Author Topic: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?  (Read 3202 times)

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Offline Nominal AnimalTopic starter

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Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« on: August 31, 2024, 04:15:45 pm »
As I understand it, if the cable shielding is connected only to protective earth and metal enclosures, it should work well for shielding against EMI, regardless of the signal voltages, assuming insulation limits are not exceeded.

In USB and similar relatively high-frequency signaling cables, the shield is connected to ground at the host or device connector, because there is no PE connection.
Fixed Ethernet shielded twisted pair cables can have their shield connected to protective earth (PE, at the patch panel), however.

If I ensure the cables I use do not internally connect the shield to signaling (not even to signal ground), and both ends similarly connect the shield only to PE, I see no reason why this should not work well and be safe.  (I'm talking about USB, RS-232, RS-485, and similar serial communications cables.)  The only risk or downside I can see is using or connecting to devices that do connect the shield to their internal ground, so I probably should use dedicated connectors to avoid confusion.

Is my understanding correct?  Are there issues or problems with this?

 

Online wraper

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2024, 04:24:40 pm »
PE has nothing to do with shielding, nor does it help to suppress EMI. USB shield must be connected to GND (either on PCB or to grounded metal enclosure) with low inductance path on both ends regardless if there is a PE or not.
 

Offline JohanH

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2024, 04:28:00 pm »
Yes, it's irrelevant for shielding if the chassis is connected to circuit ground or PE.

Here is a simple explanation:

 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2024, 05:16:39 pm »
Consider a system like:



Black: basic diagram.  Suppose there's...

Box 1 has earth connection, and a grounded, shielded output.

Box 2 is ungrounded/floating, but don't worry, we've run a separate earth connection to the cable to "terminate" that end of the shield.  (Or left it completely hanging. Homework: how bad is each, or which is worse?).  It has a grounded shielded output.

Box 3 has a grounded, shielded input, and earth connection.

All earths collect via facility wiring back to the breaker panel and nearest ground rod.

Red: suppose there's a magnetic field within the general enclosed area of this loop.  What happens?  Namely, what current flows in the loop, what are the loop characteristics (R, L, transmission line / antenna element length, etc.), what voltage drops are distributed where around it, etc.

Box 2 inset, red highlighted: the "extra GND" does absolutely nothing at radio frequencies, the return path is spaghetti, at least several µH but 10s or even 100s might happen in a tall wood-frame building.  Most of the loop voltage drops across the input, adding directly in series with the signal received from Box 1.  Extreme noise has entered the system.

Note that, even if we're using differential signaling, we still have to worry about the common-mode voltage.  No differential receiver is truly perfect: even transformers have limited CMRR (varies with frequency) and breakdown voltage, and most (semiconductor) receivers have a limited range, for example 10-30V for RS-422/RS-485/CAN, between supplies for most others (instrumentation amps, general purpose diff amps, LVDS receivers, etc.).  So the CMR (CM range) might be hardly a volt (e.g. 3.3V supplies, biased in the middle) in a very typical (low voltage analog or digital receiver) case.

And, what we need to protect against, ranges from a couple volts CW RF (commercial immunity test levels), up to 10kV transients (ESD), give or take how much we need to withstand those transients -- maybe we don't mind if the signal gets momentarily corrupted, or even if the equipment gets disrupted (requires power cycle), but high-reliability applications might even mind the additive noise.

Box 3, purple highlighted: whatever loop the input cable is a part of (actually none as shown, due to the above gap, but we can imagine an "extra GND" applied in the same way at the Box 2 output if needed), its current is shunted to ground around the circuit, and noise voltage is greatly reduced.  How much it's reduced, depends on the impedance of that shield-to-ground link.  Down at audio frequencies, we might be concerned that nothing is inductive, i.e. we don't obtain coupling value from the cables, they don't behave as transmission lines, or transformers*, and thus the resistance of those paths (including the cable shield itself) all have some voltage drop that manifests as a V_N in series with the input signal.

*To a certain degree, transformers are transmission lines; certainly, they can be built directly using them.  The space of possible (practical or otherwise) transformers is much wider than that of practical transmission lines, I would say, and so too the range of possible response or behavior; especially in terms of nonlinearity, when core materials are involved in various tricky ways.  But we can restrict our consideration to the set of better-behaved transformers, that are transmission-line-ey, without much loss of generality for signal and EMC analysis purposes.

The most important thing about earthing, for EMC purposes, is, if the lead length is long, its effect is negligible, and for example, breaking the connection between cable shield and circuit reference plane or enclosure, introduces the full amplitude of whatever madness is going on outside that closed system.

Put another way, the shield is an extension of the enclosure around the circuit, and presumably, the circuit is bonded to that enclosure to make best use of it (lest the circuit's internal current loops and voltage drops corrupt the signals exiting different points on the board).  Topologically, it doesn't matter what the shape of the enclosure is, just as long as it's conductive and thick enough to enclose and contain fields within.  This includes the act of opening holes into the enclosure, to a limited extent: we can treat an opening as a radiation port (port: a datum through which energy flows in and out; usually a pointlike node, such as a connector, or a cross-section on a cable), and rather than having total isolation as in the ideal case, we simply have a degraded but still largely satisfactory case (maybe the shielding effectiveness is min 40dB over frequencies of interest, but it's still fine given what the circuit does and what levels it's tested at).  We can go further and open whole sides of the enclosure, exposing the PCB ground plane as its own enclosure wall; as long as signals and components are arranged at only short distances away from that surface, we get microstrip trace geometry with reasonable performance (for commercial levels).  This is a transformational way to understand how a PCB can be useful by itself without additional shielding.

Tim
« Last Edit: August 31, 2024, 05:29:42 pm by T3sl4co1l »
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2024, 09:02:13 pm »
talking about USB, RS-232, RS-485, and similar serial communications cables

Note these 3 are different in regards to the physical layer
- USB uses a differential pair, 3.3V and voltage controlled.  A differential pair means two single ended connections, just that when one wire is 0V the other wire is 3.3V and the other way around, so 2 signal wires (D+ and D-) and a GND.
- RS-232 uses single ended signals +/- 5...15V, also voltage controlled, so a wire plus a GND for each Tx, Rx, RTS, CTS, etc. signal
- RS-485 uses a differential pair which is in fact a current loop.  That makes it much faster than RS-232.  485 is good for much longer distances, and is way more resilient to noises - often used in industrial environment (which is considered very noisy) to interconnect SCADA equipment over up to 1km+, or in the entertainment industry for DMX512 (to control light shows and alike scene equipment in open air concerts or in theaters), or inside PCs for the SCSI bus (SCSI disks), etc.

By contrast with USB or 232, the 485 can work with only 2 wires, A and B (only a twisted pair of 2 wires, and apparently no GND or shielding), though the standard allows a 3rd wire, C, as a GND.

In all 3 (USB or 232 or 485) the shielding (if there is any) is yet another connection, apart from the existing GND wire(s).



The 5 minutes video chat with Rick Hartley is correct, it answers the question and gives some explanation, but even if you think you fully got it, you may want to watch this full talk (same guy):

[LIVE] How to Achieve Proper Grounding - Rick Hartley - Expert Live Training (US)
Altium


Seriously, don't skip that, and don't stop at the small mocking/rants moments at the beginning.  Watch it in full, even if it's more than 2 hours (1 hour at 2x speed).  Highly recommended.

Keep in mind that the talk is mostly about designing good PCBs, with less EMI emissions, and with good immunity to noises, so the discussed issues are in this spirit, mostly against problems in the MHz to GHz range (and mostly for digital equipment), but the same principles applies to mains hum and low frequency, or for low analog signals, too.  The topics are broader than only earthing, might be tempting to skip, but don't skip, watch it in full.

If you prefer a book, the 2.5 hours live seminar by Rick Hartley is based on the book "Fast Circuit Boards - Energy Management" by Ralph Morrison (IIRC one of his mentors).  Again, just like the live talk with a small rant, the book style is not very academic, yet (from an engineering perspective) it might bring to the reader more understanding than a 1k pages reference textbook about electromagnetism.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2024, 09:30:03 pm by RoGeorge »
 
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Offline DiTBho

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2024, 09:24:29 pm »
book: Grounding and Shielding, 6th edition,  Ralph Morrison
The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow
 

Online tooki

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2024, 10:12:26 pm »
- USB uses a differential pair, 3.3V and voltage controlled.  A differential pair means two single ended connections, just that when one wire is 0V the other wire is 3.3V and the other way around, so 2 signal wires (D+ and D-) and a GND.
...
- RS-485 uses a differential pair which is in fact a current loop.  That makes it much faster, good for long distances, and way more resilient to noises - often used in industrial environment (which is considered very noisy) to interconnect SCADA equipment over up to 1km+, or in the entertainment industry for DMX512 (to control light shows and alike scene equipment in open air concerts or in theaters), or inside PCs for the SCSI bus (SCSI disks), etc.

By contrast with USB or 232, the 485 can work with only 2 wires, A and B (only a twisted pair of 2 wires, and apparently no GND or shielding), though the standard allows a 3rd wire, C, as a GND.
I have never, ever heard of RS-485 referred to as a current loop, and my understanding of it, having implemented and debugged RS-485 interfaces, is that it uses differential voltages just like USB: one is at 0V when the other is high, and vice versa.

What are reasonably common are converters between RS-485 and 4-20mA current loops.

Because of the differential signaling, the amount of current flowing in the cable is always the same. In current loop signaling, the amount of current itself is modulated to carry information.

Furthermore, while RS-485 is often used without a ground, this is noncompliant and relies on some form of return path existing. As Texas Instruments succinctly puts it:
Quote from: RS-422 and RS-485 Standards Overview and System Configurations
Ground Connections
Commonly RS-422 and RS-485 system configurations are presented without a separate ground wire. Laws of physics, however, still require a solid ground connection to ensure error-free communication between drivers and receivers.
(Emphasis mine.)

The RS485-MODBUS standard (one extremely common use of RS-485) leaves no room for interpretation:
Quote from: MODBUS over serial line specification and implementation guide V1.0
An RS485-MODBUS must use a balanced pair (for D0-D1) and a third wire (for the Common).
(Emphasis in the original.)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2024, 10:14:44 pm by tooki »
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2024, 10:16:49 pm »
Is my understanding correct?  Are there issues or problems with this?
Pretty much perfect. If you want the formal reference then it's AES48.

Attached below is a long presentation on the ins and outs by a respected specialist Bill Whitlock, names to watch for in the literature are Neil A Muncy and Henry W Ott.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2024, 10:38:51 pm »
book: Grounding and Shielding, 6th edition,  Ralph Morrison

Nice one.
Another ref. that I can recommend is "Compatibilité Electromagnétique", Alain Charoy, DUNOD. I have the original edition but it's now split into several volumes. Not sure it has been translated to English though.
 

Offline Nominal AnimalTopic starter

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2024, 08:41:28 am »
Perhaps some background is in order.

If we treat the enclosures and the outer shielding in the cables as a single continuous shield – which it would be, just oddly shaped –, the diagram simplifies to

 (click to embiggen; this is a tiny, 2944-byte SVG vector image)

With class II supplies, there are no class Y capacitors, but no connection to protective earth either.  The shield is connected to the DC GND.  This is not optimal, because capacitively coupled noise (from e.g. parallel cables) has no easy path to ground.

The red class Y capacitor exists if using class I supplies.  Because our plugs are unpolarized, they often lead to tingles, or having 120V or 240V difference between PE and DC GND potentials.  Rotating the plug 180° may or may not fix it, depending on the supply.  And I'm not sure there is any actual guarantee of one of the mains pins being "neutral", or at the same potential as protective earth.

The blue class Y capacitor is the "standard", assumed configuration in most references I've seen.  My problem is that it is just not reliably available with double-insulated supplies (or "wall warts") here in Finland; they're all two-prong only, no connection to PE at all.

My idea is to use a class II low-leakage IEC60601-1 supply like Mean Well RPS-30-7.5 filtered and regulated down to 5V, and simply add an outer shield not connected to the DC circuits at all.  Then, there are no class Y capacitors.  (I do not know if it is safe and/or legal to add the blue class Y capacitor to such supplies here, or if one would help/be needed.)

My projects are housed in cast aluminium enclosures.  I use nylon M2.5 standoffs to hold the PCB off the lid, and reserve enough room inside the enclosure for the cable connectors.  The cables go through minimum-sized U-shaped grooves with grommets between the lid and the enclosure.  I know that if I were to do this, I'd also need to use a shielded DC power cable, or it would become an antenna.

Right now, the situation is that with class II supplies there are no class Y capacitors, but any shield will be connected to the DC GND.  Because there is no easy path to protective earth (or "neutral") for electromagnetically or electrostatically coupled currents, this is suboptimal, especially with low-leakage supplies.  (I think the shielding works for EM noise, but capacitively coupled noise, and ESD, is a bit iffy.  A resistor and capacitor in parallel between the shield and DC GND might be a good idea.)
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2024, 01:34:58 pm »
AFAIK, class II supplies will still have Y caps in them, they're just to the DC bus (usually), or sometimes AC H/N as you note, which makes nonpolarized receptacles annoying.  The leakage current is safe, but the voltage is real.  A medical grade low-leakage one will be more pleasant to interact with, indeed.

Why can't this be done?



And if that's done, we collapse one connection:



now the signals are always referenced to the ground plane / cable shield, and no ground loop flows so it's good at all frequencies.

The earth connection isn't needed at all (probably) if a double-insulated supply is used, but the circuit-GND can still be connected to shield in the same way.

Tim
« Last Edit: September 01, 2024, 01:37:25 pm by T3sl4co1l »
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Offline Nominal AnimalTopic starter

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2024, 03:45:05 pm »
Why can't this be done?
It is the equivalent of just connecting one of the enclosures to a protective earth, so it can.  I'm just not convinced it is worth it.

Consider what happens when a statically charged person touches an enclosure or shield, causing an ESD event.  Those are common during dry winter nights up north; heck, even snow is triboelectric.  Add wool socks, maybe a warm pullover with blended threads, and you can easily get into the kilovolt range.

While there is a path to ground/PE for the fault current, it is a long transmission line, and because of the shield-DC GND connection the sensitive electronics are close.  Because of low voltages and currents in the DC circuits, a ground bounce is likely to result.  It is unlikely to break the MCU, but it can reset or lock it up.

This is why properly designed USB devices often have a snubber network between the DC GND and the USB shield: a resistor and a capacitor in parallel, and sometimes an additional resistor in series, between the shield and the DC GND.  You see this in many different appnotes from various manufacturers, too.  This will "low-pass filter" the ESD event, "delaying" or "spreading" it out, so it'll just flow to ground with less fuss, minimising any ground bounce.  (Apologies for using wrong or silly terms.  Me just a hobbyist here, using descriptive rather than technical terms for this, since I trust the USB chip manufacturers and haven't bothered to double-check this stuff from first principles.  I have a physics background, so the theory isn't hard; but practical devices and situations are complex, and I've found that EE experience is more reliable than a theoretical investigation. ^-^)

Specifically, I'm not convinced that using PE instead of supply ground makes much of a difference, when the supply ground and shield have such snubbers.  Fast events are slowed enough that the path to ground is effective.  It does not matter that much whether it is mains ground/neutral or PE, since there is very little current or energy in them.

What I'd like to know, if I could get the same shielding effects by using a PE shield completely isolated from the low-voltage low-current circuitry.  I cannot really do a meaningful practical tests with the equipment I have.

I wouldn't mind a class Y capacitor between PE and DC GND, if I knew how to find out if it is safe or legal.  In the diagram, this would be either no class Y capacitors at all, or the blue class Y capacitor only.  Do note that I'm working with DC supply voltages in the 5V to 12V range, no more than 5W or so.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2024, 05:07:36 pm »
Why can't this be done?
It is the equivalent of just connecting one of the enclosures to a protective earth, so it can.  I'm just not convinced it is worth it.

Consider what happens when a statically charged person touches an enclosure or shield, causing an ESD event.  Those are common during dry winter nights up north; heck, even snow is triboelectric.  Add wool socks, maybe a warm pullover with blended threads, and you can easily get into the kilovolt range.

While there is a path to ground/PE for the fault current, it is a long transmission line, and because of the shield-DC GND connection the sensitive electronics are close.  Because of low voltages and currents in the DC circuits, a ground bounce is likely to result.  It is unlikely to break the MCU, but it can reset or lock it up.
In reality it works the other way round. Short story: connect all grounds together as T3sl4co1l pictured in the second picture for best EMC performance. Having seperate grounds is asking for trouble. This is what you'll learn in any EMC course.

An ESD event has a large HF current. When you have seperated grounds, the ESD event can induce itself into your MCU ground. With everything connected to the same ground, there is nothing to induce because there is no loop area. The ESD energy will just dissipate through PE or whatever (or not at all).
« Last Edit: September 01, 2024, 05:48:37 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2024, 05:38:57 pm »
Right, but consider if one link or another is long or short.  I should've labeled them:



What then?

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Offline selcuk

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2024, 07:16:46 pm »
This is why properly designed USB devices often have a snubber network between the DC GND and the USB shield: a resistor and a capacitor in parallel, and sometimes an additional resistor in series, between the shield and the DC GND.  You see this in many different appnotes from various manufacturers, too.  This will "low-pass filter" the ESD event, "delaying" or "spreading" it out, so it'll just flow to ground with less fuss, minimising any ground bounce.  (Apologies for using wrong or silly terms.  Me just a hobbyist here, using descriptive rather than technical terms for this, since I trust the USB chip manufacturers and haven't bothered to double-check this stuff from first principles.  I have a physics background, so the theory isn't hard; but practical devices and situations are complex, and I've found that EE experience is more reliable than a theoretical investigation. ^-^)

I guess parallel RC connection is a measure for noises from low frequency magnetic fields. Separating the ground from the shield is not good for an ESD event as suggested before. You can connect the shield to ESD suppressor's ground first then to the circuit ground but that is a short between ground and shield as well. There is an application note from a manufacturer who recommends a solid connection between the ground and the shield against high frequency transients in this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/why-usb-c-gnd-is-being-connected-to-the-shield-of-the-cable-after-connecting/msg5269563/#msg5269563
 

Online wraper

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2024, 07:27:23 pm »
This is why properly designed USB devices often have a snubber network between the DC GND and the USB shield: a resistor and a capacitor in parallel, and sometimes an additional resistor in series, between the shield and the DC GND.  You see this in many different appnotes from various manufacturers, too.  This will "low-pass filter" the ESD event, "delaying" or "spreading" it out, so it'll just flow to ground with less fuss, minimising any ground bounce.  (Apologies for using wrong or silly terms.  Me just a hobbyist here, using descriptive rather than technical terms for this, since I trust the USB chip manufacturers and haven't bothered to double-check this stuff from first principles.  I have a physics background, so the theory isn't hard; but practical devices and situations are complex, and I've found that EE experience is more reliable than a theoretical investigation. ^-^)
Nope, those are random bullshit (capacitors, ferrite beads, resistors) and whoever put those components don't know what those components are supposed to do, especially considering they often have an opposite effect (capacitor vs ferrite bead). Unfortunately that bullshit found its way to some IC datasheets. Also USB-C specification explicitly forbids nonsense like that.
https://www.unit3compliance.co.uk/hdmi-more-like-hdm-why-thoughts-on-cable-shield-grounding/
« Last Edit: September 01, 2024, 07:31:44 pm by wraper »
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2024, 07:31:27 pm »
I think this stems from the old days where you'd find similar contructions around ethernet connectors. The shield of the connector is often connected to the case shield through a capacitor leaving a section of the circuit (behind the ethernet transformer) floating. The idea is that getting a lightning on the cable shield won't travel in the device (that much). However, it can be hell to get a contraption like this through modern day EMC testing. I've seen some interesting mods getting it done by adding a dedicated grounding strap to the ethernet shield to improve EMC behaviour.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2024, 08:02:36 pm »
AFAIK, in an ideal setup the ethernet cable's shield (in ethernet terminology it's called screen) should be directly connected to ground/earth at one side, and via a capacitor at the other, preventing DC ground loops while passing AC to ground/earth. And USB's shielding is a mess, broken by design (to fix issues you need USB isolators or transformer based PSUs).
 

Online wraper

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2024, 08:09:38 pm »
AFAIK, in an ideal setup the ethernet cable's shield (in ethernet terminology it's called screen) should be directly connected to ground/earth at one side, and via a capacitor at the other, preventing DC ground loops while passing AC to ground/earth. And USB's shielding is a mess, broken by design (to fix issues you need USB isolators or transformer based PSUs).
There is nothing wrong with USB shielding unless you break shield connection and introduce voodoo nonsense into it.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2024, 08:14:27 pm »
Connect two USB devices powered by SMPSU wall warts via an USB cable and have fun. ;)
 

Online wraper

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2024, 08:20:41 pm »
Connect two USB devices powered by SMPSU wall warts via an USB cable and have fun. ;)
What fun? You basically described external HDD, printer, whatever self powered device connected to laptop/PC.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2024, 08:24:20 pm »
Connect two USB devices powered by SMPSU wall warts via an USB cable and have fun. ;)
What fun? You basically described external HDD, printer, whatever self powered device connected to laptop/PC.
Yep. And USB connectors are designed so ground / shield mates first.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2024, 08:27:03 pm »
Please think about where currents could flow.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2024, 09:34:54 pm »
Please think about where currents could flow.
It does not matter whatsoever that some current will flow through the shield. Heck, with USB powered devices in most cases there will be more current flowing through the shield than that. USB-C standard demands that cables have GND pins/wires connected to the shield at both ends. The vast majority of micro USB cables also have GND wire and shield connected together although AFAIK it's not explicitly demanded by the standard.
 

Offline SteveThackery

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Re: Using PE (earth) for signal cable shield?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2024, 10:22:48 pm »


 (click to embiggen; this is a tiny, 2944-byte SVG vector image)


I've got a question about this diagram. As drawn, one side of the mains supply is connected directly to the protective earth. Isn't this a recipe for a big bang? Or at least, to trip the RCD.

Another question: what is the red 'Y' capacitor for? I'm trying to imagine why you would couple the secondary back to the primary via a capacitor.
 


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