way, LTSpice or any other SPICE based simulators are not physics simulators, they are not aware of the speed of light.  They can only simulate lumped circuits where everything propagates instantaneously.

     For any doubters out there,  never mind that the wire loops at each end at the 1/2 light second distance.  Even if the ends were open, the lamp would still receive power in the time it takes light to travel 1 meter from switch & battery to lamp the moment the switch is turned on.  You are looking at a huge transformer or antenna with on side transmit and the other receive.  Without the wires connected at each end, it's just that with a DC power source, the lamp would turn on, then run out of power after a second whereas having the loop shorted on the left and right side means the light would stay on with DC power.  Feeding AC tuned to the wire length means the light would stay on without the ends connected.

My thinking is along similar lines, in that, initially, the two end connections are so far away, both in distance & time, as to look like open circuits.
The Electromagnetic field propagates across the 1 metre gap & lights the lamp.
As soon as the initial switch on transient ceases, that form of propagation no longer exists, & the lamp continues to light due to normal DC connections.

Of course, the lamp has to be perfect, or it won't light in the time suggested.

The fact that the drawing looks like a transmission line is a red herring!

Unfortunately for the explanation in the video, real power systems are transmission lines.
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #156 on: November 22, 2021, 03:02:50 pm »
Having skimmed the whole of this thread, I'm wondering if Mr Veritasium has achieved the impossible: has he found a worthy successor to the perennial "is a BJT voltage controlled or current controlled" question that has powered the Interwebs for the past 20 years or so? I've got a feeling this energy thing is gonna run and run.

[Voltage controlled. *gavel*]
Power controlled!
 

Offline daqq

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #157 on: November 22, 2021, 03:16:28 pm »
Okay, can we verify this by practical hobby level means? Obviously not with one light seconds of wire, but, say, a 1km sized loop should add a delay, add a LED on each side, measure light level with high speed light sensor, you should get the difference. Could be a great video for Dave ;)
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Online bdunham7

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #158 on: November 22, 2021, 03:55:45 pm »
The fact that the drawing looks like a transmission line is a red herring!

Unfortunately for the explanation in the video, real power systems are transmission lines.

Whatever the effect, nobody is surprised that transient current flow on one side results in a some signal on the other side.  Perhaps more than my initial offhand guess based on the 1 meter distance, but noone is denying there will be 'something'.  The part where I stopped paying attention is when he started implying that this is related to power transmission.  Power lines are not functioning as transmission lines (even though they are sometimes called exactly that) unless they are hundreds of miles in length for one segment. The complexity of modeling AC power distribution lines goes way beyond a standard transmission line and calculations similar to what you would use for a system in the transmission line domain are used simply because the power levels are enormous and even small effects can count.

As for the whole 'energy flows through the fields around the line', those EM fields from power lines are mostly parasitic losses, not the mode of energy transportation.  If it were all in the fields, as Dave pointed out, the composition and possibly diameter of the line wouldn't matter.   A pair of steel clotheslines 18" apart would suffice. 
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Online bdunham7

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #159 on: November 22, 2021, 03:57:55 pm »
Okay, can we verify this by practical hobby level means? Obviously not with one light seconds of wire, but, say, a 1km sized loop should add a delay, add a LED on each side, measure light level with high speed light sensor, you should get the difference. Could be a great video for Dave ;)

I think you could do it with a few hundred feet of AWG 12 wire and some sawhorses.  I have all that but it won't be me....

I'm sure that Mr. Veritaseum already has something like that planned for his adoring fans.  Just as soon as he gets another sucker to make a $10K bet.
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Offline Per Hansson

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #160 on: November 22, 2021, 04:34:39 pm »
I skimmed the thread so sorry if this was already mentioned:
If you found a way to change the state of a light bulb faster than or at the speed of light then you should patent that solution!
Billions are spent on laying communication cables, and they transmit only at a fraction of the speed of light, at best 0.63x I believe.
The only promising (mind bending) thing that gets around this is quantum entanglement, but I didn't hear that being discussed in the video?

Therefore I propose that the simple explanation given at the start of the thread is correct:
The light bulb turns on quicker than one might model because power is already flowing in the wires up to the point of the switch.
So the power only has to bridge the small gap in the switch, not the whole distance as shown in the drawing.

I therefore propose the following change: use a SPDT relay, 1 meter long and connect both wires to it.
So the far side will be without power when the battery is connected to the circuit.
Then flip the switch and see how long it takes the bulb to switch on?
Note: the relay may also be exchanged for a quantum entangled switch.
 

Offline Kalvin

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #161 on: November 22, 2021, 05:27:14 pm »
But once you hit steady state DC, is the ENERGY transported in the electromagnetic field?

I'd say that's more of a philosophical question than a strictly scientific one.

If you choose to use Poynting vectors to answer that question, you'd find that yes, even in DC, the interior of the (superconducting) wire is devoid of an E gradient so it is not carrying power, yet the space around the wire has both E and H (even in steady state), and therefore Poynting vectors. So from the perspective of maxwell's equations, even in DC, the EM field around the wires is carrying the power in some sense.

But energy is flowing, how does it flow? What's doing the moving at DC?

Quote
Oh, and I'm ignoring your distinction between power and energy. One is just the other integrated over time, that doesn't make any meaningful difference if we're talking about a system that's in steady state anyway.

But power is being continuously delivered from the source to the load under steady state conditions. How if the magnetic field is not moving?

Bolding above is mine.

Physics 101:

1. There won't be a magnetic field present if there isn't any charge moving along the conductor: This applies when the switch is open and the system is in steady state. That is pretty obvious, and this can be observed pretty easily with a compass.

2. There will be a magnetic field present when there is a current flowing in a conductor. This applies when the switch is closed and the system has reached its steady state: There will be a constant charge/energy flowing in a conductor, and therefore there will also be a magnetic field around the conductor. This can also be verified experimentally with a compass. Every kid knows how to create a magnet with a battery and a piece wire.

Is this magnetic field moving or is it stationary?

We can make a simple experiment by adding a loop of wire around a conductor (inductive current sniffer), and hooking this loop to an oscilloscope.

When the system is in steady state and there is a constant current flowing in the conductor, oscilloscope shows a straight line of zero volts because the current is not changing, the magnetic field is not changing, and no voltage is induced to our current sniffer. From Physics 101 part 2 above, we know that there is a "static" magnetic field present around a conductor, though.

Now, let's send a short current transition/pulse into the cable. We can calculate the propagation time of the pulse in the cable. We can also observe a pulse appearing on the oscilloscope's display at the calculated propagation time. This means that there must have been a moving magnetic field along the charge/pulse flowing in the conductor.

Because there is charge/current flowing in a conductor also in steady state, there must also be a moving magnetic field moving along with this charge.  Since the current (ie. the rate of charge flowing in the conductor) is constant, the amplitude of this magnetic field will also stay unchanged, so it will appear as if this magnetic field is not moving.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 06:18:02 pm by Kalvin »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #162 on: November 22, 2021, 05:36:40 pm »
@Per Hansson: Sorry if I misunderstood you, but I'm not sure you completely got the point made in the video.

I'm also not sure I get this part: "power is already flowing in the wires up to the point of the switch"
If the circuit is open, then no power is flowing. Or is there?

That's how I find the "water flow" analogy misleading when applied to electricity. Unlike water behind a closed faucet, electric power is not pushing against the open switch. There is no power flowing until the switch is closed. But, sorry again if I misunderstood what you said.
 

Offline snarkysparky

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #163 on: November 22, 2021, 05:55:33 pm »
Energy is not transferred in the space between the conductors.  Because it is a steady state DC system.  Yes theoretically there is no such thing as a DC system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynting%27s_theorem

gives an expression for the Poynting vector:

which physically means the energy transfer due to time-varying electric and magnetic fields is perpendicular to the fields

The equations in the Wiki all have partial derivatives WRT time.

At the initial switch on there are transient movement of energy in the fields between the wires.    That this could lite the lamp immediately is due to the capacitance between the wires of the long transmission lines.

If you pick up a permanent magnet and wave it about you are transmitting a tiny amount of energy out to the universe via the changing spatial magnetic field you created.   Like paddling the water.







 

Offline sharow

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #164 on: November 22, 2021, 06:01:53 pm »
This is just line capacitor I think.
https://www.eeeguide.com/capacitance-of-a-single-phase-two-wire-line/

for r=2.5[mm], D=1[m], came out C=4.64[pF/m]. which mean, 1 light second wire pair is about 1400[uF].
He use 12V car battery, so 1/2*C*V^2 is 100[mW] charge capacity.
I don't think this lit up 100W light bulb. LED maybe?
(line capacitor is charged up before switch on. so light bulb can lit up momentary.)

but, transmission line on the ground is few times higher capacitance. so I dunno.
 

Online IanB

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #165 on: November 22, 2021, 06:20:03 pm »
I'll say it explicity in case it's not clear what I'm getting at. The Veritasium video is all about the power/energy flowing outside the wire.
At DC that doesn't happen, it's inside the wire. Whatever physics mechanism you want to use the describe that doesn't matter, because whilst there is an external magnetic field around the wire at DC, it's not moving. And therefore by definition the mechanism of power transfer must hence be inside the wire.

About the moving/not moving question relating to the DC magnetic field.

There is a simple analogy for this. Consider a motor/generator arrangement, with a cylindrical shaft connecting them. Apparently, the rotating shaft is conveying power from the motor to the generator.

But now, suppose the shaft is entirely uniform in its internal structure and external appearance. The surface is absolutely smooth and free of blemishes. In this state, any rotational position of the shaft is identical to any other position. If you close your eyes and someone rotates the shaft, you cannot tell afterwards if, or by how much the shaft has rotated, because it is completely and 100% uniform in every way.

This leads to an interesting situation. Nothing is changing in any measurable way, and yet, somehow, power is being transferred from the motor to the generator without any observable movement in the system. If the only thing you are allowed to observe is the shaft, you cannot tell if, or how much, power is being transferred at any instant. The flow of energy cannot be seen or measured while it is in transit. It can only be detected at the origin and destination, by its effects.

Similarly, with the DC circuit arrangement, all the fields and potentials, electrical and magnetic, are unchanging. The transfer of power does not require observable movement.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 06:22:50 pm by IanB »
 

Online TimFox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #166 on: November 22, 2021, 06:23:48 pm »
The rotating shaft with the totally uniform appearance is an example of ignoring or throwing away information to which you are entitled by physics.
A simple felt-tip pen mark on the shaft would not affect the performance of the electromechanical apparatus.
In quantum mechanics, there are examples where you are not privy to information:  for example, electrons are absolutely identical particles, while billiard balls have colors and numbers.  This affects scattering experiments, where you need to look at quantum amplitudes when calculating scattering probability magnitudes.
 

Offline Manul

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #167 on: November 22, 2021, 06:28:25 pm »
Derek's video reminded me of the famous Dr. Walter Lewin experiment with two multimeters measuring different voltages at the same circuit points. I'm sure most of you know that lecture.

With all respect to these great guys, I have suspicion, that some physicists have weird, fetishistic desire to amaze people by deliberately wrapping things in confusing and somewhat misleading way, secretly rubbing hands with a grin smile when nobody is around.

Every sane person uses hammer to put nail and saw to cut wood. Not the other way around. When people try to educate, they should think, which tool is the best, which explanation is the easiest to grasp, most on point and most useful. Divide et impera, isolate the exact phenomena, dissect it.

Dr. Lewin could have said: "you see, you haven't thought about it, but multimeter leads are part of the circuit" and go with explaining induction or whatever. That would have been a very useful and powerful concept in physics to demonstrate, that our equipment (or even us, as the observer) are always to some extent a part of experiment. And how hard (or even impossible) it can be to achieve true results. Instead he went with sort of sensationalism and obscure complex calculations, which although true are totally not the right tool if he wants to educate, more like a way of his personal satisfaction. The fact is, world is rude to us while we pursue our scientific understanding: interference, noise, Heisenberg's principle, etc. That does not mean, that we should be rude to each other though.

In my opinion, Derek should have avoided that long wire circuit "shocker", and better talked about how these fields can travel through space, describing electromagnetic waves in more depth, radio transmission, antennas, something like that. If the viewer would familiarize with that concept, long wire experiment would look much more natural. It would become easy to realize, that half loops radiate to each other and the signal apears.

All opinion.
 
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Online TimFox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #168 on: November 22, 2021, 06:47:15 pm »
I have seen neither of those videos, but the demonstration of two voltmeters connected to the same two points on different sides of a circuit excited by time-varying magnetic flux is a typical example to show the relationship between current and the EMF induced in loops by magnetic fields.  It was a question on the University of Chicago Candidacy Exam decades ago.  One student wrote down the correct answer, with a caveat "I still don't believe it".  The professor, one of the most polite and courteous members of the department, wheeled in a cart with two Simpson 260s and the rest of the equipment to demonstrate it.  During my education in physics, I ran into both kinds of eminent professors: 
Arrogant and rude.
Soft-spoken and polite.
The latter won Nobel Prizes.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #169 on: November 22, 2021, 06:51:45 pm »
Similarly, with the DC circuit arrangement, all the fields and potentials, electrical and magnetic, are unchanging. The transfer of power does not require observable movement.

Since your specialty is the flow of fluids, how about a clear pipe with unaerated perfectly clear water in it--or flowing through it, since we 'can't tell the difference'.  There surely you would certainly accept that any energy being transferred is the result of the fluid actually flowing and doing work (or having work done) against a pressure differential somewhere and not due to some mysterious flow of energy due to a static pressure in the fluid?
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Online TimFox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #170 on: November 22, 2021, 06:56:25 pm »
I liked the cheap flow indicators we used for cooling water in the lab, where a red ball orbited inside a clear plastic shell as a result of liquid flow.
The water looked the same in the clear PVC tubing going into and out of the indicators.
(We didn't measure the ball orbital speed, but just wanted to make sure there was cooling flow to avoid problems in the electromagnet.)
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #171 on: November 22, 2021, 07:15:18 pm »
Energy is not transferred in the space between the conductors.  Because it is a steady state DC system.  Yes theoretically there is no such thing as a DC system.

Well. It's a steady state DC system once it gets in a steady state.
It's not upon the close of the switch.
 

Offline acshikh

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #172 on: November 22, 2021, 07:15:45 pm »
What I'd like to see in a video from Dave:

1. Understanding what is really going on with the bulb turning on "instantly" according to the distance between the bulb and switch: (it just the capacitance).
2. Relaxing the ridiculous assumptions that make the above result seem significant (infinite impedance in the bulb, zero impedance battery, and zero resistance wire)
3. Explaining how I^2 R losses are extremely important in practice, and they DO depend on the volume of copper, and so it is still correct from an intuitive point of view to say that the copper carries current.

Of course, all of the above with the corrections of people that understand this all better than I do!
 

Offline rfeecs

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #173 on: November 22, 2021, 07:29:39 pm »
So can you draw a diagram of how the energy in this case 'flows' from the battery to the light in the steady-state DC case (with superconductors, apparently) ?

It's not so easy for my feeble brain to visualize.  The flow is out from the battery and in to the light bulb.

You would have to draw the E-field and the B-field and then the energy flow direction is E cross B.

As you go away from the battery, the E field will drop off so most of the flow is in the region close to the battery and the light.

So I made an attempt to show the "flow" according to the Poynting vector.  In my crappy drawing, S is the Poynting vector direction in red.  The highest intensity is between the battery and light.



Interesting that a tiny amount of energy seems to flow out from the battery to infinity and in from infinity to the light.  Supposedly this wraps around and some distant point.

Another way of thinking of this is that the E field is related to the voltage and the B field is related to the current.  E x B is related to V x I or power.  You can look at how energy is flowing in the circuit by looking at the power passing through various planes and seeing which side is sourcing power and which is consuming power.



So energy is flowing out of the battery but no net energy is flowing in the kilometers long loops (V=0, so P=0).  And of course energy flows into the light.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 07:31:29 pm by rfeecs »
 
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Online IanB

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #174 on: November 22, 2021, 07:36:26 pm »
Since your specialty is the flow of fluids, how about a clear pipe with unaerated perfectly clear water in it--or flowing through it, since we 'can't tell the difference'.  There surely you would certainly accept that any energy being transferred is the result of the fluid actually flowing and doing work (or having work done) against a pressure differential somewhere and not due to some mysterious flow of energy due to a static pressure in the fluid?

I think engineers try not to get too caught up in philosophical questions, because things can get complicated. We have physical models, and a framework of equations we can apply, and these models and equations give useful results that match experiment. We should never be so bold as to think the models are reality.

For the pipe system, the power transfer is calculated at the boundaries. We can calculate the work done by the surroundings to push 1 kg of water into one end of the pipe, and we can calculate the work done on the surroundings when 1 kg of water leaves the other end of the pipe. So magically, energy has been transferred from one boundary to the other. But it might be a different kg of water that came out compared to the one that went in. So the energy was not carried along the pipe by that kg of water. Perhaps we can have a model that says the energy transfer was by a combination of pressure gradients and mass fluxes, and that satisfies us.

But philosophically, if the water is entirely uniform, the state of the pipe before and after is identical. If nothing has changed in the pipe, what part did the pipe play in the exercise? Apparently the pipe is not material to the result of the calculations. Only the boundary conditions matter.
 


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